Fuel panic!

[Las Palmas]

11 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Werthers originals 😎

Werthers Original is absolutely something that must continue to be made.

[javadude]

15 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

 I challenge anyhone who has a EV to finish ahead of me from Southampton to Edinburgh - actually that is silly, the correct phrase is how many hours behind they will be since I can do it in a full tank, when I can get an Electric car than can do that trip in one go without driving 40 mph and without costing a 6 figure sum to make the trip give me a nudge

Sounds like a fun road-trip. Shame life is too busy at the moment. According to ABRP the trip would take me 7 hr 18 min at motorway speeds in my EV, including 30 min of charging. I'd want to stop for longer than that to pee and eat during that long a drive. Cost estimated at £3.60 for charge to 100% at home and £24 on route so £28 to do 428 miles. What would that be in petrol? £100?

[dutchie01]

18 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

LENT You seem to be the type of individual who is awaiting a 5th/6th covid booster to save your family and friends without even querying all the people dead from vaccines, no? The BBC were big COVID fans but strangely are not telling us about the pay-outs going on now to victims of the vaccines, but then again if you listen to everything the science experts and government officials say then all is well in the world.

BTW: I had covid, so had my triple jabbed wife - I was better after circa 4 days, no different than the cold/flu I had pre covid - she was sick longer.

I have been hesitating in replying to this one as it is close to me and i have seen and heared these arguments before. Toffie my friend, one sighting is not evidence as we all know and according to my experience your wife could be very lucky she had three jabs as without them it could well ended way different. Covid is not thesame for everyone and bites different at different people. My wife was infected in the first wave and like you was not jabbed as these were not available then. She just made it. It took her a year and a half to get back on her feet and she still suffers from brain fog and exhaustion. You seem open to all sorts of conspiracy theories which is fine by me. hoewever It might strengthen your case if you could back your arguments up with some sort of proof. Until then i just cant take them serious. BTW Elvis is alive and lives on a remote island.

[DBIZO]

4 hours ago, javadude said:

Sounds like a fun road-trip. Shame life is too busy at the moment. According to ABRP the trip would take me 7 hr 18 min at motorway speeds in my EV, including 30 min of charging. I'd want to stop for longer than that to pee and eat during that long a drive. Cost estimated at £3.60 for charge to 100% at home and £24 on route so £28 to do 428 miles. What would that be in petrol? £100?

About 100 perhaps, estimating £90 for myself. At more regular prices, would be £65-70. Are you seriously suggesting that the premium paid for an EV over a car of the same quality and comfort (it costs like a GS, yet not even an IS), amounting to thousands of pounds, with the added loss of flexibility, range anxiety, risk of delays due to waiting at charger or malfunction, is justified by this cost delta? Also, if you're after economics, I assure you, your depreciation is much higher that whatever you save on petrol. If you financed it, the interest cost is probably higher than what you save. 

[javadude]

38 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

About 100 perhaps, estimating £90 for myself. At more regular prices, would be £65-70. Are you seriously suggesting that the premium paid for an EV over a car of the same quality and comfort (it costs like a GS, yet not even an IS) amounts to thousands of pounds, with the added loss of flexibility, range anxiety, risk of delays due to waiting at charger or malfunction, is justified by this cost delta? Also, if you're after economics, I assure you, your depreciation is much higher that whatever you save on petrol. If you financed it, the interest cost is probably higher than what you save. 

If I was doing loads of miles (which I sometimes do - depends on my client) then I'd save money over the life of the car based on fuel costs. Most of my charging is at home at 1/14th cost of petrol. I only use rapid chargers when I'm going long distance and then rarely. Even costing me more is worth it cause the car is better then any ICE I've owned (eg IS200, IS220d, RX450h, NX300h) as its better to drive. The car will do 250-270 miles at motorway speeds and there are plenty of choices for rapid chargers even if your first choice isn't working. I've never worried about range or finding chargers not working. Ok so I have access to all the Tesla superchargers which are pretty reliable and fast which helps. I'm really looking forward to Lexus producing a good EV though. The EV benefits of a smooth, quiet, responsive, fast EV plus the Lexus luxury and service will be hard to beat.

[Malc]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

BTW Elvis is alive and lives on a remote island.

snake maybe 

 

18 minutes ago, javadude said:

The EV benefits of a smooth, quiet, responsive, fast EV plus the Lexus luxury and service will be hard to beat.

already beaten dear fellow .......  my ancient Ls400 4 Ltr V8 power limo does all of that at least .......  and costs buger all in capital costs these days ....  she actually owes me a staggering £650 ?  after my collecting my Cat N  payout a year or two back  ....  and petrol refuelling costs pale into insignificance over the capital costs of a brand new EV 

EVs have very little ( if any )  benefit for most people with special cars like older Lexii .......  and it saves the planet by not scrapping perfectly good cars too believe it or not !

Malc

[DBIZO]

29 minutes ago, javadude said:

If I was doing loads of miles (which I sometimes do - depends on my client) then I'd save money over the life of the car based on fuel costs. Most of my charging is at home at 1/14th cost of petrol. I only use rapid chargers when I'm going long distance and then rarely. Even costing me more is worth it cause the car is better then any ICE I've owned (eg IS200, IS220d, RX450h, NX300h) as its better to drive. The car will do 250-270 miles at motorway speeds and there are plenty of choices for rapid chargers even if your first choice isn't working. I've never worried about range or finding chargers not working. Ok so I have access to all the Tesla superchargers which are pretty reliable and fast which helps. I'm really looking forward to Lexus producing a good EV though. The EV benefits of a smooth, quiet, responsive, fast EV plus the Lexus luxury and service will be hard to beat.

There is of course naught wrong with you liking it over your previous cars. But it doesn't make it objectively better. I dislike the look and feel of it, but love the look and feel of my IS, even thinking of upgrading to a recent Takumi despite of it making absolute zero sense financially. Also, having tried EVs too myself, really not sure what's wrong with an eCVT Lexus' drive. Perhaps more torque, and a higher performing Battery pack with a plug-in option? We do lots of journeys, often on routes and to destinations with limited charging abilities. For example, soon visiting friends in Norfolk, it's about 230 miles, and there is no charging around because it's one of those neighbourhoods. Or Lizard Point, Cornwall, again, I didn't see much EV infrastructure where we stayed and toured. Going deep into Lake District. Covering 600-700 miles in a day in Europe. I wouldn't be comfortable attempting any of these in an EV. Why would I? And what's wrong with a plug-in hybrid? Less expensive, covers your day to day drives, more flexible. Someone just reported covering 2300 miles on a full tank in an RX450h+. 

[Malc]

35 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

Someone just reported covering 2300 miles on a full tank in an RX450h+. 

just on petrol and re-charging thru' the hybrid stuff alone then ............. ????  seems remarakable and worthy of a Lexus Badge of Honour methinks 

wonder over how many days motoring too ?

Malc

[DBIZO]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

just on petrol and re-charging thru' the hybrid stuff alone then ............. ????  seems remarakable and worthy of a Lexus Badge of Honour methinks 

wonder over how many days motoring too ?

Malc

It's a plugin. I might have mixed up the model. NX? 

 

Found the comment. It's an NX plugin. 

[peniole]

4 hours ago, DBIZO said:

About 100 perhaps, estimating £90 for myself. At more regular prices, would be £65-70. Are you seriously suggesting that the premium paid for an EV over a car of the same quality and comfort (it costs like a GS, yet not even an IS), amounting to thousands of pounds, with the added loss of flexibility, range anxiety, risk of delays due to waiting at charger or malfunction, is justified by this cost delta? Also, if you're after economics, I assure you, your depreciation is much higher that whatever you save on petrol. If you financed it, the interest cost is probably higher than what you save. 

I can give you a better estimate for a remarkably similar trip I just did on Wednesday: Lancashire to Dundee, back through Fife. Round trip was 533.1 miles at 58.2MPG (not the best I've squeezed out of this ES, but there was some twisty fun had 👌). Full tank before departure, 1/4 tank left at return, it took 41.6L at same local/pump on return. Extrapolating to your trip that would be £67 done in mine at £2/L. That's a £39 differential for that trip compared to what Chris estimated his energy would cost. Price difference between mine and the long range model 3 I test drove and was considering is about 25K, or about 641 similar trips to break even at current ridiculous petrol prices, and closer to 1121 trips at petrol prices pre-war.

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs. We have a 2017/18 model S, it fits my dad's lifestyle. It just doesn't fit mine or dare I say the majority of people's.

[DBIZO]

37 minutes ago, peniole said:

I can give you a better estimate for a remarkably similar trip I just did on Wednesday: Lancashire to Dundee, back through Fife. Round trip was 533.1 miles at 58.2MPG (not the best I've squeezed out of this ES, but there was some twisty fun had 👌). Full tank before departure, 1/4 tank left at return, it took 41.6L at same local/pump on return. Extrapolating to your trip that would be £67 done in mine at £2/L. That's a £39 differential for that trip compared to what Chris estimated his energy would cost. Price difference between mine and the long range model 3 I test drove and was considering is about 25K, or about 641 similar trips to break even at current ridiculous petrol prices, and closer to 1121 trips at petrol prices pre-war.

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs. We have a 2017/18 model S, it fits my dad's lifestyle. It just doesn't fit mine or dare I say the majority of people's.

the ES is abnormally efficient for a self charging hybrid...also, ridiculously more attractive than most EVs...

[ganzoom]

12 hours ago, DBIZO said:

 Covering 600-700 miles in a day in Europe. 

We've done countless trips to Cornwall/lakes/Scotland in our now 5.5year old Model X, and in about 36hrs will be heading to Europe doing exactly what you are worried about, driving to Oslo, and with a full car of 6 people :).

Someone mentioned depreciation? Our X seems to have depreciated by barely £15k in 5.5 years, but we have zero interest in selling, as the car comes with 'free for life' usage of Tesla SCs. So for our 3500+miles European road trip, fuel costs will be £0 :).

I'll report back once we are properly enroute, road trips in the UK/France in our EV is routine these days, crossing 4 countries will be a new adventure in the EV, cannot wait!

[flotsam]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

We've done countless trips to Cornwall/lakes/Scotland in our now 5.5year old Model X, and in about 36hrs will be heading to Europe doing exactly what you are worried about, driving to Oslo, and with a full car of 6 people :).

Someone mentioned depreciation? Our X seems to have depreciated by barely £15k in 5.5 years, but we have zero interest in selling, as the car comes with 'free for life' usage of Tesla SCs. So for our 3500+miles European road trip, fuel costs will be £0 :).

I'll report back once we are properly enroute, road trips in the UK/France in our EV is routine these days, crossing 4 countries will be a new adventure in the EV, cannot wait!

Someone just blew up his Tesla because the cost of replacing the Battery was tens of thousands.

[dutchie01]

8 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Someone just blew up his Tesla because the cost of replacing the battery was tens of thousands.

Then that person is likely to regret it as these can be repaired at a fraction of those costs nowadays. See a video i posted in the clublounge.

[ganzoom]

16 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Someone just blew up his Tesla because the cost of replacing the battery was tens of thousands.

Someone has money to burn....literally 🙂

[DBIZO]

4 hours ago, ganzoom said:

We've done countless trips to Cornwall/lakes/Scotland in our now 5.5year old Model X, and in about 36hrs will be heading to Europe doing exactly what you are worried about, driving to Oslo, and with a full car of 6 people :).

Someone mentioned depreciation? Our X seems to have depreciated by barely £15k in 5.5 years, but we have zero interest in selling, as the car comes with 'free for life' usage of Tesla SCs. So for our 3500+miles European road trip, fuel costs will be £0 :).

I'll report back once we are properly enroute, road trips in the UK/France in our EV is routine these days, crossing 4 countries will be a new adventure in the EV, cannot wait!

First off, I bought my car for less than your depreciation. Second, I did not say it's impossible, but I seriously question the general truth to triumphant reports on very long trips in EVs, that pretend there is no range anxiety, that it's all smooth sailing, and it's the same pace, flexibility and peace of mind.

My examples were actual trips we did, and out of interest I looked up what would have happened in a T EV, because that's the best there is for journey planning. Our trips would not have been the same either in schedule or routing, that was clear. In multiple destinations of ours, there was no charging. Not even around, within miles.

I'm not interested in general 'you can go to Cornwall or Scotland in an EV', because I'm not going just anywhere in Cornwall or Scotland, but I will go anywhere exactly where we want to go. That's a fundamental point: I drive where I want to, you drive where the car can. As EV infrastructure builds out, the two will converge for sure, but let's be honest for now.

You're driving through one of the richest and most densely populated areas of Europe, heading to EV Land. I don't doubt you can make it to Oslo without a major event. But I seriously doubt you could repeat my recent routes and schedule across Europe with no change. I also dismiss that charging time is a non-issue. It is when your bio breaks don't align with charging points. Also, it is when you're on the limit of your own endurance (for me, 10-12 hours of hard motorway driving is the far end of my comfort zone). Adding another hour of delay on top of that would really be painful. For me. Our needs are varied, but EVs can only serve a subset of those needs.

Safe travels!

[peniole]

4 hours ago, ganzoom said:

We've done countless trips to Cornwall/lakes/Scotland in our now 5.5year old Model X, and in about 36hrs will be heading to Europe doing exactly what you are worried about, driving to Oslo, and with a full car of 6 people :).

Someone mentioned depreciation? Our X seems to have depreciated by barely £15k in 5.5 years, but we have zero interest in selling, as the car comes with 'free for life' usage of Tesla SCs. So for our 3500+miles European road trip, fuel costs will be £0 :).

I'll report back once we are properly enroute, road trips in the UK/France in our EV is routine these days, crossing 4 countries will be a new adventure in the EV, cannot wait!

The price differential similar to the calculation above but to a model X with free SC charging instead of a 3 would be.... drum roll please... 1194 of the above mentioned Scotland trips at current fuel prices to break even. 1592 trips at pre-war prices. In miles if one prefers 511k and 681k miles respectively.

[peniole]

I seem to have confused Malc. Here's the maths breakdown.

ES- model X = £80k (price range £30-40k vs £110-120k)

428 miles (the aforementioned Scotland trip) costs £67 in ES @£2/L and zero in the X

£80k/£67 = break even trip numbers mentioned above

multiply by 428 an you get the break even miles

I now, I'm a nerd 🤷‍♂️

[wharfhouse]

36 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

First off, I bought my car for less than your depreciation. Second, I did not say it's impossible, but I seriously question the general truth to triumphant reports on very long trips in EVs, that pretend there is no range anxiety, that it's all smooth sailing, and it's the same pace, flexibility and peace of mind.

My examples were actual trips we did, and out of interest I looked up what would have happened in a T EV, because that's the best there is for journey planning. Our trips would not have been the same either in schedule or routing, that was clear. In multiple destinations of ours, there was no charging. Not even around, within miles.

I'm not interested in general 'you can go to Cornwall or Scotland in an EV', because I'm not going just anywhere in Cornwall or Scotland, but I will go anywhere exactly where we want to go. That's a fundamental point: I drive where I want to, you drive where the car can. As EV infrastructure builds out, the two will converge for sure, but let's be honest for now.

You're driving through one of the richest and most densely populated areas of Europe, heading to EV Land. I don't doubt you can make it to Oslo without a major event. But I seriously doubt you could repeat my recent routes and schedule across Europe with no change. I also dismiss that charging time is a non-issue. It is when your bio breaks don't align with charging points. Also, it is when you're on the limit of your own endurance (for me, 10-12 hours of hard motorway driving is the far end of my comfort zone). Adding another hour of delay on top of that would really be painful. For me. Our needs are varied, but EVs can only serve a subset of those needs.

Safe travels!

I think this is a very good article - yes, move towards zero emissions but let the market decide how that is achieved based on needs: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/evs-arent-only-answer-toyota-scientist-future-cars

[Mr Vlad]

What a good article. Pity there aren't many people like him in the automotive industry. 

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

The price differential similar to the calculation above but to a model X with free SC charging instead of a 3 would be.... drum roll please... 1194 of the above mentioned Scotland trips at current fuel prices to break even. 1592 trips at pre-war prices. In miles if one prefers 511k and 681k miles respectively.

I think you need your maths checking.....our 6 seater X was £71k invoice price, I wouldn't swap it for Model 3 if Tesla paid me....infact they tired to 'temp' me into a Y with a zero cost PX. But why would I swap a car that has more space, more utltiy, free fuel for a smaller car that I have to pay to refuel?

Incidently as I've said many times before if we didn't get our X I would be in GS-F, Caynee turbo or similar......sub 20mpg at £2/l for supeunlead, not forgetting the maintenance costs....EVs win on every front versus a performance car, residuals, running costs, even purchase prices. A Porsch Taycan Estate is actually the same price as a BMW M3 estate.

For cheaper cars, like for my wifes IS300H, you are right the maths don't work, especially when you factor in unbreakable reliability of Lexus. Which partly why we cancelled our Model 3 order years ago......Though if we had kept the order I probably could have sold the 3 for a profit!

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

The price differential similar to the calculation above but to a model X with free SC charging instead of a 3 would be.

Oh I should add you cannot buy ANY Tesla with free SC charging any more. Tesla stopped doing that years ago as longterm wise it was a money losser, they used it as an incentive for early adopter.

As an early adopter Tesla also fitted a 'free' Powerwall in our house, and sent me x4 22inch wheels+tires. You wouldn't get any of that now. So if I really did the total sum costs of our early adopter costs, I suspect our Model X has been a net asset GENERATOR rather than cost!!

Things are very different now though, though my biggest regret was not buying Tesla shares back in 2015....

 

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, DBIZO said:

I drive where I want to, you drive where the car can.

....and how do you think we use our car? I've done 75k miles in various EVs now, we are lucky enough to be able to afford pretty much any car on the market regardless of fuel type. Do you really think we would still have an EV as our main family/holiday car it using one was as horrific as you think?

Our IS300H was bought new in 2015, roughly the same time as our first EV, its done 37k miles as of yesterday. If living with an EV was hard why wouldn't we have used our IS300H more?

 

[DBIZO]

41 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

....and how do you think we use our car? I've done 75k miles in various EVs now, we are lucky enough to be able to afford pretty much any car on the market regardless of fuel type. Do you really think we would still have an EV as our main family/holiday car it using one was as horrific as you think?

Our IS300H was bought new in 2015, roughly the same time as our first EV, its done 37k miles as of yesterday. If living with an EV was hard why wouldn't we have used our IS300H more?

 

I wouldn't know, because I don't know you and your circumstance. Maybe you don't mind driving only between charging points. It suits your needs. I did not say it must be horrific for you. It would be for me. EVs are great around town though. 

[matt8]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

Oh I should add you cannot buy ANY Tesla with free SC charging any more. Tesla stopped doing that years ago as longterm wise it was a money losser, they used it as an incentive for early adopter.

As an early adopter Tesla also fitted a 'free' Powerwall in our house, and sent me x4 22inch wheels+tires. You wouldn't get any of that now. So if I really did the total sum costs of our early adopter costs, I suspect our Model X has been a net asset GENERATOR rather than cost!!

Things are very different now though, though my biggest regret was not buying Tesla shares back in 2015....

 

Very nice perks of being an early adopter!

What's the capacity of the powerwall?