Fuel panic!

[Bluemarlin]

7 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

There were methods for the population to understand the political and social landscape before the internet! Newspapers, pamphlets, local meetings…lots of people absolutely were cheering on the Luddites. Not the ruling class, obviously, but normal downtrodden working people who are all too often ignored by history.

We should be careful in assuming that (what we call) progress is always positive. It’s interesting that the term ‘Luddite’ is now used in the negative. All they were doing was standing up for their craft and employment rights against mechanisation which was to see their wages and (limited) rights eroded for the benefit of mill owners. Yes, progress was - at a macro level - achieved with the growth of the UK economy, but at what human cost?

I appreciate I may sound like a socialist, or a conspiracy theorist - perhaps even a socialist conspiracy theorist - but what we call ‘progress’ is often just a way of making a small group of people richer at the expense of the majority.

Progress led to colonisation, Empire, subjugation and many other very bad things. But hey, at least ‘progress’ meant that we ‘gave’ those countries railways. Funny that they aren’t more grateful isn’t it?!

Even so, I do believe that the climate crisis means fossil fuels are doomed, and rightly so. Funny thing though…it was industrial innovation - the industrial revolution - that saw the mass extraction and burning of coal, then oil, which is, as I understand it, one of the major factors behind global warming.

EDIT: for context, I am exceptionally grumpy this morning!

You don't sound like a socialist conspiracy theorist, or even particularly grumpy. I get your point, the minority wealthy have aways exploited the minority poor.

I don't think that's the fault of progress itself though, and instead is just people taking advantage of new opportunities to exploit. Something they would  have done with or without any progress,

Despite the fact that progress can be exploited by the few, it's also benefited the many. Due to progress we llve longer, healthier lives, and in greater comfort than at any point in our history. Heating, sanitation, healthcare, life's luxuries, were once the preserve of the rich, and are now available to many. The fact that this is witheld from poorer nations is less about progress itself, and more to do with politics, greed, and the unwillingness to distribute those benefits more fairly and equally.

[Illogan]

9 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

>" The fact that this is witheld from poorer nations is less about progress itself, and more to do with politics, greed, and the unwillingness to distribute those benefits more fairly and equally."<

Man IS intrinsically tribal, greedy and selfish.

Most wars, politics and religions started with those elements, and continue with them to this day.

[First_Lexus]

54 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I don't think that's the fault of progress itself though, and instead is just people taking advantage of new opportunities to exploit. Something they would  have done with or without any progress,

Yes, good point. At least the industrial revolution gave the up and coming middle classes a chance at influence and power (although I think that started much earlier as a result of labour shortages caused by the Black Death, but still).

Without it, the majority of us would have remained oppressed by the Feudal Lords.

There is a tendency - and I admit I fall into it from time to time - to romanticise the period before industrialisation. However, if the Levellers and the Diggers taught us anything it’s that attempts to reform society generally ended in failure and bloodshed.

 

[Bluemarlin]

26 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

There is a tendency - and I admit I fall into it from time to time - to romanticise the period before industrialisation.

Me too. But every time I do, I think about central heating, indoor toilets, and toilet paper. I'd sacrifice a lot of things before I gave up those 🙂

[toffee_pie]

6 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

I am amazed people still don’t get the major factor regarding EVs, it’s the local pollution (forget world climate change for a second, just about nothing we do is going to change that, but no one wants to admit it) it’s driving in towns and cities, outside schools, traffic jams etc etc where EVs will produce no pollution and the local air quality is dramatically improved.

 

 

I am amazed you think they have zero manufacturing implications and grow on trees - oh look, there is one spouting from the tree out the back, how cute

And its diesel and/or manufacturing pollutions that is nasty in built up cities - that is why Tokyo has such clean air - despite the fact Tokyo and its suburbs is the most densely populated place on earth, they don’t have rank diesels destroying air quality

[Phil xxkr]

9 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Me too. But every time I do, I think about central heating, indoor toilets, and toilet paper. I'd sacrifice a lot of things before I gave up those 🙂

I remember those days in the 50's in the Midlands 🤯

[royoftherovers]

10 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I remember those days in the 50's in the Midlands 🤯

with o/s toilets and the News of the World tissue young fella?

[Phil xxkr]

6 hours ago, Malc1 said:

oh that we had such politicians with those highly capable inherent levels of competency

infantile, fairyland thought processes have gone on with Truss and Kwasi these past weeks .......  so much damage done and all avoidable had those two clowns read the OBR paperwork that they refused to even acknowledge existed  ................... methinks the Conservative Party is now forever doomed ...  well until someone spills the beans on Sir Keir , the Unions and their shaft of onions ........

Boris and Rishi might have had their faults but blimey they were tiny tiny tiny compared to the clowns now in charge ...........  may the partying continue with whomsoever shows just one jot of competency to lead us Great Britons forth.......................

 ................ I'll be in the lead with my quiet as a mouse raging V8 Ls400   😇

 

Malc

What damage is that Malc? 

[royoftherovers]

26 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Absolutely 😎, that froze over in winter 🤯

so, we were both milk monitors in the same class!

[Boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, Malc1 said:

 

cold showers and scraping the ice off the inside of the bedroom windows never did any one harm

Malc

I’ve done that, and it might not do any harm but all I have to say about your suggestion is **** off 🤣

[Boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, peniole said:

Get it. Hybrids do the same. In town, at standstill mine does not run the ICE. Unless one is lead footed or climbing a steep hill that is. With the added bonus that it does not weigh ~3tonnes and does not produce increased particulate matter (especially health damaging PM2.5) from the tyres/brakes. See: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/4a4dc6ca-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/4a4dc6ca-en

Admittedly less PM from light EVs. They still have some way to go to ensure range without overloading the scales.

Honda e 1.5Ton vs Jazz hybrid 1.2Ton

Model3 1.8Ton vs Civic hybrid 1.5Ton

and that's comparing light like for like models on size. The new EQS450 that journalists are raving about is 2.5Ton (the weight of an F150 pickup truck), and we haven't been talking SUVs yet!

Built properly they don’t have to weight a tone, mine is the same weight as a Fiesta, of course in the near future the capacity density of batteries will be such that weight is no longer an issue.

[Boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Good for the rich living in cities where all drive EV's that have left their polluting elsewhere.

Give it a rest, if you want to moan write to your….YOUR politicians and make a case.

[Boxbrownie]

52 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Absolutely 😎, that froze over in winter 🤯

Sat there waiting while King Kong’s finger you just landed melts through the ice 💩

[Boxbrownie]

16 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

I’ve done that, and it might not do any harm but all I have to say about your suggestion is **** off 🤣

And for the more sensitive of you (any Greens here or Firends of the Girth) it’s a joke, I am sure Malc is old enough to realise that 😉

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

You don't sound like a socialist conspiracy theorist, or even particularly grumpy. I get your point, the minority wealthy have aways exploited the minority poor.

I don't think that's the fault of progress itself though, and instead is just people taking advantage of new opportunities to exploit. Something they would  have done with or without any progress,

Despite the fact that progress can be exploited by the few, it's also benefited the many. Due to progress we llve longer, healthier lives, and in greater comfort than at any point in our history. Heating, sanitation, healthcare, life's luxuries, were once the preserve of the rich, and are now available to many. The fact that this is witheld from poorer nations is less about progress itself, and more to do with politics, greed, and the unwillingness to distribute those benefits more fairly and equally.

Wonder if the poor think you are right.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Me too. But every time I do, I think about central heating, indoor toilets, and toilet paper. I'd sacrifice a lot of things before I gave up those 🙂

Prefer a bidet to toilet paper.

[peniole]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Built properly they don’t have to weight a tone, mine is the same weight as a Fiesta, of course in the near future the capacity density of batteries will be such that weight is no longer an issue.

Current Fiesta is just shy of 1.1Tons (1084kg) to 1.2Tons depending on version. Out of curiosity which EV is yours from the ones that are 1.2 Ton (Up, citigo, smart...etc)? The new 500e, which I like, is a bit heavier at 1255kg, and then things spiral pretty quickly upwards from there. I'm of course ignoring the twizzy and ami. Am I missing one, and how do you like it? Always good to hear from someone living with one.

[Bluemarlin]

46 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Wonder if the poor think you are right.

I think the poor of this country would agree that they're better off than the poor of 2 or 3 hundred years ago, which is what I meant, but you knew that;)

That's not to say the poor are well off, here on in other countries, because they're not, by a long way. And that is more about politics, unequal distribution, and exploitation, than it is progress or resource availability. Something the WEF and their Great Reset appears to want to address;)

[VFR]

Paid £1.66 (and a bit) at my local Tesco yesterday for their finest E10 shi**,  well saint dumberg says its good stuff though.

[wharfhouse]

26 minutes ago, VFR said:

Paid £1.66 (and a bit) at my local Tesco yesterday for their finest E10 shi**,  well saint dumberg says its good stuff though.

£1.64 (and a bit) today at Sainsbury's for E5 Super Unleaded - Near Reading, Berkshire 

[Las Palmas]

1 minute ago, wharfhouse said:

£1.64 (and a bit) today at Sainsbury's for E5 Super Unleaded - Near Reading, Berkshire 

If the value of the £ continue down it is same price as here: 1.62€

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think the poor of this country would agree that they're better off than the poor of 2 or 3 hundred years ago, which is what I meant, but you knew that;)

That's not to say the poor are well off, here on in other countries, because they're not, by a long way. And that is more about politics, unequal distribution, and exploitation, than it is progress or resource availability. Something the WEF and their Great Reset appears to want to address;)

Don’t think you quite get the agenda for 2030 - Governments will have more control over the average person than ever before and a social credit system will be in place like what is going on in China and the average person will own nothing – EVs facilitate this because they are digital devices, like I said way back – its very easy to control them over old analog cars – the wheels are driven by digital motors which is why they cant be towed as you will wreck the car itself - think of someone logging onto your laptop now do diagnose it, thats the EV for you.

And by all account’s things are going very well indeed by. There is talk of a central currency in the western world also and I wouldn’t bet against that happening either with the dramatic economic shifts going on – blame covid – that old chestnut or the energy crisis war – that experts predicted to run into 2023 with uncanny ability.

[Phil xxkr]

11 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

so, we were both milk monitors in the same class!

The milk and the loo up the garden, 🙁

[Phil xxkr]

9 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think the poor of this country would agree that they're better off than the poor of 2 or 3 hundred years ago, which is what I meant, but you knew that;)

That's not to say the poor are well off, here on in other countries, because they're not, by a long way. And that is more about politics, unequal distribution, and exploitation, than it is progress or resource availability. Something the WEF and their Great Reset appears to want to address;)

I find myself getting increasingly concerned not by the climate verbiage or energy or Ukraine or even the price of fish. But by seemingly august and learned people wittering on and using terms like, unequal or fair or redistribution. You don't need to go back 2/3 hundred years how about 2/3 decades to see how billions have been lifted out poverty not by Socialism but essentially capitalism. So let's put away the hair shirt and instead continue to look for ways to lift people up by innovation and progress and not by some entropic nirvana. (end of Monday morning rant) 😎

[Malc1]

15 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

What damage is that Malc? 

simply to the credibility of sterling ...................

Malc