Fuel panic!

[First_Lexus]

Loosely related to the current thread direction of travel - did anybody else see this?

https://news.sky.com/story/scientists-propose-controversial-plan-to-refreeze-north-and-south-poles-by-spraying-sulphur-dioxide-into-atmosphere-12697769

In other news, petrol here is below £1.60 in some places now and the price is still falling…slowly.

[Boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Knowing that none of us can convince those loving EV’s, that they are helping nothing at all with regard to climate crisis; and that becoming dependent on China to deliver batteries is not nearly as bad than being dependent of gas and oil from Russia; and that our stupid politicians have all the rights in the world to only care about being re-elected, I will now accept that stupidity is a virtue allowed to us all.

 

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

In other news, petrol here is below £1.60 in some places now and the price is still falling…slowly.

Here petrol is still around 60% higher than in the good normal days so around 1.62€, but electricity is up 100%. We can still pay, but not all are that lucky.

http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/    

https://climate.nasa.gov/faq/30/if-all-of-earths-ice-melts-and-flows-into-the-ocean-what-would-happen-to-the-planets-rotation/

[Bluemarlin]

13 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Beijing stinks from pollution due to industrial work, Tokyo very much less so.

You come across as a bit of a keyboard warrior type, have you been to Beijing, have you been to Tokyo? I've been to both, plus Shenzhen and many more cities in China. 

Now, back to Google with you 

Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone a keyboard warrior, but we'lll go with that if it makes you happy.

I've been to neither, but visiting a city doesn't give someone any more expertise concerning their polution. I doubt the countless visitors to London have much of an idea about our environmental intricacies. Nor do I claim to be an expert on either, and am only pointing out that there's readily available information that disagrees with some of your claims. That's not keyboard warrioring, it's just not letting unproven claims and assumptions go unchallenged.

I agreed with you that Beijing was polluted, and that some of it was industrial, but disagreed that cars played no part, and referred to an article showing that vehicles were responsible for 70%.

I also agreed that Tokyo was cleaner, in part because of industrial pollution controls. I only disagreed with your claim that cars were't part of the problem, as if that were the case then Tokyo wouldn't be toughening up vehicle regulations and offering subsidies for EVs.

I don't disagree with you that EVs may not be the answer. They may even be bad, but you've yet to make that case.  There are pros and cons for both EVs and ICE cars. I just disagree with lazily produced examples, designed to only favour one side, and which can be easily countered. All that does is suggest that your concerns are more about "secret" government agendas. than the practical realities of each alternatives.

Both Malc and Las Palmas put up valid concerns over why EV and Battery tech may not be the answer, for practical, economical and environmental reasons, which to me seem far more convincing than "but Beijing", "but Tokyo",  and  the WEF and government plots to control people.

Now back to Alex Jones with you 😉

[Bluemarlin]

Petrol near me has finally dropped to below £1.70, and was £1.67 at the Esso station I passed the other day.

[First_Lexus]

£1.58 for unleaded at BP in Calcot (Reading) this morning.

[Malc1]

6 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Petrol near me has finally dropped to below £1.70, and was £1.67 at the Esso station I passed the other day.

Methinks Stockbroker Belt and Liz removing the upper limit on said Bankers Bonuses might have summat to do with why your Surrey fuel prices are  tardy in coming down 😂

But I do recall when Peckham was in Surrey  .  going back a while now tho' and even in me youth I wondered how on earth Peckham could equate to a rich and £££ rewarding Surrey lifestyle  ....  BUT nowadays a common simple 3 bed terrace house in the heart of Peckham is £1millon + .....  how times change eh ! 

YEP, your Surrey petrol deserves to be expensive compared to us poor mortals outside of your Stockbroker Belt 😇

Malc

[Bluemarlin]

Haha, I'm not quite as far out as the stockbroker belt, nor in enough to be anywhere near Peckham. More SW London.

Cycled through Putney this afternoon and the Sainsbury's local was £1.60.

[wharfhouse]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:20 PM, wharfhouse said:

Yes, I'm old enough to remember when Japanese cars were the joke, then the Korean Cars, now look at them both... I am sure Chinese cars will become very common in the next decade or two. To reinforce what you say, having always bought what I deemed "high quality" audio and TV equipment I've just bought a new TV and went with a now well-known Chinese one as for various reasons I didn't to spend a lot at this time and I have to say I am delighted - for the price I can't fault it! When I look at my daughter (mid-20 year old) and her generation they don't have the same "hang-ups" as some of us older ones do buying Chinese tech.

First Chinese car brand to be sold in Britain
Pendragon to start selling BYD's electric cars before the end of the year...

The MG EV is already well reviewed by the motoring press - value for money in comparison to to over inflated prices of many EV marques - this latest move could be the opening of the flood gates - if the public are to be forced into EVs then most will be looking at buying at the lowest price.

[royoftherovers]

30 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

First Chinese car brand to be sold in Britain
Pendragon to start selling BYD's electric cars before the end of the year...

The MG EV is already well reviewed by the motoring press - value for money in comparison to to over inflated prices of many EV marques - this latest move could be the opening of the flood gates - if the public are to be forced into EVs then most will be looking at buying at the lowest price.

" if the public are to be forced into EVs then most will be looking at buying at the lowest price."...............only if that provides value for money Phil.

I still think that EV is not the way to go as there cannot be the necessary electrical capacity available within the supply system within 25 years to satisfy the number of current drivers of I.C.E. vehicles.Trouble now is that Motor Manufacturers have committed themselves solely to EV  production, that they will go bust if it doesn`t proceed to fruition.

Hybrid should have been the way to go until 2050 by which time, the World will look very different (Comrade,🤣🤣)

[wharfhouse]

49 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

" if the public are to be forced into EVs then most will be looking at buying at the lowest price."...............only if that provides value for money Phil.

I still think that EV is not the way to go as there cannot be the necessary electrical capacity available within the supply system within 25 years to satisfy the number of current drivers of I.C.E. vehicles.Trouble now is that Motor Manufacturers have committed themselves solely to EV  production, that they will go bust if it doesn`t proceed to fruition.

Hybrid should have been the way to go until 2050 by which time, the World will look very different (Comrade,🤣🤣)

Couldn't agree with you more. However, on value for money then as cars get ever more "white goods" so long as they are reliable and have the main features / toys that satisfy the majority of people then price becomes a more significant driver. Of course that's the 80/20 rule and the 20 will still be more discerning, but for the 80 these new brands will IMHO deliver what they need for day to day cars. 

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Couldn't agree with you more. However, on value for money then as cars get ever more "white goods" so long as they are reliable and have the main features / toys that satisfy the majority of people then price becomes a more significant driver. Of course that's the 80/20 rule and the 20 will still be more discerning, but for the 80 these new brands will IMHO deliver what they need for day to day cars. 

Pareto Rules, ok !

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

I still think that EV is not the way to go as there cannot be the necessary electrical capacity available within the supply system within 25 years to satisfy the number of current drivers of I.C.E. vehicles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=780c68357862

[wharfhouse]

3 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=780c68357862

This assumes people charge when the Battery is empty - like you would refill with petrol - but do people with EVs do that or do they plug in every night thereby causing a peak load on the grid much more than the average would suggest to ensure they always have a full charge so they have the car available for any unplanned long trip - my inclination would be the latter but as I don't have an EV I currently speak from my pov. Would be interesting to know what those with EVs do...? Perhaps this is why smart chargers are now mandated to spread that peak load? Problem with the whole EV thing is so few facts and so much subjective comment leaving the average person more confused and none the wiser! 

[Malc1]

36 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

leaving the average person more confused and none the wiser! 

and significantly out of pocket when the effective EV  " white goods " need servicing or simply replacing with a built in life, like a fridge or a washing machine of say  ...  5 years and then simply recycled ....  it's not going to be a car but simply a general household item with built in obsolesence  ......  don't you think  ??

 

Malc

[wharfhouse]

2 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

and significantly out of pocket when the effective EV  " white goods " need servicing or simply replacing with a built in life, like a fridge or a washing machine of say  ...  5 years and then simply recycled ....  it's not going to be a car but simply a general household item with built in obsolesence  ......  don't you think  ??

 

Malc

Yes I think it is heading that way - less and less people buy cars outright and simply roll on finance - I think car manufacturers will have more stringent recycling targets as we go forwards but making cars more disposable actually fits that agenda better. Used EVs will not be as attractive as ICE was and I believe as they get older will be harder to source parts than the current ICE generations which have had a longer planned lifecycle. 

[royoftherovers]

54 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=780c68357862

Thanks for that article David.

[Mr Vlad]

Source what parts? EV's have mechanical parts like suspension parts which I suspect are sourced from a huge parts bin the manufacturer already has. Motors? Well I guess most are generic. Batteries? Don't know about that. 

I'm more anti EV than pro. Yes they have their place but not for everyone. 

As John said earlier Hybrid should be continued and even improved if possible and for at least a couple of decades. Jumping head first into EV like it is doing is almost suicidal. 

Yes it looks like there are more folk on continuing finance on cars. Me if I borrow money to buy a car it's over 3 years and then it's MINE.

 

[Bluemarlin]

5 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

I still think that EV is not the way to go as there cannot be the necessary electrical capacity available within the supply system within 25 years to satisfy the number of current drivers of I.C.E. vehicles.Trouble now is that Motor Manufacturers have committed themselves solely to EV  production, that they will go bust if it doesn`t proceed to fruition.

Hybrid should have been the way to go until 2050 by which time, the World will look very different (Comrade,🤣🤣)

I agree that hybrid would probably have been a better interim solution or, rather than an ICE/electric motor hybrid, perhaps an EV with a small petrol generator built in. Don't know how practical that would be though.

I don't think there are any concerns with grid capacity though:

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

The bigger problem seems to me to be charging points, specifically for large developments of flats. I can't see that being overcome until charging can be done at a similar speed to a petrol fill up.  That said, plenty of people only put a tenner in the tank currently, so maybe they'll be the same with electricity.

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

That said, plenty of people only put a tenner in the tank currently,

filling both my cars on the same day is 1 x £10 X about 26  😅

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

specifically for large developments of flats. I can't see that being overcome

nor indeed for ancient terraces of houses like mine maybe ........  BUT let's remember it's only us silly dopes in the UK and the EU and some of the USA that have fallen for all this political and Green CRAP about saving the planet we need to go EV  ..............

the REST of the WORLD hasn't succumbed to the dumb down rubbish being spouted 

 

Malc

[wharfhouse]

45 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I agree that hybrid would probably have been a better interim solution or, rather than an ICE/electric motor hybrid, perhaps an EV with a small petrol generator built in. Don't know how practical that would be though

Nissan's take on just that with their new e-power cars:

e-POWER, a unique combination

A technology unique to Nissan. e-POWER uses a petrol engine to charge a Battery and that alone drives an electric motor, powering the wheels. It responds similarly to an electric car, providing instant torque and also has lower tailpipe emissions and running costs compared to a traditional combustion engine [1], but without the need to plug it in. In addition to the petrol engine, e-POWER also uses regenerative braking to help keep the Battery topped up.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

I agree that hybrid would probably have been a better interim solution or, rather than an ICE/electric motor hybrid, perhaps an EV with a small petrol generator built in. Don't know how practical that would be though.

I don't think there are any concerns with grid capacity though:

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

The bigger problem seems to me to be charging points, specifically for large developments of flats. I can't see that being overcome until charging can be done at a similar speed to a petrol fill up.  That said, plenty of people only put a tenner in the tank currently, so maybe they'll be the same with electricity.

Thanks for the link Bill. We shall have to see, but in 2050 I will be 105 !

[Malc1]

39 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

but in 2050 I will be 105 !

and you'll still be in the market for your next new car ....  I'll only be 100 and still driving my Ls400 eh ! 

Malc

[Bluemarlin]

47 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

filling both my cars on the same day is 1 x £10 X about 26  😅

nor indeed for ancient terraces of houses like mine maybe ........  BUT let's remember it's only us silly dopes in the UK and the EU and some of the USA that have fallen for all this political and Green CRAP about saving the planet we need to go EV  ..............

the REST of the WORLD hasn't succumbed to the dumb down rubbish being spouted 

 

Malc

I feel your pain. Thankfully I'm back down to one car 🙂

I don't particularly buy the environmental angle either Malc, and accept that it's possibly swings and roundabouts when you take the manufacturing process into account.

However, I do see the political/economic advantages of moving to a fuel source that can be generated in a multitude of ways, instead of relying on foreign oil. Spend a day or two in Knightsbridge and look at all the fancy cars on foreign plates that are shipped over for the summer at £20k a pop, then transported to places like Marbella, before flying them home to the Middle East. A large proportion of the hotels and properties are owned/occupied by Arabs too. Most of this wealth comes from our total dependence on oil. These countries mostly have fully funded health and education services, without the need for income tax, while we struggle to pay our bills.

As such, it would seem to me that anything that could give us options, and move us a step closer to energy independence, would be a good thing. I think the government's goals would be better served promoting this angle just as much as the environmental one.

That said, I don't think we're fully there yet with EVs. I believe the cars offer better technology, efficiency, and even perhaps lower maintenance costs, but Battery and charging technology has yet to catch up. It will though.

[Boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

This assumes people charge when the battery is empty - like you would refill with petrol - but do people with EVs do that or do they plug in every night thereby causing a peak load on the grid much more than the average would suggest to ensure they always have a full charge so they have the car available for any unplanned long trip - my inclination would be the latter but as I don't have an EV I currently speak from my pov. Would be interesting to know what those with EVs do...? Perhaps this is why smart chargers are now mandated to spread that peak load? Problem with the whole EV thing is so few facts and so much subjective comment leaving the average person more confused and none the wiser! 

Yes, most of not all EV users most likely get out the car, plug in and go indoors. The system is being built by energy suppliers and EV manufacturers so vehicles can monitor usage and demand and intelligently charge when required, this is why all EVSE units must now be SMART, and electric meters WILL be all SMART eventually so as the communications can take place transparently, but the owner will still always have a full Battery when usually needed, but even now the legislation demands the system must have a user over ride.

Just in case of exceptional usage.