Fuel panic!

[toffee_pie]

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

but paranoia about governments isn't one of them.

Government’s banning perfectly reliable normal combustion engine cars that have been manufactured since the 1800s and which are well known by mechanics and DIY people the world over and in doing so getting rid of thousands of jobs in the process in favour of EVs nobody can afford and in an industry that accounts for around 12 percent of global greenhouse gases worldwide

just like that...?

There is NO savings to be had over petrol cars - unless you magically find a free EV in your driveway in the morning, plus with electric prices going the way they are EVs are already more costly to run over a petrol car - from what reports I have read in the last week have said – Net Zero is nothing more than government brainwashing drivel to use as a trump card to justify people getting them in the first place - lies, just like Diesel.

I suggest you remove them rose tinted blinkers you seem to be wearing as they are severely clouding your judgement on the wider picture going on here

[toffee_pie]

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

No, I mean that manufacturing can be done away from populations, whereas driving can't. I'm not referring to climate change, but the polution from vehicle emissions in populated areas.

So should we make tens of trillions of batteries by 2040 in some man-made island away from civilisation - sounds a plan, nobody will ever know - we can just chuck all the waste into the ocean.

You need to divert your rose-tinted glasses away from experts and see where greenhouse gases actually come from, you will find cars are pretty low down the list - in England they have negligible contribution to global emissions.  All that smog in Beijing where does it come from? No, its not cars

[Malc1]

Blo-ody Camels ...... u smoke ‘em, ride ‘em ...... whatever u get pollution from ‘em BUT maybe their poo helps the climate fertilising whatever their Shiite falls upon ....... and of course u can eat ‘em too ...... but the “eye” of one ........ could be a tasty morsel to contemplate away from all this irreconcilable pullava over Fuel Panics .......... 

I think it’s commendable to be able to make a profit on ones electric home bill and donating that to the local Foodbank  In appropriate form would be a wonderful and welcome gesture ........ from those with the wherewithal so to do 😇

Malc 

 

 

 

[toffee_pie]

On 9/17/2022 at 11:12 PM, toffee_pie said:

There is nothing eco-friendly about EVs, for a solitary manufacturer selling 2 million EVs a year they would need to manufacture around 95491088758 lithium batteries by 2030 - that is 2 million but with 5 percent sales increase each year - they want profits, don’t they? now add the dozen or so other manufacturers onto the EV bandwagon and see how many batteries are needed and they don’t grow on trees and that excludes all the other electronic components associated with electric cars - and 2.43 million sales in 2029 is pretty generous

The Dirty Secrets Of ‘Clean’ Electric Vehicles
Aug 2, 2020,10:40pm

.........There are 7.2 million Battery EVs or about 1% of the total vehicle fleet today. To get an idea of the scale of mining for raw materials involved in replacing the world’s gasoline and diesel-fueled cars with EVs, we can take the example of the UK as provided by Michael Kelly, the Emeritus Prince Philip Professor of Technology at the University of Cambridge. According to Professor Kelly, if we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs,  assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials: about twice the annual global production of cobalt; three quarters of the world’s production lithium carbonate; nearly the entire world production of neodymium; and more than half the world’s production of copper in 2018.

And this is just for the UK. Professor Kelly estimates that if we want the whole world to be transported by electric vehicles, the vast increases in the supply of the raw materials listed above would go far beyond known reserves. The environmental and social impact of vastly-expanded mining for these materials — some of which are highly toxic when mined, transported and processed – in countries afflicted by corruption and poor human rights records can only be imagined. The clean and green image of EVs stands in stark contrast to the realities of manufacturing batteries.

The determination not to know or to look away when the facts assail our beliefs is an enduring frailty of human nature. The tendency towards group think and confirmation bias, and the will to affirm the “scientific consensus” and marginalize sceptics, are rife in considerations by the so-called experts committed to advocating their favorite cause. In the case of EVs, the dirty secrets of “clean energy” should seem apparent to all but, alas, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

These will be in demand

[Phil xxkr]

9 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Blo-ody Camels ...... u smoke ‘em, ride ‘em ...... whatever u get pollution from ‘em BUT maybe their poo helps the climate fertilising whatever their Shiite falls upon ....... and of course u can eat ‘em too ...... but the “eye” of one ........ could be a tasty morsel to contemplate away from all this irreconcilable pullava over Fuel Panics .......... 

I think it’s commendable to be able to make a profit on ones electric home bill and donating that to the local Foodbank  In appropriate form would be a wonderful and welcome gesture ........ from those with the wherewithal so to do 😇

Malc 

 

 

 

Happy to do that Malc if they are also willing to share in my losses during the coldest of months 😊

[First_Lexus]

Somebody remarked earlier that this is a very complex subject. It certainly is. I’m not sure there are actually ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ answers - perhaps simply variations of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ options.

From my perspective - and these are only my thoughts and opinions - EVs are very useful in terms of improving air quality in urban settings. I’m not sure many people would disagree, but I’m sure some will. Their contribution in terms of emissions to combat climate change, when being used, is also important. That is the environmental impact.

However, the key there is “…when being used.” What about the impact of their manufacture? 

Then we come to sustainability. Our natural resources can only be used once, and with some recycling, a few times at best. Then they’re gone forever. From a sustainability perspective, we should use cars (as the example - actually everything) until they are no longer able to be used, and then re-use as much of them as possible. But if they are heavy polluters, that doesn’t help with their negative environmental impact (assuming we believe that the negative in terms of emissions outweighs the positives in terms of reduced manufacturing).

In many ways, localism is the answer - minimising international trade and thus wasteful consumerism - along with renewable energy. But then what of the economy? Is economic growth actually desirable or necessary? Governments chase growth relentlessly but at what cost to the planet and the future?

Then layer on ‘progress.’ International trade used to be facilitated by sailing ships. Not much environmental impact there, apart from cutting down trees to build them (which actually may have been a big impact!). Now we have huge fossil fuel driven container ships.

National and international travel used to be the preserve of the wealthy. Now almost anybody can fly to Spain or France for a holiday. Is that a good thing? Will the population really be willing to sacrifice their ability to travel freely, to buy what they want when they want it - can progress be turned around? I very much doubt it.

And what has that progress been built on? Largely the ‘old’ countries of the West plundering the resources of poorer nations in order to fuel their economies. The EU still thrives on a variation of that with free movement of labour. The poorer countries of Southern and Eastern Europe are hampered in their ability to develop as their best and brightest move North to fuel the economies of the richer nations. I digress. Is it right for those ‘old’ countries to now deny the same economic progress to growing economies? But then, what of the impact on the environment of those ‘new’ economies growing?

Complex? I should say so!

[Bluemarlin]

13 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

You need to divert your rose-tinted glasses away from experts and see where greenhouse gases actually come from, you will find cars are pretty low down the list - in England they have negligible contribution to global emissions.  All that smog in Beijing where does it come from? No, its not cars

With China's growth, Beijng has seen a huge growth in the number of car owners. Whilst population growth, topography and coal burning factories contribute to air pollution, apparently 70% of it comes from motorised vehicles.

https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/sciencebites/chapter/causes-and-consequences-of-air-pollution-in-beijing-china/

I believe they have taken steps to address this by electrifying public transport and incentivising electric cars. So I guess China are in on the plot too.  Inscrutable buggers.

[Malc1]

6 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Happy to do that Malc if they are also willing to share in my losses during the coldest of months 😊

And you think people relying on Foodbanks can contribute to your lifestyle ....... get real please  🤥

Malc

[toffee_pie]

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

With China's growth, Beijng has seen a huge growth in the number of car owners. Whilst population growth, topography and coal burning factories contribute to air pollution, apparently 70% of it comes from motorised vehicles.

https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/sciencebites/chapter/causes-and-consequences-of-air-pollution-in-beijing-china/

I believe they have taken steps to address this by electrifying public transport and incentivising electric cars. So I guess China are in on the plot too.  Inscrutable buggers.

Are you getting paid for your EV preaching? You look like one of these 'experts'

[toffee_pie]

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

With China's growth, Beijng has seen a huge growth in the number of car owners. Whilst population growth, topography and coal burning factories contribute to air pollution, apparently 70% of it comes from motorised vehicles.

https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/sciencebites/chapter/causes-and-consequences-of-air-pollution-in-beijing-china/

I believe they have taken steps to address this by electrifying public transport and incentivising electric cars. So I guess China are in on the plot too.  Inscrutable buggers.

There are over 3 million cars in Tokyo and the air is clean as a whistle, this is from experience also as I was there twice and my last visit was years ago when they did not even have any EV market dominance.

So, try again - its not the cars thats the problem

[dutchie01]

15 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

There are over 3 million cars in Tokyo and the air is clean as a whistle, this is from experience also as I was there twice and my last visit was years ago when they did not even have any EV market dominance.

So, try again - its not the cars thats the problem

So you have been there and found the air clean as a whistle so whats the problem. Seriously?

 

[dutchie01]

20 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Are you getting paid for your EV preaching? You look like one of these 'experts'

Are you paid for EV trashing?

[Bluemarlin]

32 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

There are over 3 million cars in Tokyo and the air is clean as a whistle, this is from experience also as I was there twice and my last visit was years ago when they did not even have any EV market dominance.

So, try again - its not the cars thats the problem

Did you bring up Tokyo because the Beijing one didn't work?

Perhaps cars aren't entirely the problem in Tokyo, but seemingly fossil fuels were. Tokyo also has some of the toughest environmental regulations in the world. That said, the biggest forms of air polution in Tokyo are still factory fumes and vehicle emissions, which they intend to address by toughening up regulations on industry and diesel vehicles, and subsidising EVs.

https://earth.org/data_visualization/the-history-of-air-pollution-in-tokyo/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/2015/summer2015/bringing_the_view_of_fuji_back_to_tokyo.html

https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13822414

Clearly the Japanese must think cars are part of the problem. They must be in on it too.

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, toffee_pie said:

Are you getting paid for your EV preaching? You look like one of these 'experts'

I don't claim to be an expert, nor am I preaching EVs. I'm just pointing out that there are equally valid alternatives and contradictions to the narrative you seem to be preaching. Or would you prefer people just accept what you're saying, without question?

I honestly don't know for certain if EVs are better for the planet, either socially or environmentally, and just think that they're the next step technologically, in the same way that we use computers today, and not an abacus.

I do happen to believe though that ICE technology is somewhat dated and inefficient. In fact it was 130 years ago when some of the first cars produced were electric. They were considered better then, and the only reason ICE vehicles took off was because of lack of Battery power, compared to abundant fossil fuels.  Today we're better placed to tackle the fuel issue.

Nor am I concerned by any fears of secret government agendas to track us via electric vehicles. It's too late for me to protect myself from that anyway, as I've already had my covid jab chip implant, that they can track from 5g towers 😉

[Mr Vlad]

Covid jab chip implant. Love it 🤣

You forgot Google. 

[Malc1]

Gentlemen or nay    😅

back to basics please

FUEL PANIC

is there a sensible reason why non EV transport couldn't be driven with CLEANER fuels emissions ?

sat BETTER cats etc

and thereby enabling us all to drive our wonderful petrol cars with a non Climate Change effect clear conscience ..  that conscience extending of course to the non depletion of ground source assets ( non renewables ) and the population physical harm that mining for EV propulsion products entails they tell us

It is well argued here and everywhere that EV is NOT a clean climate change source of propulsion and itself causes much harm to the environment and society digging the stuff outta the ground

EV is bad

Petrol and diesel is bad too

I personally don't see any argument for EV being any less BAD in " the round "

 

Malc

 

[Mr Vlad]

Well said Malc. Wether a car be petrol diesel a mix of petrol and gas or indeed EV. All these power sources suit different folk. Neither is overall better than the other. However each has a superior attribute. 

Now an ideal,me thinks, is a car as frugal as a diesel as quick acceleration as an EV and sounds like a petrol V6 and even V8 then we'd be happy bunnies 🐰 

[Bluemarlin]

I don't know if there is a sensible reason Malc, as I'm sure it's possible, and would offer a viable alternative.

The three problems I can see are:

1. Car manufcturers seem to be onboard with ending fossil fuel propulsion, and so all/most research and development will go into EVs/batteries/hydrogen.

2. Following the above, as EV's become more common and cheaper, there'll be less demand for ICE cars, reducing any incentive to produce zero emissions further.

3. The political issues. EV's give a greater opportunity for autonomy of fuel supply, with electricity being able to be generated in a variety of ways, thus removing the dependence on foreign oil.

You may be right that EV isn't any less bad overall, it just seems that momentum is moving in that direction, with seemingly little chance of that changing.

[Illogan]

I think that Soylent Green will possibly be the final solution

[Mr Vlad]

Car manufacturers are only on board in ending fossil fuel propulsion for one simple reason. Because of the self indulgence of power crazed morons in the European Union who are strangling the emissions to a level that makes it impossible without HUGE investment by those car manufacturers that they've got no ruddy choice. 

[Malc1]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

without HUGE investment by those car manufacturers that they've got no ruddy choice. 

this is totally non-sensical overall  ........ the western nations that are worried about using fossil fuels are but a minority all over the world in usage of cars, trucks, buses etc

Most of Africa, Asia, South America-s won't be able, quite simply to use EVs Charging Points in the middle of the Gobi Desert and similar ----- I mentioned prior somewhere  ..  Toyota will be the biggest global car producer still it's just that the petrol and diesel models won't ever be produced in the UK and the western nations which are obliterating the use of new fossil fuel cars from 2035

It's just that the UK will be competing with Germany, France, Ireland etc for the Toyota spend and investment to produce new EV cars ........ and we sadly just won't win on that front I'm sure 

And the Toyota spend on new petrol and diesel cars factories will be going to say India, Bangladesh Mexico etc where the costs of production and willingness to have production in those countries will make them even stronger and of course India will just beat the pants off the rest of the civilised world at some point ......  and soon methinks ............ 

 

Really don't understand the futility of UK NOT trying to burn our old fashioned fossil fuel needs cleaner and better by maybe add-on simple technology 

Better and new style add-on catalytic converters, washing the exhaust and other emissions at point of discharge ....  for heavens sake, we can put spaceships around and nuclear bombs into Russia ( I guess ) so why oh why can't we, the UK develop some sort of " washing " emissions  stuff

thereby preserving the delightfully silent V8 ................  like my Ls400 

 

Malc

 

Malc

[Mr Vlad]

I was on about cars manufacturered for the European Market Malc. They won't spend the HUGE amounts needed to lower the emissions for the European and possibly the North American Market. However for the nations that you've mentioned they can and will produce the petrol and diesel engined cars where their emissions are not bothered about anywhere as much as Europe. 

[Las Palmas]

Knowing that none of us can convince those loving EV’s, that they are helping nothing at all with regard to climate crisis; and that becoming dependent on China to deliver batteries is not nearly as bad than being dependent of gas and oil from Russia; and that our stupid politicians have all the rights in the world to only care about being re-elected, I will now accept that stupidity is a virtue allowed to us all.

EV’s will resolve all climate changing problems, so we do no longer have to worry.

Our elected politicians are doing the best job possible to solve everything for us.

And we and our children and those coming later are going towards a glorious future with no problems; they will be able to annul all the errors we and our forefathers have made.

So now I will sit down and smoke a virtual peace pipe (virtual because I know smoking is bad for health) and drink a strong cup of Mokka.

 

 

       

 

 

And the genius said:   Imagination is more important than knowledge.

[toffee_pie]

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

....It just seems that momentum is moving in that direction, with seemingly little chance of that changing.

Of course the momentum is moving in that direction, governments banning Combustion cars might have something to do with it, a crazy idea of mine 

[toffee_pie]

23 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Did you bring up Tokyo because the Beijing one didn't work?

Perhaps cars aren't entirely the problem in Tokyo, but seemingly fossil fuels were. Tokyo also has some of the toughest environmental regulations in the world. That said, the biggest forms of air polution in Tokyo are still factory fumes and vehicle emissions, which they intend to address by toughening up regulations on industry and diesel vehicles, and subsidising EVs.

https://earth.org/data_visualization/the-history-of-air-pollution-in-tokyo/

https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/2015/summer2015/bringing_the_view_of_fuji_back_to_tokyo.html

https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13822414

Clearly the Japanese must think cars are part of the problem. They must be in on it too.

Beijing stinks from pollution due to industrial work, Tokyo very much less so.

You come across as a bit of a keyboard warrior type, have you been to Beijing, have you been to Tokyo? I've been to both, plus Shenzhen and many more cities in China. 

Now, back to Google with you