Fuel panic!

[javadude]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

It isn't one or the other but a mixture. You would charge at home before leaving, top up at speed and return near empty to charge back up again overnight. If you were just using high speed public chargers it would be expensive, but most people don't.

That's how it usually works for me: My car has a range of 300 miles and the most I do in a day is about 200 so I charge overnight before and after at 5p/kWh (about 1.5 p/mile). I only used rapid chargers when I'm staying away. In November my overnight rate will increase but as long its less than about 60p/kWh it'll still be cheaper than my petrol hybrid would have been. Even if its not it would still be worth it to pollute less over the lifetime of the car. Plus 0-60 in less than 4 seconds is fun 😉

[toffee_pie]

2 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2022/06/tipping-point-reached-as-more-nearly-half-of-uk-car-buyers-seek-electric-vehicle

This was from the Summer. No great surprises here from my perspective. Interesting all the same the main reasons why people are considering the switch.

Rising penalties on internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles are cited as the main driver to buy an EV in the UK (46%), followed by environmental concerns (45%).

So basically coercion - it’s not for cost savings that’s for sure - the cost of EVs is so much that you could buy a few solid petrol cars, run them into the ground and they would have a cheaper TCO than any modern EV that cost 50/60k or more.

Environmental concern is net zero, which is just a con - it’s funny that ministers and politicians are swanning around in jets and travelling first class, they don’t seem to be too distracted by this. 

[Boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

 

Unfortunately those with EV cars have fallen for the greater con. I've been saying that for years.

Now I am intrigued, what is the “greater con”?

[Mr Vlad]

I don't know where the 'greater' got in. It should have read great con. Don't ask me to explain as I can't condense it to a couple of paragraphs. But basically EV's will Not help towards climate change. Its down to how they're made.

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

I don't know where the 'greater' got in. It should have read great con. Don't ask me to explain as I can't condense it to a couple of paragraphs. But basically EV's will Not help towards climate change. Its down to how they're made.

I think the more convincing argument is air pollution in populated areas. The manufacturing of EV's can be done where it has less effect on populated areas, whereas cars are driven in the most in heavily populated areas. So, it's more environmental than specifically about climate change.

[toffee_pie]

3 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

Now I am intrigued, what is the “greater con”?

Erm, they are crazy more expensive to run over a petrol car? net zero is something spoon fed into your brain. 

If you want to take out finance for a EV to 'save' imaginary money over a petrol car and do your all important net zero contributions by all accounts crack on with it

[toffee_pie]

41 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think the more convincing argument is air pollution in populated areas. The manufacturing of EV's can be done where it has less effect on populated areas, whereas cars are driven in the most in heavily populated areas. So, it's more environmental than specifically about climate change.

There is nothing eco-friendly about EVs, for a solitary manufacturer selling 2 million EVs a year they would need to manufacture around 95491088758 lithium batteries by 2030 - that is 2 million but with 5 percent sales increase each year - they want profits, don’t they? now add the dozen or so other manufacturers onto the EV bandwagon and see how many batteries are needed and they don’t grow on trees and that excludes all the other electronic components associated with electric cars - and 2.43 million sales in 2029 is pretty generous

They are needed for one thing, control – governments don’t want you to drive in 2030 and they are also needed for social credit and monitoring of people – its not possible with what are basically analogue cars of old

I can lease out a Tesla at work, 500/600 a month on a salary sacrifice but why? what is in it for me? after two years I hand the keys back - what benefit will I ever see?

Nothing

And all the data manufacturer’s give you is trash - what is the range doing a constant speed of 60/70 mph, what about hauling something? do they factor in using climate control for all your passengers, keeping your heated seat on in the cold and having your sound system blaring out music? all that will drain your Battery so probably no

A Skoda Enyaq thing lost over 120 miles range on a test recently hauling a caravan over 35 minutes - this is what the reality is. A 30 year old LS400 could haul that across the country without trying and in much better comfort as I could in my Subaru - without stoping once

They don’t give you anything other than the figures they have magically made up in controlled laboratory conditions

[Las Palmas]

46 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I think the more convincing argument is air pollution in populated areas. The manufacturing of EV's can be done where it has less effect on populated areas, whereas cars are driven in the most in heavily populated areas. So, it's more environmental than specifically about climate change.

You do not mean that if we pollute in Africa the effect will not be global!

[dutchie01]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:02 PM, Boxbrownie said:

 

Many people buy EVs because they like the way they drive and the actual car, once you get this out of your head then the fuel cost issue is irrelevant, just like some buy a massive V8 petrol because they like the car, the money for fuel is irrelevant. 🤣

Could not agree more. Currently have a plug in Volvo and i wish it was full EV. Torque, silence, elasticity no gearchange no vibrations just a powerful mountain of torque that effortlessly moves you along. I will not buy an ICE anymore for sure.

 

[Bluemarlin]

12 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

You do not mean that if we pollute in Africa the effect will not be global!

No, I mean that manufacturing can be done away from populations, whereas driving can't. I'm not referring to climate change, but the polution from vehicle emissions in populated areas.

[Bluemarlin]

12 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

They are needed for one thing, control – governments don’t want you to drive in 2030 and they are also needed for social credit and monitoring of people – its not possible with what are basically analogue cars of old

And all the data manufacturer’s give you is trash - what is the range doing a constant speed of 60/70 mph, what about hauling something? do they factor in using climate control for all your passengers, keeping your heated seat on in the cold and having your sound system blaring out music?
 

Monitoring and control can be done in any car, it's not exclusive to EVs. Analogue cars of old will disappear soon enough, regardless of what method of propulsion is used.

So what will your argument be when we have EVs with a 1000 mile range? The reality is that electric cars are simply better on a number of levels. The only thing currently holding them back is the tech that powers them, which ultimately will catch up as demand rises and investment increases.

There are valid arguments against the current limitations of EVs, but paranoia about governments isn't one of them.

[Las Palmas]

13 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

No, I mean that manufacturing can be done away from populations, whereas driving can't. I'm not referring to climate change, but the polution from vehicle emissions in populated areas.

Such way of thinking is stupidly inhuman. Do you mean that the global situation is less important when rich people in cities can drive with less pollution than the problems for poor people that are mining the dangerous material for the batteries needed and the sea water is rising making islands inhabitable and that children are dying in overflooded areas of the world due to the climate change?

[Malc1]

isn't there a quite simple equation here to be refuted by some, admonished by others or indeed supported

EVs are good for some, good for many BUT with £££ in short supply for most people the prospect of getting an EV is simply " pie in the sky "

Of the 26 million ? cars on the roads in the UK and in this economic climate ....  just how many people can afford to buy,lease,rent whatever a new car ........ I can but won't but I'm thinking I'm in a huge minority of people with too much money left at the end of the month ............ and I certainly wouldn't " invest" in a new car 

Nope. most car owners will simply be trading up to a replacement secondhand fossil fuel car with the end of the line cars going on those ships to parts of Africa for their true end of life ............  after a few more years good use

Whatever we enlightened Lexus drivers might think  .  old and well used fossil fuel cars are with the planet for many decades to come, somewhere in the world .............. and as an aside, my chatting with that 1989 Ls400 guy ( see my post ) he told me that so many Ls400 engines are being used in all sorts of guises in the USA, especially not ordinary cars ...  and was i reading some way back that the Ls400 engine had been approved by the USA air authorities for use in light aircraft ...  so there goes another source of Ls400 pollution ..  you're breathing it in from " up high " 😅

 

I am in fact noticing these past months that the local " breakers " yard looks bereft of stock too

Malc

[Bluemarlin]

18 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Such way of thinking is stupidly inhuman. Do you mean that the global situation is less important when rich people in cities can drive with less pollution than the problems for poor people that are mining the dangerous material for the batteries needed and the sea water is rising making islands inhabitable and that children are dying in overflooded areas of the world due to the climate change?

Once again, that's not what I'm saying.

I was merely pointing out that the argument for EVs is less convincing regarding climate change, and more so when talking about emissions pollution in populated areas. For the record, poor people drive in heavily populated areas too, and suffer the effects of pollution.  In fact in many cases poorer communites suffer more.

I'm with you on climate change, and don't know what the most effective course of action is.

[Malc1]

34 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

and don't know what the most effective course of action is.

simply burn cleaner ............. fossil fuels are in plentiful supply once drilled for etc  ....  oil, gas and coal being the old fashioned ones

SO THEN why not just get them to burn cleanly .  it can be done, they tried it with catalytic converters on cars and washing the gases from coal powered Power Stations  .  just needs doing better and more effectively methinks

It's certainly not beyond the wit of man to do this .  it just needs the clever scientists to get their acts together with universal Govts support  ( as if that would ever happen 😂 ) and fossil fuel cars can live for ever I'm sure

Malc

[dutchie01]

3 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

simply burn cleaner ............. fossil fuels are in plentiful supply once drilled for etc  ....  oil, gas and coal being the old fashioned ones

SO THEN why not just get them to burn cleanly .  it can be done, they tried it with catalytic converters on cars and washing the gases from coal powered Power Stations  .  just needs doing better and more effectively methinks

It's certainly not beyond the wit of man to do this .  it just needs the clever scientists to get their acts together with universal Govts support  ( as if that would ever happen 😂 ) and fossil fuel cars can live for ever I'm sure

Malc

I think it is not economically viable to do that. Oil would be too expensive, gas would be too plus other issue ( the largest gasfield in Europe is below the most northern province in The Netherlands but extraction stopped as earthquakes from this was severely damaging houses). Fracking oil is expensive and is only economical at high oilprices.

Car manufacturers have stopped developing small ICE engines as it would be too costly to engineer them to meet the stricktest emission standards, the cars would be unsellable.

It is pretty complicated alas..

[flotsam]

The other shoe drops!

With the increasing cost of electricity, the case for Battery power looks less attractive. That is, unless you have your own solar panels and wind turbines.

David Cameron, however, removed the subsidy for households to buy their own renewable energy. So they want you to spend your own money.

And don't expect the utility companies to buy your spare energy at a fair price. Apparently, Octopus offer the best rates but you'll probably only get about £100 a year for your excess energy.

Here's my latest gobsmacking utility prices. The first 2kW is charged at a higher rate, which is why there are two prices:

Gas
======
Apr21
21.198     +1.83%
2.957    +3.21%
Oct21
21.414    +1.02%
3.984    +34.73%
Apr22
25.821    +20.58% +21.81% yoy
7.323    +83.81% +247.65% yoy
Oct22
29.298    +13.47%    +36.82% yoy
10.614    +44.94% +166.42% yoy

Electricity
=======
Apr21
31.836    +5.21%
17.811    +8.14%
Oct21
34.04    +6.92%
19.8    +11.17%
Apr22
51.26    +50.59%    +61.01% yoy
27.78    +40.30% +55.97% yoy
Oct22
56.622    +10.46% +66.34% yoy
32.521    +17.07% +64.25% yoy

This is why the French have been donning their gilet jaunes!

Petrol prices are still falling.
 

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

Once again, that's not what I'm saying.

I was merely pointing out that the argument for EVs is less convincing regarding climate change, and more so when talking about emissions pollution in populated areas. For the record, poor people drive in heavily populated areas too, and suffer the effects of pollution.  In fact in many cases poorer communites suffer more.

I'm with you on climate change, and don't know what the most effective course of action is.

If you have been living all your life in so called civilized world you have no idea how poor people live. Poor people do not drive cars. If they are lucky they have something to eat.

 

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, Malc1 said:

simply burn cleaner .....

It's certainly not beyond the wit of man to do this .  it just needs the clever scientists to get their acts together with universal Govts support  ( as if that would ever happen 😂 ) and fossil fuel cars can live for ever I'm sure

Malc

You are right Malc.

Government will never do what is best. All the elected (by us) will do is what give the best chances to get re-elected. Just look at the idiots mumbling and arguing about the silliest things in your own government. Most important is to make my opponent look silly so I can get re-elected.

Do not talk about bribery, that is prohibited. Talk about being lobbied!

 

 

[royoftherovers]

32 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

You are right Malc.

Government will never do what is best. All the elected (by us) will do is what give the best chances to get re-elected. Just look at the idiots mumbling and arguing about the silliest things in your own government. Most important is to make my opponent look silly so I can get re-elected.

Do not talk about bribery, that is prohibited. Talk about being lobbied!

 

 

Lobbied is to Bribery as High Spirits is to Vandalism, discuss !

[Malc1]

There is soooo much oil under the seas all around the world and would be economically viable to extract ...... at the right price of course 

trouble is the more they extract the lower the price goes and profits diminish ...... of course 

And of course as soon as this debacle and tragedy of war in Ukraine stops then Russian oil and gas will be sold to everyone again with a “safe” Ruskie Govt allowed to receive it ok  ....... to pay for the war damage repairing Ukraine  

£600 billion is it up to now ?
 

Oil and gas abounds and the price will be / can be affordable sometime soon if the world Govts allow 

And just burn it all cleaner to save the planet and stop this Climate Change 

Much more sensible cleaning up and / or cutting down on emissions should enable us to make use of this immense world supply of available fossil fuels 

EVs are preposterous for posterity and methinks should be rapidly pushed up a Musk posterior 

 

Malc

 

[Bluemarlin]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

If you have been living all your life in so called civilized world you have no idea how poor people live. Poor people do not drive cars. If they are lucky they have something to eat.

 

Ye gods! I go outside for a few hours, to remove my wheels, clean up and do a bit of rustproofing and, in my absence, I'm painted as a heartless planet killer.

I'm aware that there's extreme poverty in some parts of the world, whilst there is excess and waste in others. It's not only tragic, but morally wrong, in my opinion.

My comment wasn't to argue the rights and wrongs of electric propulsion vs fossil fuels, either practically or sociopolitically, it was to point out that the more compelling argument for EVs is that of air polution in populated areas, rather than climate change. I understand that there is exploitation in some areas of the manufacturing process, and that is a political issue that needs to be addressed seperately.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Ye gods! I go outside for a few hours, to remove my wheels, clean up and do a bit of rustproofing and, in my absence, I'm painted as a heartless planet killer.

I'm aware that there's extreme poverty in some parts of the world, whilst there is excess and waste in others. It's not only tragic, but morally wrong, in my opinion.

My comment wasn't to argue the rights and wrongs of electric propulsion vs fossil fuels, either practically or sociopolitically, it was to point out that the more compelling argument for EVs is that of air polution in populated areas, rather than climate change. I understand that there is exploitation in some areas of the manufacturing process, and that is a political issue that needs to be addressed seperately.

I do not at all believe you are bad or heartless Bill. I think you are just as little informed and thinking the same way as most of us rich people.

I was lucky enough to be rich and curious and went out in the world to see what it's like out there. Spent time in Africa and Asia and found it interesting to walk in mountains and see the beauty there. Then I found that people looking different to me were just as curious and interested in learning what they did not know as I was and found friends I still have. Rich people and poor people have same value. No matter if black, yellow or white skinned none are better or worse.

Unfortunately, ignorant rich people seemed to think that they were allowed to take from the poor and in my eyes, the worst are the racists; stealing from poor because they have better weapons. Seeing what is happening in our rich countries I feel sorry for the idiots that think they are better because they have more than they need and that those that have little or nothing are worth - nothing. Racist political parties are getting bigger in Europe. We were raised to believe that the goal is to get more than we need, and the more we get, the more we need. Some needs castles and some are happy if they have a place to rest their heads and food to fill the stomach. The world has enough to feed us all and still the rich want more. Some years ago, there was so much wheat that the price for it was going too far down for those selling it, and instead of giving it to people that did still not have money to buy it, it was burned to make electricity. Keep the price up!

I am very happy that I went out to see the world, finding out that there is more happiness in having friends than money.

Yes, exploitation is a political issue, that will never be addressed as long as some think they are worth more than others.

[Phil xxkr]

7 hours ago, flotsam said:

The other shoe drops!

With the increasing cost of electricity, the case for battery power looks less attractive. That is, unless you have your own solar panels and wind turbines.

David Cameron, however, removed the subsidy for households to buy their own renewable energy. So they want you to spend your own money.

And don't expect the utility companies to buy your spare energy at a fair price. Apparently, Octopus offer the best rates but you'll probably only get about £100 a year for your excess energy.

Here's my latest gobsmacking utility prices. The first 2kW is charged at a higher rate, which is why there are two prices:

Gas
======
Apr21
21.198     +1.83%
2.957    +3.21%
Oct21
21.414    +1.02%
3.984    +34.73%
Apr22
25.821    +20.58% +21.81% yoy
7.323    +83.81% +247.65% yoy
Oct22
29.298    +13.47%    +36.82% yoy
10.614    +44.94% +166.42% yoy

Electricity
=======
Apr21
31.836    +5.21%
17.811    +8.14%
Oct21
34.04    +6.92%
19.8    +11.17%
Apr22
51.26    +50.59%    +61.01% yoy
27.78    +40.30% +55.97% yoy
Oct22
56.622    +10.46% +66.34% yoy
32.521    +17.07% +64.25% yoy

This is why the French have been donning their gilet jaunes!

Petrol prices are still falling.
 

I have been with Octopus Outgoing Agile since August 10th this year and so far I have "earned" more than £100 from exported electricity resulting from excess solar from my PV /battery installation after having my energy needs covered. 

[royoftherovers]

54 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

I do not at all believe you are bad or heartless Bill. I think you are just as little informed and thinking the same way as most of us rich people.

I was lucky enough to be rich and curious and went out in the world to see what it's like out there. Spent time in Africa and Asia and found it interesting to walk in mountains and see the beauty there. Then I found that people looking different to me were just as curious and interested in learning what they did not know as I was and found friends I still have. Rich people and poor people have same value. No matter if black, yellow or white skinned none are better or worse.

Unfortunately, ignorant rich people seemed to think that they were allowed to take from the poor and in my eyes, the worst are the racists; stealing from poor because they have better weapons. Seeing what is happening in our rich countries I feel sorry for the idiots that think they are better because they have more than they need and that those that have little or nothing are worth - nothing. Racist political parties are getting bigger in Europe. We were raised to believe that the goal is to get more than we need, and the more we get, the more we need. Some needs castles and some are happy if they have a place to rest their heads and food to fill the stomach. The world has enough to feed us all and still the rich want more. Some years ago, there was so much wheat that the price for it was going too far down for those selling it, and instead of giving it to people that did still not have money to buy it, it was burned to make electricity. Keep the price up!

I am very happy that I went out to see the world, finding out that there is more happiness in having friends than money.

Yes, exploitation is a political issue, that will never be addressed as long as some think they are worth more than others.

It is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for ..............