Fuel panic!

[dutchie01]

I remember that too.. sleeping with blankets and my dads wintercoat on top of the bed. Only one coal stove heating the livingroom and that was it. Yes ice in the house in the winter was normal. Also normal the firebrigade storming through the streets to put out a coal started fire. Not everything was better in the old days..

I really think i have the solution to solve the climate crisis and nobody talks about it. We have to change the climate! I guess the best way of doing that is exactly what we like to do, dont change anything and keep on going. So where is the problem?

[Bluemarlin]

I can remember coming home from school in the winter months and jostling to get closest to the single burner paraffin heater in the kitchen.

"They asked me how I knew it was Esso Blue. I of course replied, with lower grades one buys, smoke gets in your eyes."

The old days were terrible, and central heating seemed like a gift from the gods when we moved.

[DBIZO]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

I remember that too.. sleeping with blankets and my dads wintercoat on top of the bed. Only one coal stove heating the livingroom and that was it. Yes ice in the house in the winter was normal. Also normal the firebrigade storming through the streets to put out a coal started fire. Not everything was better in the old days..

I really think i have the solution to solve the climate crisis and nobody talks about it. We have to change the climate! I guess the best way of doing that is exactly what we like to do, dont change anything and keep on going. So where is the problem?

The problem is that changing the climate means weather will be different to what's human and natural environments are built and conditioned to. Change is faster than what these environments can normally adjust to, which means gargantuan economic costs and natural damage. While it probably sounds like a good idea to have warmer winters, in the UK that could very well end up in tears frozen in an arctic winter, when and if the Gulf stream diverts from the British isles. Unless the climate stabilises (slows), change will likely keep outpacing our and living nature's ability to adapt. 

Unless you were just sarcastic...

[Las Palmas]

I believe Dutchie is sarcastic.

Yes, the Gulf stream goes just by where we live and in the 17 years we have lived here the sea water temperature has gone from around 20 Celsius to 23. We live just 100 meter from the sea and have fresh air in so need no aircondition here, but where temperature in night was around 20 it is now around 25.

Our children will probably live with whatever our stupid politicians decide "to do or not to do" but if our grandchildren will have a reasonable life if temperatures keep climbing and forest fires keeps burning and water reservoires keep holding less water can be questionable.

[Boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Malc said:

Lots thank you  ...  I also quite remember as a young lad there never was house " central heating " apart from the kitchen coke boiler feeding the hot water tank in the bathroom upstairs . such luxury ..... and waking up in the morning scraping the ice off the inside of my bedroom window ..  wearing plenty of jumpers etc .....  in London SE15 at that time 

Just use it all now sensibly, there's enough to last mankind forever methinks with creating and using renewables too 

Malc

We had just the coal fire in the front room of the council flat in London, the other four bedrooms were never heated, even our first house in the 70’s only had a electric fire in the lounge fitted by the builder, and back then gas was again so much cheaper than electric I fitted a balanced flue gas fire in its place within the first couple of months, no corgi approved legislation back then.

 

Ice on the inside of the bedroom windows?  You were lucky you had glass………🤣

 

que Monty Python Yorkshiremen sketch.

 

[Malc]

I'm still at a loss to understand how using non-renewables, fossil fuels say, very very efficiently and preventing pollutants emerging  ( super catalytic converters on cars say ) is any different in reality, or more polluting, to using renewables  ........  equally efficiently 

No-one's explained that, other than to ask if I have children and grandchildren .......  great grandchildren even ! 

There's mountains of fossil fuels under the sea ( an inverted pun ) which being used quite extensively will not diminish one tiny jot in our humankind everyday use

Climate change is a different Q I believe and irreverent to the careful use of fossil fuels 

AND the price of energy for everyday use will just come crashing down and appease humankind in general .......  businesses too ..... if and when the politicos ALLOW their mining and use 

It's the pollutants ( including politicians )  that are the cause of Climate Change and NOT I understand the credible and careful use of fossil fuels 

Discuss  !

 

Malc

[Las Palmas]

2 minutes ago, Malc said:

I'm still at a loss to understand how using non-renewables, fossil fuels say, very very efficiently and preventing pollutants emerging  ( super catalytic converters on cars say ) is any different in reality, or more polluting, to using renewables  ........  equally efficiently 

No-one's explained that, other than to ask if I have children and grandchildren .......  great grandchildren even ! 

There's mountains of fossil fuels under the sea ( an inverted pun ) which being used quite extensively will not diminish one tiny jot in our humankind everyday use

Climate change is a different Q I believe and irreverent to the careful use of fossil fuels 

AND the price of energy for everyday use will just come crashing down and appease humankind in general .......  businesses too ..... if and when the politicos ALLOW their mining and use 

It's the pollutants ( including politicians )  that are the cause of Climate Change and NOT I understand the credible and careful use of fossil fuels 

Discuss  !

 

Malc

Yes Malc, discuss

tons of fossil fuels that will burn well and make pollution just like we have been doing a long time. Ozone layer deteriorating, skin cancer multiply. Exhaust gas from engines burning fossil fuel is not good for health.

As long as all political parties are "green" in the way that they will reduce man made pollution if it does not harm economy or the rich (super rich), we will destroy the possibility for our younger generations children to live as good a life as we have been living. We cut down trees faster than new ones grow and still think nature will take care of itself; nature will, but that will be without stupid humans destroying the planet.

Burning coal to make electricity is just as stupid as building atomic power plants as long as we do not know how to store the used fuel. The other way around is the same. Only fuel, known today, that is renewable and not giving us a problem how to store the used fuel is hydrogen. Come from water and when burned returns to water. Electricity can be made from wind, water (rivers or tide) without much pollution.

Produce food to feed livestock and not people are a total waste.

 

 

 

[Malc]

7 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

tons of fossil fuels that will burn well and make pollution just like we have been doing a long time. Ozone layer deteriorating, skin cancer multiply. Exhaust gas from engines burning fossil fuel is not good for health.

concur  ......  that's why I say to burn them super efficiently to ensure those pollutants are just NOT created ............... I can't see any useful reason not to burn non-renewable fossil fuels  ( oil and gas particularly )  just so long as they don't allow pollutants to emerge and be the cause of Climate Change 

It's not the use of fossil fuels, it's simply the mis-use of them that's the problem surely !

Malc

[Las Palmas]

8 minutes ago, Malc said:

concur  ......  that's why I say to burn them super efficiently to ensure those pollutants are just NOT created ............... I can't see any useful reason not to burn non-renewable fossil fuels  ( oil and gas particularly )  just so long as they don't allow pollutants to emerge and be the cause of Climate Change 

It's not the use of fossil fuels, it's simply the mis-use of them that's the problem surely !

Malc

All use of fossil fuels is mis-use if there is something that is not polluting. It has been known for almost as long as we (we mean you and I) have been living that there is, but our stupid elected leaders have only one thing in mind and that is not something that has anything to do with helping their population.

[Malc]

5 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

if there is something that is not polluting

there's plenty of non-polluting renewables ...  just simply not enuf of it at all  ......  and in the meantime the energy supply pricing goes thru' the roof and people die for want of inexpensive energy .......... now's surely the time to enable fossil fuels to be used more ....  and but more sensibly ......  to bring the cost down and to simply save peoples lives and mental health ......  and the NHS I'm reading too

super cats might help and surely they can be produced and kwikfitted somehow ............  job creation .............for the 22 million cars needing this level of tlc no doubt

BUT of course we KNOW that cars are but a tiny smidgen of the overall pollutant problem 

I KNOW that clean washing of coal powered power station fumes / smoke emissions is quite possible and already invented ....  just that the  " Green Brigade  " have decided that coal ain't no good eh !

Climate Change ............. really doesn't have to be the blame name for non-renewables being used 

Malc

[DBIZO]

4 minutes ago, Malc said:

I'm still at a loss to understand how using non-renewables, fossil fuels say, very very efficiently and preventing pollutants emerging  ( super catalytic converters on cars say ) is any different in reality, or more polluting, to using renewables  ........  equally efficiently 

No-one's explained that, other than to ask if I have children and grandchildren .......  great grandchildren even ! 

There's mountains of fossil fuels under the sea ( an inverted pun ) which being used quite extensively will not diminish one tiny jot in our humankind everyday use

Climate change is a different Q I believe and irreverent to the careful use of fossil fuels 

AND the price of energy for everyday use will just come crashing down and appease humankind in general .......  businesses too ..... if and when the politicos ALLOW their mining and use 

It's the pollutants ( including politicians )  that are the cause of Climate Change and NOT I understand the credible and careful use of fossil fuels 

Discuss  !

 

Malc

Unsure what you mean by careful use of fossil fuels that don't contribute to climate change. Burning fossil fuels produces greenhouse gases, predominantly carbon dioxide, and I don't think there is a practical way to capture them for mobility applications. Even for stationary, it would take massive filtration systems and unfathomably vast repositories. Burning a litre of petrol produces something like 2.5 kilograms of carbon dioxide, you can't just simply filter it or store it. You may not consider CO2 a pollutant, but for all intents and purposes it actually is.

Your underlying sentiment that we need to keep investing in fossil fuel technology is of course a valid one. More efficient use of fossil fuels is still the most effective tool in curbing global emissions in a given time for a given amount of financial, industrial and natural resources. What you would really need to be careful with is that such investments do not lead to increased consumption, which is known as Jevon's paradox. There are policy tools to achieve that (quotas and taxation) through making fossil fuels progressively more costly, although they are difficult to maintain in popular democracies due to people voting politicians out who try to make energy more expensive. But ban on combustion engines in the name of emission controls is counterproductive - it makes manufacturers stop investing in combustion engine development, which means millions of cars will not receive new engine designs, lifting emissions. 

The fallacy of full EVs is ignoring the most basic premise of economics, which is that we are allocating limited resources, and also that we are up against the clock too. EVs are extremely wasteful and slow to ramp up, and exacerbate the power generation problem. Wind and solar are ineffective because they are not dispatchable.

[Las Palmas]

47 minutes ago, Malc said:

there's plenty of non-polluting renewables ...  just simply not enuf of it at all  ......  and in the meantime the energy supply pricing goes thru' the roof and people die for want of inexpensive energy .......... now's surely the time to enable fossil fuels to be used more ....  and but more sensibly ......  to bring the cost down and to simply save peoples lives and mental health ......  and the NHS I'm reading too

super cats might help and surely they can be produced and kwikfitted somehow ............  job creation .............for the 22 million cars needing this level of tlc no doubt

BUT of course we KNOW that cars are but a tiny smidgen of the overall pollutant problem 

I KNOW that clean washing of coal powered power station fumes / smoke emissions is quite possible and already invented ....  just that the  " Green Brigade  " have decided that coal ain't no good eh !

Climate Change ............. really doesn't have to be the blame name for non-renewables being used 

Malc

We do not agree. Super cat for 22 million cats will not be made without pollution.

We agree: Private used cars are a micro part of the pollution.

That our politicians have made us depending on fuel from Russia and batteries from China is our own fault as we have elected the idiots.

If you think that climate change is to blame or not has little to do with lack of water to irrigate, wash cars in, and much worse to drink or that the forests are burning in large areas, or that in other parts of the world than we live in see livestock dying of thirst while other countries have monsoon rain in far higher levels than usual.. It does not matter what you and I think. Reality is that several places there is no cheap drinking water for people. In Denmark water in the tabs used to be OK to drink, now (probably the last 5 - more years) in most of the wells there are so high levels of PFAS that people wanting to stay healthy (and have money) drink imported water in bottles.

 

Clean fuel production:

https://greenhydrogensystems.com/

https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2021/08/18/maersk-secures-green-e-methanol

 

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

I'm still at a loss to understand how using non-renewables, fossil fuels say, very very efficiently and preventing pollutants emerging  ( super catalytic converters on cars say ) is any different in reality, or more polluting, to using renewables  ........  equally efficiently 

No-one's explained that, other than to ask if I have children and grandchildren .......  great grandchildren even ! 

There's mountains of fossil fuels under the sea ( an inverted pun ) which being used quite extensively will not diminish one tiny jot in our humankind everyday use

Climate change is a different Q I believe and irreverent to the careful use of fossil fuels 

AND the price of energy for everyday use will just come crashing down and appease humankind in general .......  businesses too ..... if and when the politicos ALLOW their mining and use 

It's the pollutants ( including politicians )  that are the cause of Climate Change and NOT I understand the credible and careful use of fossil fuels 

Discuss  !

 

Malc

I asked because it seems your very blasé about climate change, even to the point of not believing it.

 

There is absolutely no point in “discuss” if you feel that way, sorry…keep your eyes shut, hold on and hope for the best.

 

The rides going to be very, very bumpy.

[ganzoom]

11 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

 

Only fuel, known today, that is renewable and not giving us a problem how to store the used fuel is hydrogen. .

Correct, but the only place that hydrogen exists as a fuel is the sun, and it gives life to everything on this planet.

Plants and algea learnt how to capture solar energy billions of years ago. Amazingly we have also managed to do the same with solar PVs.

Yet for some reasons people still believe burning dead animals is the way fowards??

It's all pretty irrelevant now anyways as the climate is clearly changing quickly. The best we can hope for is we are all dead before we see our children suffer the consequences, though given the rate of change, wild fires now becoming 'normal' in London I fear none of us can get out of this the easy way.

 

[Malc]

14 hours ago, DBIZO said:

it would take massive filtration systems and unfathomably vast repositories.

Yes absolutely , so why isn't industry and Govts doing the necessary research and commiting to this properly one wonders  .....  I  KNOW  coal power stations can produce clean emissions, it's been done, just that no Govt wants to take it forward 

14 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

because it seems your very blasé about climate change, even to the point of not believing it.

Absolutely NOT ..... far from blase about any of this BUT I do believe the Climate Change Brigade is causing populations around the world much misery in denying the need for better energy production and usuage styles to help those and OUR society to better and cleaner usuage .......  gluing oneself to the tarmac and diverting Emergency Services away from real peoples needs is just abhorrent in my mind

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Yet for some reasons people still believe burning dead animals is the way fowards??

I'm afraid that cremations of humans is within the Hindu religion and 1/5th of the worlds population won't be swayed by a non-starter of an argument to desist from the UK population ........  no matter how well meaning 

15 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

All use of fossil fuels is mis-use if there is something that is not polluting. It has been known for almost as long as we (we mean you and I) have been living that there is,

BUT there's simply not enough ( yet ) of non fossil fuels generation to meet the societal needs for simply economic " living "  ....  and about to cause immense hardship in society in general ..  foodbanks or nay in the UK

 

Malc

[Las Palmas]

Many of us here in the forum have been voting (or been able to) the last 50 years and we have all the blame for electing the fools that believe that making the rich richer is the way forward.

Yes: The blame is on us.

And, unfortunately: Most have learned nothing. Will vote for the same idiots again.

[dutchie01]

3 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Many of us here in the forum have been voting (or been able to) the last 50 years and we have all the blame for electing the fools that believe that making the rich richer is the way forward.

Yes: The blame is on us.

And, unfortunately: Most have learned nothing. Will vote for the same idiots again.

If you vote for a different party will that change anything?

[Boxbrownie]

31 minutes ago, Malc said:

 

Absolutely NOT ..... far from blase about any of this BUT I do believe the Climate Change Brigade is causing populations around the world much misery in denying the need for better energy production and usuage styles to help those and OUR society to better and cleaner usuage .......  gluing oneself to the tarmac and diverting Emergency Services away from real peoples needs is just abhorrent in my mind.

 

Malc

There are two types of “Climate Change Brigade” as you so eloquently put it, those that actually know the facts and are professionally working in that science and are genuinely struggling to make governments listen and move on proven technologies to help, and those that haven’t had bath for a month or I’ll informed aged hippies who believe in their dotage they can help by causing complete chaos and who should be locked up until truly educated (the unbathed type we can just burn for fuel).    
 

But they are two completely polar opposites of your Brigade.

 

Thank heaven your not a climate change denier, you had me worried. 😉

[Boxbrownie]

24 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Many of us here in the forum have been voting (or been able to) the last 50 years and we have all the blame for electing the fools that believe that making the rich richer is the way forward.

Yes: The blame is on us.

And, unfortunately: Most have learned nothing. Will vote for the same idiots again.

I’ve not seen anyone but idiots.

 

If you do, point them out please 😁

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

I’ve not seen anyone but idiots.

 

If you do, point them out please 😁

Your idea of democrazy is close to mine.

[dutchie01]

So, as the current politicians are regarded as useless baggage, if any of you would be in a position of power to solve/positively influence or handle the current situation.

What would be your suggestions?

[Phil xxkr]

2 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

So, as the current politicians are regarded as useless baggage, if any of you would be in a position of power to solve/positively influence or handle the current situation.

What would be your suggestions?

Bernard, the question that precedes yours is; what are you doing to aspire to a position of power so you can enact your suggestions 😎

[dutchie01]

Too easy Philip, your not getting off the hook that easy!   Come on, what are your suggestions?

[peniole]

To start with:

- Fix the stupidity of privatization of public utilities. Nationalization (although happening in France) seems to be a dirty word. So next best thing is cap the percent of profits private companies can squeeze out of public utilities. Furthermore, a set percentage of those profits are mandated to be put back into infrastructure development and R&D.

- De-couple gas prices from electricity generation. Only 40% of UK electricity is made from gas. Why the hell should its price be held ransom to the price of gas?

- Taxation of motorists is used for motoring related infrastructure. You want money for other projects raise it from another source of revenue. This muddying of the public purse "oh let's put it in one pot, the plebs won't notice what we're doing" has to stop.

- Ban companies lobbying politicians. Ban all gifts to politicians.

- MPs can buy their own damn lunch. I can't believe the amount of food waste reported for Westminster, 2.6 million meals binned (although they don't state the period over which that happened).

- MPs can no longer vote on their own salary rises. That is a no brainer right there.

That's off the top of my head.

[Malc]

Talk sensibly with the energy companies, global oil and gas providing companies too that provide stuff into the UK .........  tell them you're limiting their UK profits AND sale prices to ensure their end prices to the UK consumer match £XXX for howsoever long .......  ( there's a UK Govt Fuel Tax issue here too to be addresed in conjunction of course )

I'm best guessing this has already been done and just awaiting the declaration of the new Prime Minister to take all the gory glory of the results already achieved but not yet announced ......  there's a prelude to this some weeks ago when Rishi announced, just the once mind you, that the public would be paying no more for their energy when he became PM .....  this has never since been repeated, except by Sir Keir just the once too ........  I'm thinking it's all been agreed, done and dusted BUT held in the Top Secret Drawer until next week ........... with smacks on the hand for Rishi and Sir Keir too of course .........  before public beheading on Tower Green to encourage them and all else to keep schuuum 

Let's see eh !

 

Then see where this gets us before talking of Nationalisation etc which of course we know just never works in reality 

Then encourage the Falklands and Brazil to begin sensible measured development of their indigenous oil and gas fields ...............  to flood the world once again with cheap energy ..  but from a " safe " source 

 

Malc