Fuel panic!

[Malc]

9 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Shell E5, £105.43

when was this then ...  2016'ish  

Malc

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

Strangely I agree with you 100% on what road trips should be about, but I simply don't understand why you are so dismissive EVs cannot do the same??

This is our EV has been doing just today, going up and down Trollstigen not once, but THREE times, and with 6 people on board. 

The amazing thing is interms of range/charging speed pretty much any new EV onsale today in the UK matches our 5 year old X, and in many cases betters it considerably.....The facts are is absolutely no issues with EVs doing road trips, unless you choose to simply believe otherwise.

Ireland looks pretty, though Norway is going to be hard to beat.....

 

Norway has amazing scenery for sure.

Regarding EVs, the range is a bit... ???? and the Tesla fast charge is very good but if you cannot get fast charge points (which are soaring in price) then what does one do? stay in a lodge overnight? if you run all your gadgets in the car how long will it last, I can get over 400 miles on my Subaru driving at or above the NSL that is with AC on and navi unit and its sound system on, my point is you will be always worried about charging it up and how long it will take - it’s not making for a very enjoyable road trip. And a Tesla is expensive, its range will be better than most EVs that do not have the luxury of a 70+ kWh Battery pack.  The range as already mentioned will be vastly exaggerated and real-world conditions will yield far less.

Then there is the lacklustre driving experience with EVs – if you are doing road trips you want a car than can do B roads with great driving dynamics, an EV with a huge Battery pack wont quite work. The Model Y pack is over half a tonne.

 

[toffee_pie]

8 minutes ago, Malc said:

when was this then ...  2016'ish  

Malc

Should add it was £2.09/L 

Could be worse...

Sri Lanka: 'I've spent 10 days in line for petrol'

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, toffee_pie said:

my point is you will be always worried about charging it up and how long it will take - it’s not making for a very enjoyable road trip.

And my REAL LIFE experience is the exact opposite. Do you honestly think my wife, parent in laws, 6 year old would put up with a 3000 mile+ road trip if EV road tripping was the horrific experience you seem to imagine?

Again we been Scotland, Cornwall, Lakes, France in our EV during school holiday, winter etc with experienced none of the stuff you are describing.

Been a scooby owner am sure you are fully acquinted with the topic of this thread, I use to own a 335i so I know what you are on about with enjoying a good car, but this is my fuel costs for the last 30 days, and I wouldn't go trade in our EV for another combustion car even if you paid me.

I have very found memories of driving all over Switzerland in my old combustion car...

.....however our current road trip in Norway is proving even more memorable, the fact am driving an EV instead of a combustion car has made ZERO difference to anything but a significantly reduced fuel (and toll road) costs. For any one into 'performance' cars, EVs are a win-win, faster and cheaper to run, why wouldn't you want one??

 

[toffee_pie]

27 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

And my REAL LIFE experience is the exact opposite. Do you honestly think my wife, parent in laws, 6 year old would put up with a 3000 mile+ road trip if EV road tripping was the horrific experience you seem to imagine?

Again we been Scotland, Cornwall, Lakes, France in our EV during school holiday, winter etc with experienced none of the stuff you are describing.

Been a scooby owner am sure you are fully acquinted with the topic of this thread, I use to own a 335i so I know what you are on about with enjoying a good car, but this is my fuel costs for the last 30 days, and I wouldn't go trade in our EV for another combustion car even if you paid me.

I have very found memories of driving all over Switzerland in my old combustion car...

.....however our current road trip in Norway is proving even more memorable, the fact am driving an EV instead of a combustion car has made ZERO difference to anything but a significantly reduced fuel (and toll road) costs. For any one into 'performance' cars, EVs are a win-win, faster and cheaper to run, why wouldn't you want one??

 

 

I drove a £30k+ Peugeot E 208 last week at work, it was not good but prior to driving it I pretty knew what it would be like. 

Terrible electric steering with no feedback whatsoever
Handling was poor but overall, it sums up the EV for me

For someone else it could be a perfect car but we are all different and cars like this now are the only ones available if you want a new motor.

I only drove it 20 minutes but it didn’t take long to find out what an EV would be like, it was weird also of course with no engine noise. A Tesla if it ever goes wrong needs to go back to Tesla as they have all the IP so that’s a red flag for me straight away, if I drove one fast or like I drive my Subaru and I know they can go much quicker it wouldn’t last me long and I would get bored of charging it up, then there is the smartphone -esque control - I just couldn’t live with that – call me old school but its just not for me.
Fast charge costs are soaring also and their supply is limited - it’s not possible to always time a journey so you arrive back in your driveway to charge up - and they really are not good for the environment either so I wouldn’t be shouting from the rooftops that I am doing my bit for the planet.

 

 

[toffee_pie]

Going back to the fuel 'savings' - it would take years to see payback - taking the cost of a new Tesla into account - someone last week was raving about his new EV and the savings over his old petrol car, he took out a loan of 20k for these savings to occur

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, toffee_pie said:

I just couldn’t live with that – call me old school but its just not for me.

I think that's pretty clear 🤣

I've been lucky enough to own some fantastic 'divers' cars, my old DC2 Teg been the stand out. I also at one point had a deposit down ona RB5 scobby, so I know what makes a 'good' car to me.

If you haven't driven any Tesla you should, its very clear within 500 meters its a car made by people who understands the basics of handling, suspension, steering.

I'm also a realist, if life had no limitations we would will own an Aerial Atom for weekend, a S class to commuting, a G wagon for transport duties, and probably a Lambo for special occasions.

But in the real world cars have to serve a purpose and meet all the other needs of life aside from pure driving fun, and all wrapped up in the need to try atleast keep £££ costs low. 

Our EV is simply the best real world car I have ever owned, 0-60 in under 5 seconds, enough space for 6 people AND their luggage for 2.5 weeks, plus running costs cheaper than a Nissan Micra, seriously what else do you want/need in any car?

I went up/down this road 3 times today for no reason other than it was 'fun', I'll probably do it again tomorrow, especially since I have £0 in fuel costs to consider, infact I suspect you probably have spent more ££ on fuel commuting to work this week than I have enjoying some of the best driving roads in Europe 😀.

[ganzoom]

56 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Going back to the fuel 'savings' - it would take years to see payback - taking the cost of a new Tesla into account 

Acutally you would be surprised at the figures when compared to something like a Scooby that will struggle to hit 25mpg. Bare in mind virtually no upkeep costs - I've had one change of brake pads/discs in 65k miles versus needing pads every 15k, no oil changes ever, no VED etc.

Than add in depreciation that is essentially flat at present, as I keep saying, the more you enjoy/willing to spend ££££ on a 'performance' combustion car the MORE an EV just makes sense.

A brand new M3 wagon costs only £3k less than a Taycan cross turismo, factor a Taycan will have a fraction the running costs of a M3, am not sure who in their mind would choose a M3 wagon over a Taycan?

EVs are the default choice already in the upper end of new car market, the lower end is much harder nut to crack but getting there.

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

Acutally you would be surprised at the figures when compared to something like a Scooby that will struggle to hit 25mpg. Bare in mind virtually no upkeep costs - I've had one change of brake pads/discs in 65k miles versus needing pads every 15k, no oil changes ever, no VED etc.

Than add in depreciation that is essentially flat at present, as I keep saying, the more you enjoy/willing to spend ££££ on a 'performance' combustion car the MORE an EV just makes sense.

A brand new M3 wagon costs only £3k less than a Taycan cross turismo, factor a Taycan will have a fraction the running costs of a M3, am not sure who in their mind would choose a M3 wagon over a Taycan?

EVs are the default choice already in the upper end of new car market, the lower end is much harder nut to crack but getting there.

You never answered the range of it, how fast do you drive between recharges? if you can do 60/70mph and get 400 miles that is pretty decent - towing anything? how does that impact the range? An EV on full throttle would run out of juice sooner than any regular performance gasoline car would - be it a Lexus, Subaru or anything else, they would have enough fuel to last hundreds of miles further

VED is £0 now but you think our politicians will have it like this in 5 years time? no chance is the answer.

I am not sold on the handling, having a Battery that weights over half a tonne is not doing any favours, no matter how you try to spin it, 2 tonnes is a lot of metal to be hauling you would hardly be able to push that to the roadside if it broke down.

Lets put it this way, when I decide to get another car I would sooner get a V8 over any EV - life is too short and all that and I predict that in 2030 and beyond there will be a demand for older vehicles when people get tired of the EVs that was forced upon everyone, the level of automation then is going to be pretty scary - turning on heated seats remotely should be the least of ones worry.

[Boxbrownie]

11 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Acutally you would be surprised at the figures when compared to something like a Scooby that will struggle to hit 25mpg. Bare in mind virtually no upkeep costs - I've had one change of brake pads/discs in 65k miles versus needing pads every 15k, no oil changes ever, no VED etc.

Than add in depreciation that is essentially flat at present, as I keep saying, the more you enjoy/willing to spend ££££ on a 'performance' combustion car the MORE an EV just makes sense.

A brand new M3 wagon costs only £3k less than a Taycan cross turismo, factor a Taycan will have a fraction the running costs of a M3, am not sure who in their mind would choose a M3 wagon over a Taycan?

EVs are the default choice already in the upper end of new car market, the lower end is much harder nut to crack but getting there.

Your flogging a dead horse 😁

 

We wouldn’t change our i3 for any ICE car, I’ve given up trying to tell people how much fun it is to drive, a Luddite is a Luddite no changing that.

[Mr Vlad]

Do you know what. There's far too much slagging off of EV particularly a tesla. At the end of the day wether a car is powered by petrol diesel or electric its down to the individual who has bought hired leased it. I love my V6 even though I know I'd be better off all round in an EV. I won't slag off an EV or its owner just as I won't slag off a petrol or diesel owner. Each power source has its merits. We are all individual and have individual needs and requirements. 

If you want to slag off anyone then do so to the @ricks who weave in and out of traffic whilst on their mobile phone. 

As it happens I really like the tesla model Y. That car would meet all my criteria as would the ipace jag but for the foreseeable my is250 is here to stay and I'm more than happy with that.

[Malc]

I do too think there is too much slagging off of the various modes of propulsion

For each incumbent the costs will vary ......  from the likes of me where to actually pop £30. 50. 60 nay £100 k into the equation is simply dopey ...  when my Ls400 V8 4ltr limo owes me a staggering £600 in capital costs .......  and about £300 a year VED too ............... why on earth would i want to deplete the world's resources by buying any sort of new car ...  my personal contribution to " greening " the planet methinks

AND someone has to keep the oil workers working and the coffers of the Arab nations well, well oiled

Reminded me of a conversation I was having a couple of years back with a junior prince and member of the Abu Dhabi royal dynasty  ..........  his dad, yes his dad, back in  the 60's  YES the 1960's had popped over to the UK to offer the Chairman of my then employer, NatWest bank, a loan to sort out the capital cash flow issues the bank had at that time .........

Comparatively and newly discovered oil wealth. you know, petrol and diesel stuff that had not long been brought to bring wealth to those nations and the Royal families being able to stop their nomad lives and to actually build palaces and the like, having gotten a tad fed-up I guess with tents and dust and that sort of regime in life ...... and camels too

So don't slag off oil and fossil fuels either  .  they too have had a tremendous benefit to the world and to all of us, our pension funds, our way of life and our abilities to be " good " for the future with " greening " ........  going forward somehow

so don't slag any of it off, it's all going better for us somehow ...........  I'm sure  

Malc

[DBIZO]

5 hours ago, Malc said:

I do too think there is too much slagging off of the various modes of propulsion

For each incumbent the costs will vary ......  from the likes of me where to actually pop £30. 50. 60 nay £100 k into the equation is simply dopey ...  when my Ls400 V8 4ltr limo owes me a staggering £600 in capital costs .......  and about £300 a year VED too ............... why on earth would i want to deplete the world's resources by buying any sort of new car ...  my personal contribution to " greening " the planet methinks

AND someone has to keep the oil workers working and the coffers of the Arab nations well, well oiled

Reminded me of a conversation I was having a couple of years back with a junior prince and member of the Abu Dhabi royal dynasty  ..........  his dad, yes his dad, back in  the 60's  YES the 1960's had popped over to the UK to offer the Chairman of my then employer, NatWest bank, a loan to sort out the capital cash flow issues the bank had at that time .........

Comparatively and newly discovered oil wealth. you know, petrol and diesel stuff that had not long been brought to bring wealth to those nations and the Royal families being able to stop their nomad lives and to actually build palaces and the like, having gotten a tad fed-up I guess with tents and dust and that sort of regime in life ...... and camels too

So don't slag off oil and fossil fuels either  .  they too have had a tremendous benefit to the world and to all of us, our pension funds, our way of life and our abilities to be " good " for the future with " greening " ........  going forward somehow

so don't slag any of it off, it's all going better for us somehow ...........  I'm sure  

Malc

You hit on an key point: not buying a new car is the next best thing to not driving at all. Buying an EV to replace a still working ICE car will never make the carbon balance work.

[Phil xxkr]

7 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

Your flogging a dead horse 😁

 

We wouldn’t change our i3 for any ICE car, I’ve given up trying to tell people how much fun it is to drive, a Luddite is a Luddite no changing that.

"A Luddite is a Luddite no changing that" Now there's an ironic statement 🙂. I regret the demise of Christianity in this country. In its place we now have fervent zealots worshipping on the altar of the weather changing being entirely down to anthropogenic activity. And just like Christianity, before demise it morphs into different sects each with their own version of truths and facts and ideas And now we have EV evangelism pitted against the ancient Gods of Greece and Rome and we all know how that ended. I suspect that most people on this forum in actuarial speak are at the "fag-end" of their life. So what possible difference can you or it make? To precis Malc, contentment in life comes from wanting what you already have and not by getting what you want. Here endeth the Monday sermon😎

[Malc]

3 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

To precis Malc, contentment in life comes from wanting what you already have and not by getting what you want. Here endeth the Monday sermon😎

not bad eh !   

Malc 

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

To precis Malc, contentment in life comes from wanting what you already have and not by getting what you want. Here endeth the Monday sermon😎

The problem Phil is that human psychology dictates that one always wants what one does not have?

[ganzoom]

@toffee_pie

We have to agree to disagree, as others have mentioned plenty of places give you reliable information on EV range in all kinds of conditions. But if you MUST have an EV with a range of 400 miles, in winter at Autobahn speeds whilst towing a trailer up hill, than you will be waiting forever.

https://ev-database.org

 

For most 'normal' families though current range of EVs offer cheaper fuel and running costs with pretty much zero inconvenience, but we are going round in circles, and depending on your views one (or both of us) are in danger of following through on this Nordic fairy tale :).

 

[First_Lexus]

11 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The problem Phil is that human psychology dictates that one always wants what one does not have?

I don’t want an EV…😁

[toffee_pie]

Petrol to drop, hold your horses...

On the other hand we have a recession looming it seems

Petrol prices drop as recession fears squash commodities rally

Petrol prices drop from record high, says AA
By Noor Nanji
Business reporter, BBC News

Going back to this...

My company have the scheme on line and you can book cars etc - and see prices

This e-208 is around £350 per month, that is with a £100 odd reduction in VAT. I will pass

Its not just this, its every single car - I cant quite work the math out as 

1. You wont own the car

2. You can buy a petrol car to keep and it will be far cheaper

The e-208 will cost over £8k over 2 years at which point you will have to hand it back or do something else to get to work - but you will have saved <xxx> greenhous gas emisssions - said emissions I would hazard a guess are no better or worse than modern petrol car you get nowadays, the era of 286g/km days are long gone (my Subaru) - when you factor everything there wouldnt be a huge difference between them emission wise - remember EVs have fossil fuels for manufacturing and charging up. Its not like they are plucked from a tree, plus petrol cars will generally last longer

£8k would get many a good used petrol car yours to keep.

A tesla - dont know what kind, was around £500 per month - so over two years that will set you back £12k - prime money for a used Lexus LS600hL which you can keep also with manufacturing quality that Tesla couldnt dream of, and you get a V8 for good measure.

I know which one I would go for

[Phil xxkr]

36 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

I don’t want an EV…😁

Not so Ed. Yes it's true when you allow other people to affect and ultimately control your emotions. When you, and you alone charge it's pretty liberating 👍

[Phil xxkr]

3 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Not so Ed. Yes it's true when you allow other people to affect and ultimately control your emotions. When you, and you alone charge it's pretty liberating 👍

Apologies Ed, should have gone to Bernard 😱

[Phil xxkr]

58 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The problem Phil is that human psychology dictates that one always wants what one does not have?

Oops! Sent my response to Ed in error 🙁

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

@toffee_pie

We have to agree to disagree, as others have mentioned plenty of places give you reliable information on EV range in all kinds of conditions. But if you MUST have an EV with a range of 400 miles, in winter at Autobahn speeds whilst towing a trailer up hill, than you will be waiting forever.

https://ev-database.org

 

For most 'normal' families though current range of EVs offer cheaper fuel and running costs with pretty much zero inconvenience, but we are going round in circles, and depending on your views one (or both of us) are in danger of following through on this Nordic fairy tale :).

 

A Tesla costs about 50 - 60K or more - they do not have a good reputation either for build quality or such but that beside the point, how much money are you actually saving at the end of a year or 2? you could buy a used Porsche 911 which would destroy it for a performance car for cheaper and that is hardly as worse for economy as my Subaru.

My example above is that a leased out Tesla over 2 years is over £12k, you could buy dozens of more interesting cars for that money and after two years you can keep it you wont need to borrow more money to go to work and get about.

The question is what is the damage to the climate over those two years - not much is my guestimate based on the fact the combustion engine cars attribute to circa 10% of global greenhouse gases themselves - and no this is not from my tin foil hat, the UK contribution is < 1% - we are not told these figure from governments but hey ho

Internal combustion (IC) engines operating on fossil fuel oil provide about 25% of the world’s power and in doing so, they produce about 10% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions

 

[wharfhouse]

The issue is that by government(s) MANDATING what we can buy new (so zero emissions) this has allowed the car manufacturers to take the opportunity to reset the price point (and their profitability) of a "normal" car - I don't expect any EV to ever come down to the price of the equivalent ICE anymore. We will all simply end up paying a lot more for the pleasure of driving an EV... 

[toffee_pie]

There is zero financial incentive for me to get an EV - but like you said and I previously mentioned governments very kindly put us in this situation

And the above post confirms my suspicion that governments and auto manufacturers have mega money agreements between them to make this happen, decommissioning of combustion engine cars around since the 1800s doesn’t happen without planning – and $$$$$, nobody is asking questions however.