Fuel panic!

[Boxbrownie]

46 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Your battery range will plummet , and when you charge your car in the winter you better have a nice cozy house as it will take hours.. you cannot fast charge in winter, you are too dumb to know anything.

So, about your i3, how's the 100 state of charge nowadays?

Of course you can fast charge in winter, it done every day by tens of thousands of EV drivers on the motorways and rapid charge EVSEs, there is no difference in charge times in winter as the Battery is already warm from being driven a few miles, that’s how much you know about EVs.

Again you speak absolute tosh.

[Boxbrownie]

As to winter range, yes it does reduce in winter. Mine has been running on average 130 miles Summer, 110 Winter, and that’s with everything running, lights, wipers, air con heating etc.

[toffee_pie]

15 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Of course you can fast charge in winter

you cant,  leave the discussuuon to people who actually know what they are talking about, not some idiot who says their BMW i3 still has 100% capacity after several years

Do you work for a Government agency?

Under fast charging conditions, however, lithium plates on the graphite particles, causing a loss of capacity and introducing a significant safety hazard

Lithium Ion: Li-ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and no charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode. During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold. The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably. This also affects discharge performance noticeably with Li-ion.

Many Battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode during a sub-freezing charge that leads to a permanent degradation in performance and safety. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing.

[Boxbrownie]

Just now, toffee_pie said:

you cant,  leave the discussuuon to people who actually know what they are talking about, not some idiot who says their BMW i3 still has 100% capacity after several years

Do you work for a Government agency?

Lithium Ion: Li-ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and no charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode. During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold. The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably. This also affects discharge performance noticeably with Li-ion.

Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode during a sub-freezing charge that leads to a permanent degradation in performance and safety. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing.

You cannot read either can you?

I have already said many times my i3 capacity is 94%…..sorry….I mean 94%

As to charging in cold temperatures as I stated before the batteries are already warm/hot when being rapid charged, it literally take a few miles to get them to temperature and most EVs like mine conditions the batteries by using the heating/cooling system to keep the pack at optimum temperature. 
The batteries in EVs are NOT consumer grade, they are a specialised compound designed specifically for its usage, you can’t buy them in B&Q.

 

I am beginning to believe you actually are just a wind up merchant with a well battered keyboard.

Thank heaven for the ignore button, bye.

[toffee_pie]

23 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Of course you can fast charge in winter, it done every day by tens of thousands of EV drivers on the motorways and rapid charge EVSEs, there is no difference in charge times in winter as the battery is already warm from being driven a few miles, that’s how much you know about EVs.

Again you speak absolute tosh.

You are the fool on here, you cant fast charge batteries in winter

top tip

Study Electronic Engineering and batteries, visit some Battery plants, talk to experts. Thats what I have done

Charge current is reduced in cold weather, automatically by your charger, its just that owners, ie dumb people like you dont know what is going on in the background and your vehicle manufacturer doesnt want to burn your house and car down.

2 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Thank heaven for the ignore button, bye.

 

 

[toffee_pie]

3 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

The batteries in EVs are NOT consumer grade, they are a specialised compound designed specifically for its usage, you can’t buy them in B&Q.

I know, because I worked with them - if you read my previous posts I said I developed commercial products with lithium batteries, down to and including getting products compliant with regulatory bodies, which I can assure you is not fun. I have visited Battery plants all over Asia and S.Korea who manufactured Tier 1 and 2 batteries. I doubt you could understand a datasheet for a lithium Battery, if you can somehow understand one you will see you wont get full charge at 0C, it will be around ambient temperature where you get full charge capacity, are temperatute drops so will your full capacity - charge current is reduced accordingly.

 

 

[ColinBarber]

41 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

you cant,  leave the discussuuon to people who actually know what they are talking about, not some idiot who says their BMW i3 still has 100% capacity after several years

What's your definition of cold? -14 deg C is pretty cold in my mind, and this car is able to charge at 175 kW.

 

[Phil xxkr]

13 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

What's your definition of cold? -14 deg C is pretty cold in my mind, and this car able to charge at 175 kW.

 

I understand tesla is a hugely successful brand in Canada even in winter 🍁

[ganzoom]

43 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Thank heaven for the ignore button, bye.

There is an ignore button!!

 

[toffee_pie]

34 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

What's your definition of cold?

Battery maufacturers refer to 'cold' as around 0C, as per my previous post once temp drops below the ambient the capacity of the Battery is gradually reduced, you get around 80% full charge capacity at 0C and charge current is dropped accordigly as charging at elevated currents at freezing condition is asking for trouble.

I worked with commercial lithium cells from Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, LG and several Tier II suppliers in China like BAK, DLG and Molicel - so certainly not stuff from B&Q.

I dont be sticking my nose into forums on the interweb about the effects of drugs on your central nervus system as I dont know anything about it. You get folks here and on other forums frantically googling all the information on EVs and batteries trying to prove a point when in most cases they havent a clue what they are talking about. Which is fine but I think people should do more research on EVs as it seems eveyone is spaced out on how good they are from Governments who are only telling us the good bits, ignoring the fact that around 22 billion lithium batteries will be needing mining from 2030 and 2035 if predicted growth of 30mn cars a year holds firm. Devestating for the environment, but they are not telling you this - nor the fact that fossil fuels charge up most EVs anyway, and assemble them. Governments want people to get EVs as they can control sheep easier.

[toffee_pie]

36 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

What's your definition of cold? -14 deg C is pretty cold in my mind, and this car is able to charge at 175 kW.

 

£120k of a car here, how many people will have access to this tech? and good luck getting it repaired - sounds fun

Compare the fast charge current at freezing temperatures and at 26C - if you do find a video you will see the difference

[dutchie01]

8 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Governments want people to get EVs as they can control sheep easier.

Eric, do you really believe there is an international secret agreement between governments that is driving the push for EVs?  Any proof of what and how? i am seriously interested in why you think that?

[toffee_pie]

27 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I understand tesla is a hugely successful brand in Canada even in winter 🍁

Tesla is a successful brand all over North America,  marketing its called.

[toffee_pie]

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Eric, do you really believe there is an international secret agreement between governments that is driving the push for EVs?  Any proof of what and how? i am seriously interested in why you think that?

Anything driven by Government’s never has ordinary people in mind, and when Boris said 2030 as the date to ban combustion cars its aligning with the UNECE 2030 sustainability agenda. Which is not pretty reading, world leaders attended a meeting in NY to dish out all this in 2019 and lo and behold we have covid and electric cars all on top of us now. Key drivers for the 2030 agenda.

They lied about diesel, they lied about covid. And they are certainly lying about the environment and coercing people to get electric cars and I am pretty sure that governments of the leading nations have billion dollar agreeements with auto manufacturers to roll out these EVs that everyone is forced to get.

[dutchie01]

So, the various governments are financing the EV transition by paying the automotive industry?

[Mr Vlad]

There's been talk over the past number of decades about the thing called Big Brother. There's been Sci Fi films where robots rule over humans. There's this electronic GIANT who is on almost everybody's mobile phone that sends you time lines where you were last month. The future EV vehicle will be able to drive itself so basically the occupant is a prisoner in that vehicle. Am I scare mongering? No. What I've just typed is unfortunately true. Hail technology NOT. One thing else. I can put petrol in my car when it's cold enough to freeze the nuts of a brass monkey at the same rate as when it's so hot that the tar onbthe road melts. Yippeeee for petrol 👍😊🍻

[Phil xxkr]

3 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Tesla is a successful brand all over North America,  marketing its called.

No, it's actually called sales 😉

[Malc]

15 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Wouldn't surprise me if LS400/430s outlived EVs. 

I doubt a single brilliant EV   ..  hehehehehe......... will last some 27 years and 238k miles eh   .... like mine

Maybe the " new " Mercedes with a range purported to be 600 miles might BUT it will sure have to regain it's older and some might say better build quality ............  and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon methinks

Malc

brrrrmmm brrrmmmm V8 forever 

[Boxbrownie]

15 hours ago, ganzoom said:

There is an ignore button!!

 

Yes, just hold your mouse cursor over his name and it'll give the you option, pity there isn't an "educate" option 🤣

[wharfhouse]

The issue in my mind is that manufacturers are guaranteeing something in the region of 70% of original Battery range after around 100K miles / 10 years. Now I appreciate that may be low-balled so that they always get to that but an ICE wouldn't lose anything like that amount of range from what it left the factory with. Given the inflated quoted BEV ranges from new that means after some 100k miles / 10 years one could be looking at something like 50% of the quoted range when new - so instead of e.g. quoted range of 400 miles one could be seeing only 200 miles. Now, if batteries could be exchanged or even refurbished for e.g. £1,000 to get the lost range back that wouldn't be too bad but as that car will be long since out of production what's the guarantee that will be possible? I've run ICE cars past 200K miles with little loss of power or range for a tank of petrol. My current IS 300h at 114K miles has lost nothing to note of it's range or performance but it's only a small and under stressed Battery - but even that would be some £3K to get replaced if ever required although the rest of the car would likely be able to achieve 200K+ miles easily. 

So, one currently has a car carrying a premium of some 50% over what the equivalent ICE or even hybrid with no real benefit (to the owner) that I can see. Second hand buyers a number of years down the line (or even the first owner if they want to keep it long term) will be getting a significantly inferior product. 

Anyway that's my view at the moment and I appreciate others hold different views and so only time will tell how it all plays out. 

 

[dutchie01]

Sounds like a real possibility for the " Battery Refurb Industry ". This will be big volume business and there are already some small specialized shops refurbing/repairing mainly Tesla batteries. If i were Kwikfit i would buy some of those and roll out their knowledge over the branches.

[wharfhouse]

8 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Sounds like a real possibility for the " Battery Refurb Industry ". This will be big volume business and there are already some small specialized shops refurbing/repairing mainly Tesla batteries. If i were Kwikfit i would buy some of those and roll out their knowledge over the branches.

Agreed and I think when some sort of mass Battery refub industry emerges and proves that it can indeed get back the majority of the factory claimed life of a Battery pack for a significant (i.e. numerous years) length of time then the secondhand market (for cars around a decade old) will be well served and have confidence in the technology. My need something similar for the inverters and electric motors (not sure what the normal life of those is) but the rest of  the car (given it has less components that an ICE) could last a few decades / 200K - 300K miles.

[Mr Vlad]

I'm wondering if anyone has heard of the Chinese car company NIRO. What they're doing in the Netherlands is what should be happening with ALL ev car manufacturers. What's so good about Niro? They never need charging. What they do is go to a local Battery storage recharge station, reverse in but its done autonomously. Few mins later a new fully charged Battery is bolted to the bottom of the car. Fantastic idea. I've mentioned this before. 

[toffee_pie]

4 hours ago, Malc said:

I doubt a single brilliant EV   ..  hehehehehe......... will last some 27 years and 238k miles eh   .... like mine

Maybe the " new " Mercedes with a range purported to be 600 miles might BUT it will sure have to regain it's older and some might say better build quality ............  and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon methinks

Malc

brrrrmmm brrrmmmm V8 forever 

That laughable Mercedes above was a prime example of the future that awaits us, that thing will not last three years before borking up and when it does Mercedes will probably be unable to repair it. You can keep the dash board for your Christmas tree.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/s****y-ev-likely-break-banger/

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Sounds like a real possibility for the " Battery Refurb Industry ". This will be big volume business and there are already some small specialized shops refurbing/repairing mainly Tesla batteries. If i were Kwikfit i would buy some of those and roll out their knowledge over the branches.

That's well and good but going back to my previous comment, lithium cells like NCA chemistry widely used degrade fastest at around 70-80 percent SoC, so once they reach that capacity it's all downhill and you are not able to reclaim the energy lost, not much use unless you fancy buying used cells at the end of their usable life. Measure the internal resistance of these used batteries, it will have increased considerably..that's your indicator that it's degraded.

Kwik fit don't have the expertise or knowledge to deal with batteries, it's not a simple task or getting some AA batteries and whacking them on a charger.