Fuel panic!

[First_Lexus]

37 minutes ago, dublet said:

Pro EU liberal reporting.

I've got about 80 miles of range left, and local petrol stations are all either out or have huge queues. Managed to get entangled in a traffic dead lock due to everyone forgetting the rules of the road. Hopefully it'll pass, I've got about 7 weeks worth of petrol to get to Waitrose and back.

There are two ways of looking at the union of Europe. One is a purely economic thing, the other is a more philosophical union to prevent future wars. It started out post WW2 as the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) - "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". This combined the two trains of thought. Since that time it's grown into something more political, and included economies far more disparate in their GDP per capita. But the pillars under the EU of free movement of goods, money and people are meant as a leveller. In the USA, you never hear people talk about cheap labour from the poorer states, phrasing this as exploitation.

Now, we can talk all day and night and the pros and cons of being inside a single market and a political union, both ideological and practical but that's not really what's at play here.

Exiting a union such as the EU has a lot of implications, moreover as it's not just political but also comes with a lot of other unions such as EURATOM, the Internal Energy Market, etc, etc. Current leadership has decided to sever all such ties, and seemingly without much of a plan as to how to manage such a transition, aside from somehow believing hard enough.

This very much unmanaged transition is causing a lot of spikes in a lot of systems that are "Just In Time", and we are finding there is not enough stretch in these systems to absorb that. Hence there are gaps in some super markets, for instance my local super market hasn't had a full range of cat food since the beginning of the year. Irrespective of whether there was too much choice, or whether it's particularly crucial, it's simply an indicator that things are not running as smoothly as they were.

You will be seeing a lot more of these spikes of demand/supply as things are currently already being prioritised, and some very practical people are having to make hard choices about who gets what goods, and how.

It's somewhat amusing to think people are blaming the media for pushing a narrative here, as if various media haven't pushed past narratives about the EU being at fault for everything. I think it's more that a lot of people simply don't have faith in the government to ensure stability any more. The modern world is very complicated, it's not going to stop being complicated.

In the mean while, we'll go from crisis to crisis, probably for at least another 10 years or so.

 

Yes, it’s certainly not a simple debate. I spent my university education studying European politics and my opinions changed in both directions for a few years. For the past decade I worked directly with the EU and my opinions changed again.

From a philosophical perspective I was - and probably still am - a European Federalist, but that’s not to say that I’m in favour of the current EU construct.

The view that it was created to prevent further wars is partially true, if slightly simplistic, but in the aim of bringing the peoples of Europe together it was broadly successful until about 2005. Since then, it has all rather gone awry as it has begun to implement political aspirations rather than focussing on the economic prosperity of the whole of the continent. 

I suppose the real question here is whether any of this is caused by the UK exit from the EU. It’s certainly a contributory factor, but not the main cause imho. Poor wages and poor conditions in the industry have meant that many drivers have simply left or retired, and a lack of HGV testing during the pandemic means replacing those drivers - along with the c20,000 EU drivers who left - hasn’t happened. However, as I said in an earlier post, the supply chain can cope as long as people don’t panic. In terms of the reactions in this country, I think the most appropriate phrase is ‘chance would be a fine thing!’

[H3XME]

It's really bad around west Birmingham area. I didn't personally have much of an issue.. Tesco was dry, but managed to get some V-Power so not complaining. 

[dublet]

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

I suppose the real question here is whether any of this is caused by the UK exit from the EU. It’s certainly a contributory factor, but not the main cause imho.

That's the thing. Nothing will be purely due to leaving the EU alone, yet it will be a contributing factor. Other countries are struggling with HGV drivers too, yet none are in the same predicament as the UK.

I agree with most of your other points, yet the fact that the UK put itself into a position where it has stretched its supply chains so thinly, that it cannot cope with the many crises seems apparent.

As to expecting rational behaviour of people, to quote the famous philosopher Gino D'Acampo, "if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle".

[Malc]

3 hours ago, dublet said:

a full range of cat food

Aha .......  in olden times, when I was a lad ............  the whole range of cat food was simply leftovers from the table plus the rare visit to the fishmongers for a " treat " for the cat  ....... THEN, I remember it clearly .....  tins of Kit-E-Kat were sold  ..........  a blue tin if I remember

NOW let's just put all this nonsense into perspective .....  it's people's ridiculous aspirations for more and more and more of everything ...  and sadly our cats aspirations too ..  gourmet this, gourmet that .......  noses turned up at the " wrong " variety etc etc

Greater liaison with the fisheries of Norway and Iceland methinks to ensure our pussies are well nourished .......... sprats and mackerel and whatever is in season...... 

likewise with petrol ...  to only go where enough petrol / fuel that's available will take you .........  Mr Spock please take note .....  Common / Uncommon Market / ECSC / EC or whatever it might have been called 

We're where we are and just accept it all please

HGV drivers do please return to the UK on £50k a year and leave your own countries in the lurch ......... ( likewise your Nurses and Doctors too no doubt )  you know it all makes sense ......  all our pussies NEED all those aspirational gourmet foodstuffs ......  life's just got too complicated methinks 

Drop us back 40 years and all might be well in the world of consumerism etc .......  too many HGV drivers and redundancy could loom and all that pain

Malc

[dublet]

Malcom, it's merely an example of overly stretched supply lines. It's easy to dismiss the concern of cat food, which you are doing, and thereby not engaging in the actual goal of discussing why the UK is doing so poorly in this transition.

I'd also like to remind you that 40 years ago was the 80s, with Thatcherism, and rampant consumerism. The Troubles were also going on, so you know.

A choice quote from the Dutch truck drivers union: "European truck drivers are not going to come and help you get out of the 💩 you created for yourselves".

Many Britons forget how much other Europeans have had goodwill towards the UK. This is running out.

[Mincey]

1 hour ago, dublet said:

As to expecting rational behaviour of people, to quote the famous philosopher Gino D'Acampo, "if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle".

A truly odious little man. If more people knew that he once burgled Paul "Wherever I Lay My Hat" Young's home, he would be rightly driven off TV and into obscurity.

[Las Palmas]

Politicians all over the world do what is best for: politicians; well not all politicians, mostly only for themselves.

Some are smart enough to get voters to stick with their plans and some are not.

Bad Brexit is good for nobody in the long run. Good Brexit is maybe not existing. Buying from the UK on eBay has certainly been more complicated, not that the seller will not sell, but getting the items is not taking months instead of a week or so.

Here we have all the fuel we can afford to pay for and if we want to pay full price 1.23€ it is straight to the pump, if we want to buy cheap .99€ we have to wait till the 5 - 10 - 20 cars ahead have filled their tanks.

Wonder what will happen with the Irish. The punky haired ex-mayor has promised quite a lot more than he can deliver. Maybe he will need another job next time.

No politicians do anything good for anybody if not at the same time helping themselves. UK never did anything good for any other country but the UK. Stealing riches from Africa, Egypt, India has never been because they wanted to help. Believing such is stupid:

19 minutes ago, dublet said:

Many Britons forget how much other Europeans have had goodwill towards the UK. This is running out.

 

[D Johnson]

I love the way it’s presented as “kind people from Eastern Europe come here to help us out born of a sense of altruism and good will and this is all the thanks they get!”.  

Reality check: they come to improve their lives either to send wages back home or to enjoy an improved standard of living in a first world country.  

Maybe I need to get out more, but regarding the Dutch drivers, in 16 years of truck driving, I have yet to meet a single Dutch trucker who is working for a British company.  They are on our roads but they are driving Dutch and other European vehicles.  Some people in the EU feel slighted because we voted to leave and they look forward to us getting our comeuppance.  Fair enough - if they are that petty we probably made the right decision.  

This is not really about Brexit though, much as the remainers may want it to be.  Years of relying on cheap foreign labour, horrendous working conditions, excessive and increasingly intrusive micromanagement and surveillance of every corner of our working day, under investment in training together with a failure to read the writing on the wall (average of UK truck driver = 55) by the industry and government and last but not least the hammer blows of the new IR35 regs (brought in at the start of this tax year) and Covid mayhem and the chickens are coming home to roost!

I predict the “shortage” of fuel tanker drivers will be of very short duration since this is where the real money is for Agency drivers and the market will work its magic leaving other sectors struggling in its wake.  

[Thackeray]

7 hours ago, Mossypossy said:

Switzerland is a microcosm of that. Fabulously wealthy few, loads of people on breadline, and a huge workforce who schlepp over the border everyday from poorer countries.

Poorer countries? You mean Germany and France? Or perhaps Austria!

Oh, I know, you must be talking about Italy!

[First_Lexus]

 

44 minutes ago, dublet said:

choice quote from the Dutch truck drivers union: "European truck drivers are not going to come and help you get out of the 💩 you created for yourselves".

^^ For those that may be interested, the a fuller version of his quote is below - without the headline grabbing clickbait!

“Pay is an important area, but it’s not the only area,” he said, adding the industry across Europe had been “sick” long before Covid and Brexit, with companies viewing drivers “as simply an extension of the vehicle”.

The industry was “plagued by exploitation, by irresponsible multinationals who dragged down prices, which ended with drivers voting with their feet, simply leaving the industry”, he said.

Regulation was “not even worth the paper it’s written on, because there is no enforcement, and no interest to enforce it down the supply chain”, Atema added.

He said: “It’s not like you can offer a visa, offer a good payment, and the issue will be solved. There is a whole range of issues behind [it]. Even the use of toilet facilities in the UK, and of course the rest of Europe, is an issue.”

[Thackeray]

6 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Champagne already in short supply as there is not enough glass to produce bottles so be the first in the queue

I know what you mean. Panic buying of champagne? There's nothing worse!

[Las Palmas]

58 minutes ago, Thackeray said:

Poorer countries? You mean Germany and France? Or perhaps Austria!

Oh, I know, you must be talking about Italy!

Italy is one country so it cannot be poorer countries.

[Malc]

Gentlemen, Dublet and John too 

Politics and Brexit should have no significant place on this Car Forum methinks ........  this is a generally friendly and happy discussion place .......  and Fuel is the main issue right now and HGV / tanker drivers seem to be in some short supply notwithstanding the UK Govt figures tell us that we are seemingly " short " of 100,000 drivers to top up the 300, 000 active we now have BUT no one, apart from the Govt, ever mentions the further fully qualified  300,000 HGV drivers in the UK that have decided not to be active ......  this is surely the prime conundrum to be overcome methinks 

dismiss the following too if you wish .......

The Troubles are sometimes on my mind, not least when I had a glorious month touring the island of Ireland back in September 2018 ......... 4/5000 miles mostly glorious, well in the Eire bit of it .... couldn't understand the ungraciousness toward me, an Englishman with a English regd Ls400 in NI .....  certainly felt very very uncomfortable especially visiting Londonderry and the Troubles graffiti and the fearmongering appearance towards life and me ... t'was a little scary to say the least .......  one night only in NI was enough to scare the pants off me .......

So enuf of the Troubles ...  I'm sure they ain't over yet coz youth never seems to learn much of the good stuff from life's experiences of their elders sadly .............. 

13 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Many Britons forget how much other Europeans have had goodwill towards the UK. This is running out.

and vice versa methinks too .....  that's probably one of the main reasons the British public voted of their own freewill to EXIT ......  whatever the outcomes in store ................

 

BUT fuel is the issue of the day and let's hope and pray the " fuel storers " amongst the car using public don't go up in heaps of noxious inflammatory cloud anytime soon  .......  by the way, reading just now that much of the Q'ing at the pumps is caused by people, so unused to filling their cars, putting in diesel instead of petrol and vice versa .....

Cest le vie  ...........  bring on the champagne, prosecco, oh, and sparkling English wines too I say

Malc

[Las Palmas]

I did absolutely not say that, Malcolm.

I said those believing that are not extremely clever.

And you are right, we should talk about our cars and the pleasures and sometimes problems we have with these.

Looking at TV and seeing people fighting to get fuel is something that is not pleasant. Those having electric cars can now be happy. And us living where fuel is plenty and only having volcans on neighbouring island to worry about can be happy.

Don't worry, be happy.

[Las Palmas]

53 minutes ago, Thackeray said:

I know what you mean. Panic buying of champagne? There's nothing worse!

Have a friend that is only drinking alcohol if served Pink Champagne. Goes well with seafood.

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

 

^^ For those that may be interested, the a fuller version of his quote is below - without the headline grabbing clickbait!

“Pay is an important area, but it’s not the only area,” he said, adding the industry across Europe had been “sick” long before Covid and Brexit, with companies viewing drivers “as simply an extension of the vehicle”.

The industry was “plagued by exploitation, by irresponsible multinationals who dragged down prices, which ended with drivers voting with their feet, simply leaving the industry”, he said.

Regulation was “not even worth the paper it’s written on, because there is no enforcement, and no interest to enforce it down the supply chain”, Atema added.

He said: “It’s not like you can offer a visa, offer a good payment, and the issue will be solved. There is a whole range of issues behind [it]. Even the use of toilet facilities in the UK, and of course the rest of Europe, is an issue.”

I heard it this morning on R4 which is why I refused to rise to dublet’s post.

 

Amusing part was at the end when the presenter apologised for his remark, well he is a truck driver 😁

[dutchie01]

The trucking market is sick, has been in a race to the bottom for years cheaper ever cheaper to the point the bubble bursts or the chain breaks. The Dutch HGV market is pretty large and international with the port of Rotterdam as big feeder. Literally tens of thousands of containers are shipped daily. 25 Years ago all was more or less regulated, drivers had a decent salary and fixed contracts and were not inspected as heavily as internet was only beginning. Over the years competition increased and the driver was seen as a cost, nothing else. Worst example is Dutch hauliers starting a company in Romania or Bulgaria, employ drivers in those companies under Romanian/Bulgarian law and let them drive in Holland for just under 3 months. They receive a Ryanair ticket and on arrival are greeted by someone with a gps and keys to the truck that is their home as well. They drive for 300 Euro a month, no questions asked....  I am not surprised there is a shortage of lorry drivers, not at all.

[ALAW]

14 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

I am not too optimistic. There is a huge unbalance between supply and demand with lock downs, postponed factory maintenance leading to force majeures and almost overheating economies in the western world. I am afraid we could be in this roller coaster for another 12 to 18 months.

Better get your Christmas drinks now it could well be impossible in December! 

Yup i agree i was only saying to my good lady wife we will not be out of this covid for around 5 years to get back to something like normal. Force Majeure wrote into nearly all contracts now.

[ALAW]

16 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Rioja is with me old pal !

Sunday Times had that story almost one month ago.

Stanlow  is just down the road from me.

Ive worked there a few times John i think it was the Hoole road in Chester i used to stay.

[ALAW]

14 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Mr Benn was a wise man but i guess it is inevitable. Economic immigration has always been there and will always remain. For instance if you have a Polish truck driver in the UK who drives the trucks in Poland? Simple answer is an Ukrainian driver as he gets paid more than in the Ukraine. And so on.

And regarding the role of the press i am convinced if all reporting was 100% factual the same would happen. It is in mans nature we move in groups never alone. If some start to overbuy toilet paper most of us start to do the same without even knowing why. Same with filling up your tank everybody does it because everybody does it.

Telling you all now for the third time, get your wine before it is sold out! Champagne already in short supply as there is not enough glass to produce bottles so be the first in the queue. ( it will happen).

I was going to say we have some fabulous English sparkling wine now Camel Valley and Nyetimber my favorites. Reckon they could be hit by glass shortage then.

[ALAW]

17 hours ago, Brian R said:

Just read the story as if it were a current debt and not a paid one. I suppose yet again the main stream media misreporting and hell-bent on making a bad situation worse. The prime culprit is "The Guardian" and as ever I'll choose to be circumspect of anything that rag prints. In practice, it seems a VAT payment is due but what's the betting it will be deferred to a later date, just give me one nanosecond to think about it. Still doesn't stop the "press" from sensationalising the non story.

Exactly

[royoftherovers]

8 hours ago, ALAW said:

Ive worked there a few times John i think it was the Hoole road in Chester i used to stay.

Yes Brent. That road goes straight down to Shell Stanlow. I know it well.

[PCM]

Drove past 6 petrol stations this morning ( on the way to Morrisons ). All closed.

[jumbojake]

managed to get some diesel for my IS200d today .. taken 4days to find some ... 8 petrol stations in my town, only one has fuel at any time, so have to be lucky before they run out .. absolute disgrace and the government / BBC continue to blame the public...   people have not started consuming more fuel, clearly the delivery infrastructure has been on the brink of failure for some time.. just took a nudge to break it, it's not as if you can buy more than you tank will take and people are not consuming more.  All the local supermarkets have some empty shelves... seems like there is no sign it will improve anytime soon 

[Spacewagon52]

1 hour ago, jumbojake said:

  people have not started consuming more fuel, 

Yes, that is true but................ the average fuel delivery is £25. I presume many people NEVER completely fill their tanks. Now they are! Once everyone's tank is full the queues will die down. But............ how long will that take?