Are we likely to see a hydrogen IS300?

[paulrnx]

I’m getting quite excited at the thought of the first Hydrogen fuel cell Lexus 😀

[dublet]

I bought my RC300h as the charging infrastructure for BEVs simply isn't there yet enough IMO, especially if you live in a house where you don't have a charger at home. Particularly if you are renting. I would have liked the powertrain to have a slightly bigger Battery and feature plug in charging, but none of the PHEVs were of interest to me.

The hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is even more haphazard, at least with BEV you can slowly charge almost anywhere, given a long enough extension lead. If you run out with a hydrogen fuel cell, you are more stuck. There's only 3 stations in the whole of Scotland, so unless you live around Aberdeen or in the Orkneys, you're stuck.

The "hydrogen economy" is potentially quite exciting but it's really hard to see how we (as in the entire country) would get to the point where it would be enough.  Toyota have been pushing more at the hydrogen door than the EV door, even though they pioneered hybrids with the Prius.

We are living in "interesting times", there are a number of transitions happening. The momentum with BEVs is there in a way that it is not with hydrogen. I hope to be surprised and see more hydrogen stations around, but even the map with the planned stations isn't particular exciting.

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

This whole range thing and the impact on remaining charge of going faster reminds me that ICE cars had similar issues.

A member of my family had a rather gorgeous MGB V8 many many years ago. We used to drive round roundabouts and corners, deserted I might add, with me regularly looking where we were going through the passenger side window. He used to drive a sports car in motorsport races in the late 50’s and 60’s and he was a very accomplished driver and way above my skillset it must be said. One day we were out and driving behind a very slow car which he wouldn’t overtake. When asked why, he explained that whilst he knew he was able to - they were quite a fast car in their day - he just wasn’t sure that he could afford to. They weren’t economic at the best of times and pushing it could elicit single digit mpg figures. It always amused me.

But herein lies the dilemma of driving any BEV nowadays. You know you can beat anyone in a game of Top Trumps and you know you can blitz most cars on the road. But you can’t because you are always conserving battery to make it to the next charging point or simply to reduce range anxiety.

Electric does not mean efficient... Tesla has nearly 1000hp motors so it's energy consumption is as well like you would expect from equivalent car, sure it is fast, but it as well consumes a lot of energy. People have this misconception that BEVs are very efficient, but not emitting tail-pipe emissions does not mean they are not consuming mind boggling amount of energy. Make no mistake - Teslas are not green, they are super cars. This is why - if you drive them fast you won't get far.

Same is true for pollution. The statistics that BEV produces 30% less Co2 than ICE car is when comparing similar cars, not when comparing 2l 200hp ICE car with 1000hp Tesla. What is true is that Electric motors are 90%+ efficient, whereas ICE motors are 30-50% efficient. So 400hp BEV will be not only faster, but as well 30% "greener" over it's lifetime compared against 200hp ICE as far as CO2 is concerned, yet 1000hp Tesla or 784hp Model X will be more polluting... Meaning one may as well be driving Lexus IS220d and they will generate less pollution than our dear friend in his Model X. 

[dublet]

The plus point of BEV is that it's easier to change power plants - we as a country just need to invest in some good nuclear plants.

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, paulrnx said:

I’m getting quite excited at the thought of the first Hydrogen fuel cell Lexus 😀

I'm beginning to suspect that you have some strong opinions on this subject Paul 🙂

 

[dutchie01]

I am confused. This morning i had an Audi Q4 etron out for a testdrive and i found it a big disappointment. Cheap interior and not Audi like buildquality at all. The silent drive combined with the torque is wonderful but you can get that in any BEV. Living in the Netherlands charging is no problem. I can charge at home and the vast majority of petrolstations have high power chargers, alike hotels offices etc. Already here 20% of all new cars sold are BEV. I asked myself how Audi can differentiate itself from VW, Skoda and Seat that have EXACTLY thesame chassis/drivetrain? This will be a challenge for all manufacturers i guess. BMW well known for their revving and singing 6 cylinders? Mercedes AMG with the big 6.3ltr 8 pots? Will this all feel thesame? How can you inject your company character/dna in an electric motor? At the moment the attention is on range and charging but what about the engine characteristics as we know with fossil cars?

I am now eying the new facelifted ES300h...  Time will tell  

[dublet]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

I asked myself how Audi can differentiate itself from VW, Skoda and Seat that have EXACTLY thesame chassis/drivetrain?

The same way an Audi A3 differentiates itself from a VW Golf, a Skoda Fabia and a Seat Ibiza. Same car, same drivetrain but different badge and marketing. Brands become more about lifestyle and historical perceived differences.

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, dublet said:

The plus point of BEV is that it's easier to change power plants - we as a country just need to invest in some good nuclear plants.

Absolutely. And leave the radioactive waste to our children.

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, paulrnx said:

I’m getting quite excited at the thought of the first Hydrogen fuel cell Lexus 😀

I would like one too. Does not even matter which brand it has as long as it is reliable. Oh, that mean it must be a Lexus then. Still too few filling stations. Be patient my friend and do not read the latest climate report from united nations.

[dublet]

23 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Absolutely. And leave the radioactive waste to our children.

Someone isn't keeping up to date.. https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-wastes/radioactive-wastes-myths-and-realities.aspx

[paulrnx]

3 hours ago, Shahpor said:

I'm beginning to suspect that you have some strong opinions on this subject Paul 🙂

 

I guess I just objected to ganzoom’s post and it got me going for a while 😀

[paulrnx]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

I am confused. This morning i had an Audi Q4 etron out for a testdrive and i found it a big disappointment. Cheap interior and not Audi like buildquality at all. The silent drive combined with the torque is wonderful but you can get that in any BEV. Living in the Netherlands charging is no problem. I can charge at home and the vast majority of petrolstations have high power chargers, alike hotels offices etc. Already here 20% of all new cars sold are BEV. I asked myself how Audi can differentiate itself from VW, Skoda and Seat that have EXACTLY thesame chassis/drivetrain? This will be a challenge for all manufacturers i guess. BMW well known for their revving and singing 6 cylinders? Mercedes AMG with the big 6.3ltr 8 pots? Will this all feel thesame? How can you inject your company character/dna in an electric motor? At the moment the attention is on range and charging but what about the engine characteristics as we know with fossil cars?

I am now eying the new facelifted ES300h...  Time will tell  

I must admit, every time I look at an ES300h I like it more and more.

[paulrnx]

36 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

I would like one too. Does not even matter which brand it has as long as it is reliable. Oh, that mean it must be a Lexus then. Still too few filling stations. Be patient my friend and do not read the latest climate report from united nations.

The new climate report is disturbing but BEVs in Europe won’t make a blind bit of difference to that. We may well need to start putting some money into coping with global warming too.

[dublet]

6 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

The new climate report is disturbing but BEVs in Europe won’t make a blind bit of difference to that. We may well need to start putting some money into coping with global warming too.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

Limiting fossil fuel usage would cripple a lot of those big polluters, but not buying stuff from China will make the biggest difference.

[Las Palmas]

23 minutes ago, dublet said:

Someone isn't keeping up to date.. https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/nuclear-wastes/radioactive-wastes-myths-and-realities.aspx

Someone seems to believe the same things our stupid politicians act as if they do when being lobbied. I did not call you stupid.

The poor people in Greenland near the Thule Air Base might disagree with your positive idea of industry handling the waste products of their money-making machines.

[paulrnx]

1 minute ago, dublet said:

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change

Limiting fossil fuel usage would cripple a lot of those big polluters, but not buying stuff from China will make the biggest difference.

For a while I’ve been thinking that goods need to be manufactured in the region they are sold. It makes zero sense, from a climate change perspective to have goods criss-crossing the oceans on an unimaginable scale. Trouble is people want cheap all the time.

[dutchie01]

9 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

I must admit, every time I look at an ES300h I like it more and more.

Could well be that after Lexus most car interiors are inferior? In case of the Audi Q4 i only saw and felt hard plastics ( bottom of a coca cola bottle hard), panelgaps and even cloth seats. No leather or luxury to be seen. Very disappointing for a car of this price and it seems they have been cost cutting on the interior which normally is their USP. The digital dash was there but to me it seemed an overkill of options, functions of which most will never be used ( by me).

[dublet]

3 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Someone seems to believe the same things our stupid politicians act as if they do when being lobbied.

From an engineering and science point of view, nuclear is one of the safest and ecologically sound ways of generating vast amounts of energy, even if you include all of the high profile incidents:

Modern reactors produce very small amounts of waste. In the UK we're still stuck with the 1950s designs because people are irrationally scared of radiation.

[ColinBarber]

6 hours ago, Linas.P said:

So 400hp BEV will be not only faster, but as well 30% "greener" over it's lifetime compared against 200hp ICE as far as CO2 is concerned, yet 1000hp Tesla or 784hp Model X will be more polluting

It's very much down to how it is driven though with an EV. If you aren't using the extra power, you aren't polluting more which is different to an ICE.

An ICE has to overcome additional weight, friction and pumping losses associated with a larger displacement which means my 5.0 l V8 cannot achieve the same economy as a 2.0 l Inline 4 performing the same test, in the same body, if speed and acceleration are identical - even though they are both outputting the same amount of power to the wheels.

This isn't the same for an electric motor so you end up in the situation where a 1,000 bhp Tesla with a larger heavier body is as efficient as a 200 bhp Nissan Leaf when both performing the same test.

 

[DBIZO]

39 minutes ago, dublet said:

From an engineering and science point of view, nuclear is one of the safest and ecologically sound ways of generating vast amounts of energy, even if you include all of the high profile incidents:

Modern reactors produce very small amounts of waste. In the UK we're still stuck with the 1950s designs because people are irrationally scared of radiation.

The tragic thing is that the world has missed to develop inherently safe nuclear technologies such as molten salt, for lack of energy policy support. We wasted decades and hundreds of billions (!) on unreliable and ineffective power generation, getting us nowhere. Now it looks like even if we wanted to, we don't have the time anymore to make nuclear readily available in time to slow down climate change in the next 20 years to prevent extreme weather, but then again, longer term it may still be a sound investment.

[dublet]

Climate engineering is very possible. We have the technology to do quite a lot of immense stuff on a global scale.

The real problems are the fact anything to create meaningful change is expensive and people keep electing complete Alan Partridges to the highest offices.

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, paulrnx said:

I guess I just objected to ganzoom’s post and it got me going for a while 😀

Here is some more stuff for you to get worked about for no reason.....

Shame you to find the idea BEVs work so well in the real world so difficult to accept, yet belive hydrogen is the future with zero real world proof it will ever work.

I saw dozens of EVs today around Loch Lomond, EQC/eTron/iPaces, can you guess how many hydrogen fuel cell cars I've seen today🤣.

If Lexus wants to keep on selling 'premium' new cars they better get the BEV version of the RX out ASAP!

[Linas.P]

36 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It's very much down to how it is driven though with an EV. If you aren't using the extra power, you aren't polluting more which is different to an ICE.

An ICE has to overcome additional weight, friction and pumping losses associated with a larger displacement which means my 5.0 l V8 cannot achieve the same economy as a 2.0 l Inline 4 performing the same test, in the same body, if speed and acceleration are identical - even though they are both outputting the same amount of power to the wheels.

This isn't the same for an electric motor so you end up in the situation where a 1,000 bhp Tesla with a larger heavier body is as efficient as a 200 bhp Nissan Leaf when both performing the same test.

Yes, I agree with that - my comment was rather following-up of idea of big and powerful V8, but where the owner is not sure if he could afford to use that power. 

You right - there is benefit of EV which I have not mentioned, in that it scales better than ICE and it could be 90%+ efficient at low load of 200hp, at medium load of 500hp or at maximum load of 1000hp, whereas ICE has some inherent losses and it is only efficient in certain load scenario.

Going back to the original post I responded to however, I was making comparison how BEVs owners "cannot afford to drive them hard", because inherently that crazy power doesn't come out of nowhere (say 2.5s to 0-60 acceleration), it still comes from very powerfully and power hungry motor, resulting in same overall feeling - "I have a power, but I can't afford to use it".

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Here is some more stuff for you to object too....shame you to find the idea BEVs work so well in the real world difficult to accept, yet belive hydrogen is the future. 

I saw dozens of EVs today around Loch Lomond, can you guess how many hydrogen fuel cell cars I've seen today🤣

It will be interesting to see how long you going to be able to ignore the point...

I am sure you understand it, but instead you create your own narrative which you then pretend to defeat, without ever addressing the actual topic (strawman). Almost every point and sentence you make are archetypical logical fallacies... to the point that if we look at the list of recognised fallacies your comment would match description of every second of them if not more. At which point I am certain you are trolling... 

 

[paulrnx]

13 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Here is some more stuff for you to get worked about for no reason.....

Shame you to find the idea BEVs work so well in the real world so difficult to accept, yet belive hydrogen is the future with zero real world proof it will ever work.

I saw dozens of EVs today around Loch Lomond, EQC/eTron/iPaces, can you guess how many hydrogen fuel cell cars I've seen today🤣.

If Lexus wants to keep on selling 'premium' new cars they better get the BEV version of the RX out ASAP!

Now that is a fine post. Unfortunately not all of your posts are. There is something wrong with your rear doors though. Tesla have mounted the hinges on the wrong pillar 🤣