Are we likely to see a hydrogen IS300?

[paulrnx]

22 hours ago, ganzoom said:

And there lies the biggest issue with hydrogen, who actually have shown it works as a family car?? Even James May hasn't taken his Mirai beyond the comfort blanket of been within reach of a handful of hydrogen fuel stations- Which haven't increased in numbers at all in recent years.

Yet our 4.5 year old EV has just taken us the Highlands from the midlands with zero issues......Our EV will be half a decade old next year when I plan on doing a tour of Norway in it.

Hydrogen or Battery EVs, as far as am concerned one is snake oil been sold on a promise that is always coming but never actually here, the other, well it just works.

So has anyone driven a Mirai or intend to take ownership of a hydrogen IS if Lexus made one for sale tomorrow?

Looks like a bit of a dump where you’re staying mind.

[paulrnx]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

That's good going Mr Zoom. I presume the previous reliability issues you suffered are in the past?  A Norway road trip is on my agenda as well, it looks fantastic. 

We went to Norway in 2017. A lovely country. We’ll be going back next year, Covid permitting.

[ganzoom]

12 hours ago, DBIZO said:

To clean up hundreds of millions of vehicles, we will need other options.

All new technology is expensive and no company will produce technology that isn't financially viable.

We are lucky enough to have the disposable income to spend on new tech, the problem with hydrogen is it simply cannot compete with BEVs.

This is why I keep on coming back to reality and actions. Show me how/when a hydrogen fuel cell car will be as convenient and easy to own a my current BEV and I'll consider buying one. But even if wealthy early adopters cannot be persuaded by hydrogen technology who is actually going to buy it??

Loads of people love to talk about how great hydrogen is, but why aren't people buying the cars?? And if no one buys the cars who is going to develop them or the fueling suppprt needed??

Please if you actually believe hydrogen works, support Toyota and BUY a hydrogen fuel cell car, than go and tell everyone how good it is to get more support......just talking about something has never ever changed anything, you have to act.

 

 

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, doog442 said:

That's good going Mr Zoom. I presume the previous reliability issues you suffered are in the past?  A Norway road trip is on my agenda as well, it looks fantastic. 

I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable, but the need for repair work has reduced quite considerably in the last 12 months.

More importantly the car is working perfectly as a total replacement for my old BMW 335i for road trips.

I love all kinds of 'new' tech but the fact our car was ordered in 2016 shows how mature EV tech is already.......When will we be able to do a 1000mile+ Scotland road ntrip in a hydrogen powered Lexus?? 

 

[paulrnx]

9 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable, but the need for repair work has reduced quite considerably in the last 12 months.

More importantly the car is working perfectly as a total replacement for my old BMW 335i for road trips.

I love all kinds of 'new' tech but the fact our car was ordered in 2016 shows how mature EV tech is already.......When will we be able to do a 1000mile+ Scotland road ntrip in a hydrogen powered Lexus?? 

 

Beautiful photos! Well, apart from the ones where the Tesla keeps making an appearance!! 😉😀 Loch Ness by any chance?

I live Scotland. Some of the best driving roads in the UK. Well, apart from the A9.

 

[dublet]

18 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

This is why I keep on coming back to reality and actions. Show me how/when a hydrogen fuel cell car will be as convenient and easy to own a my current BEV and I'll consider buying one. But even if wealthy early adopters cannot be persuaded by hydrogen technology who is actually going to buy it??

Loads of people love to talk about how great hydrogen is, but why aren't people buying the cars?? And if no one buys the cars who is going to develop them or the fueling suppprt needed??

With BEV, you can charge at home, probably. Where as no one has a hydrogen generation facility at home, let alone the equipment to liquify it. Maybe you can get BOC to deliver a can to your home? Though their site suggests you'd need to buy industrial quantities.

A slight Tesla master stroke was to invest themselves into the Supercharger network, thus alleviating some of the long range anxiety. You don't see Toyota sponsoring the hydrogen infrastructure in the UK. Though they're doing some in the US:

https://pressroom.toyota.com/shell-toyota-and-honda-to-expand-california-hydrogen-refueling-infrastructure/

https://www.powerengineeringint.com/hydrogen/chevron-and-toyota-partner-to-develop-hydrogen-infrastructure/

[Linas.P]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:18 PM, ColinBarber said:

Certainly more fun than any available hydrogen car as they are all relatively slow and lacking in handling.

They are relatively slow indeed and I am not going to mention what is slow as well, but I am not sure why do you think they are handling poorly. 

Would you say that New Mirai handles significantly worse than ES? To be fair I have tried ES, but not tried Mirai yet. ES handling is OK, but that is about it just OK. Do you have reason to believe it wouldn't be the same for Mirai?

As well HCV are electrical cars, so there is nothing inherently preventing them from having larger electric motor and maybe slightly larger or simply higher voltage traction Battery and have same acceleration as any electric car. Sure, range will suffer if you want to hit 60MPH in 3s, but that is exactly the same with BEV. The benefit of HCV is that you won't see Battery degradation like BEV. Sure - BEVs you are be able to launch more often and drive them harder for longer as HCV will inevitably going to have smaller Battery and hydrogen cell won't be able to recharge it as quickly as you can use the energy, but only if you launching it continuously, but again BEVs have similar issue - you can't have Tesla continuously in "Ludicrous mode" as the Battery will overheat. Finally, I don't think anything more than 4s 0-60s is required in normal car. Stupid fast Teslas are nothing more than marketing trick... yes indeed it is cool when you can have "family" car which launches faster than most super cars, but it isn't necessary, nor practical. I mean even if they make HCV with 6s 0-60 that is plenty enough, for any situation on the road, especially together with instant response and torque from electric motor, just without any shortcomings of BEV. 

So on one hand you right - currently there are not cars which would be as fast as BEVs or to be fair exciting at all, but that is not an issue with HCV technology, is just manufacturers not making such model yet. I could argue there are no interesting BEV cars as well, because I specifically want coupe and as far as I know there is no single mainstream BEV Coupe... closest we have at the moment are BMW i8, RC300h and LC500h, but not a single BEV. So from this perspective I see no different in choice between BEV and HCV - neither is satisfactory for me. Sure I understand that this is not true for larger market, but there are HCV hatchback, SUV and saloon on sale... seems to cover all the needs from wider market? 

[Linas.P]

56 minutes ago, dublet said:

With BEV, you can charge at home, probably. Where as no one has a hydrogen generation facility at home, let alone the equipment to liquify it. Maybe you can get BOC to deliver a can to your home? Though their site suggests you'd need to buy industrial quantities.

A slight Tesla master stroke was to invest themselves into the Supercharger network, thus alleviating some of the long range anxiety. You don't see Toyota sponsoring the hydrogen infrastructure in the UK. Though they're doing some in the US:

https://pressroom.toyota.com/shell-toyota-and-honda-to-expand-california-hydrogen-refueling-infrastructure/

https://www.powerengineeringint.com/hydrogen/chevron-and-toyota-partner-to-develop-hydrogen-infrastructure/

Well, that is kind of the key thing - with hydrogen you can simply refuel same as you refuel petrol, takes 2-3 minutes, so hydrogen at home is not an issue. 

Likewise hydrogen station has much larger capacity than even supercharger. Single "pump" can serve 60-120 times more vehicles, than single charger. 

For example Tesla has 624 superchargers in UK. Spread across 63 locations. At the same time there are 20 hydrogen pumps across 14 locations - but in terms of fuelling capacity even the existing hydrogen pumps can fuel more cars in the same time than Tesla Superchargers. Now obviously, 63 locations means better spread then 14, and to be fair most of hydrogen pumps are in London... and there are a lot more non-tesla chargers (but number is kind of hard to estimate), so obviously hydrogen is currently harder to access unless you live in London, Swindon, Aberdeen or Sheffield. However, even ~10-15 more hydrogen stations would enable 80% of population to own the hydrogen car, simply because hydrogen station does not have same time limitations as electric charger. Assuming they will have 2 nozzles per pump (which is most common) 50 hydrogen pumps is equivalent to 6000 Superchargers. 

It is kind of sad that Toyota does not invest in infrastructure like Tesla, somehow I can't see it being big issue for Toyota to build 15 fuel stations.. even if estimated cost of Hydrogen station is £2million, £30 million is just change for Toyota, besides I am sure they don't even need to pay entire cost... I am sure something like BP or Shell would be happy to add hydrogen pump to their existing station (so the cost would actually drop, because rest of infrastructure is already there) and I am sure there must be some sort of goverment incentive as well. And all this debate about "where to fuel hydrogen car" would be forgotten. Obviously, I can't blame Toyota - after all they are car company and it is goverment job to ensure infrastructure is there, but that doesn't mean they can't diversify in other industries. Can't see it hurting them certainly.

[ganzoom]

^Its not news to anyone most BEV owners love their cars, and most recommend them to others.

California has the biggest hydrogen fuel station network in the US, but just read the owner reviews......and look at the cost of hydrogen fuel stations. €2million each to build, who is going to pay for them to be build in the UK, Toyota?, the government? Shell/BP? The answer is quite obvious when you look at the total lack of hydrogen infrastructure.

The only chance hydrogen has of success if early adopters really start buying them and business see a potential for profit. But who and where are the early adopters?

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-10/hydrogen-highway-or-highway-to-nowhere

https://www.torquenews.com/8113/toyota-mirai-owners-there-no-fuel-and-we-want-out-these-cars

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36003212/hydrogen-mirai-california-shortage/

Believe it or not I have briefly looked at the Mirai as a 'bargain used buy since they depreciate so much, infact a used Mirai costs less to buy than our IS300H new. But the issue comes I simply cannot actually use it like a normal car, with absolutely zero idea/guarantee anyone is going to be building hydrogen fuel stations near me.

So buying into hydrogen fuel cell cars is like wishing for world peace, its a great idea but ultimately it will forever remain that, just an idea.

[Malc]

21 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I have seen other stats where they as well remove planes, trains and ships, so suddenly cars share jumps to 30-40% despite it still being same stat.

isn't it also " fact " stated by some that cows generate some 40+% of carbon emissions, green---- house ?  gases ......  also computers, ipads, laptops and mobile phones generate similar sums too ........  in the end cars and mobile abilities on the roads, deserts, jungles etc probably do only generate that monster figure of a miserly 2.4%

BUT who on earth knows ( or even really really cares .  apart from Greta someone or other ! )  .... as I mentioned before somewhere on this Forum, has anyone calculated the actual carbon footprint / cost of the Branson and Tesla guys ventures into space for their jollies I wonder ... and there's two guys at the forefront of whingeing-on about saving the planet

Just a little more food for thought from some old bugger who's amazingly happy continuing to pollute a tiny amount with his E10 fuel in his wonderful but aged, old tec, old school, Ls400 

Malc

[doog442]

10 hours ago, ganzoom said:

When will we be able to do a 1000mile+ Scotland road ntrip in a hydrogen powered Lexus?? 

 

I've no idea as I'm not in any particular 'camp' when it comes to these things. When EV's with a decent range become affordable to the masses I might dip my toe in the water, likewise if Hydrogen takes off. 

I have a 400 mile round trip this weekend. The worry and inconvenience of having to charge something a couple of times would ruin the trip for me , so for now I'm sticking with my trusty six pot. 

[ColinBarber]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

They are relatively slow indeed and I am not going to mention what is slow as well, but I am not sure why do you think they are handling poorly. 

My comment was a reply to this:

Quote

Some fabulous driving roads in Scotland. I’ve done a tour of Scotland in a 5 litre V8 Jaguar. Bet I had more fun in that than I could ever have in a BEV

and therefore I'd say the Mirai, or ES, would not be as fun - they aren't drivers cars, and haven't been designed to be so.

As to the specific handling of the Mirai, I've not driven it to be able to compare to an ES but it certainly carries a lot more weight which is never a good thing for handling.

[Linas.P]

37 minutes ago, Malc said:

isn't it also " fact " stated by some that cows generate some 40+% of carbon emissions, green---- house ?  gases ......  also computers, ipads, laptops and mobile phones generate similar sums too ........  in the end cars and mobile abilities on the roads, deserts, jungles etc probably do only generate that monster figure of a miserly 2.4%

BUT who on earth knows ( or even really really cares .  apart from Greta someone or other ! )  .... as I mentioned before somewhere on this Forum, has anyone calculated the actual carbon footprint / cost of the Branson and Tesla guys ventures into space for their jollies I wonder ... and there's two guys at the forefront of whingeing-on about saving the planet

Just a little more food for thought from some old bugger who's amazingly happy continuing to pollute a tiny amount with his E10 fuel in his wonderful but aged, old tec, old school, Ls400 

Malc

Absolutely, driving something that is reliable and isn't absolutely terrible polluter is probably better than buying brand new Tesla. Besides you are right - people are involved in a lot of activity which pollutes, but frankly isn't necessary at all and does not benefit the society. You take example of space programmes, I often use cryptocurrencies. All crypto currencies nowadays uses so much electricity, that combined they are probably not far from passenger cars in terms of pollution. I personally have nothing against crypto currency, but if we thing about what purpose they have and why they matter for society, then I would argue personal passengers cars are far more beneficial than some digital coin which exists in the internet with token value. Besides there are nowadays new coins which don't use computing power/electricity (proof of stake model). I always just find hard to justify society crusade against passenger cars and consider it to be scapegoat subject. For politicians it is just easy to explain, relatable and most importantly profitable. 

I probably should use sources rather than talking from memory, but "industry sector" pollution it was something like 40% manufacturing, 24% energy, 14% farming, 12% households and 10% transportation... The figures I often quote as 2.4% for passenger cars are part of transportation. Now granted, this data changes every year and percentages move around, there are clear issues in dividing sectors e.g. I often see Energy and Manufacturing change places, there is argument as well that all transport runs on fossil fuel which is made in manufacturing, so actually transportation contributes more. Other factor - it is very important to find global data, because national data frankly does not matter when global warming is concerned and the stats can be easily manipulated e.g. UK virtually has no manufacturing sector left, so we import many goods... that may LED to believe transportation is far higher share in UK, then it actually is, because we still consume all those manufactured goods from China and elsewhere. Then we have terminology issues - sometimes it is CO2, sometimes it is greenhouse gasses, sometimes both means the same, sometimes transportation is called "transportation and storage", which clearly has little to do with passenger cars. And finally, I would take all these stats with the pinch of salt - they are estimates at best, but they are closest to the factual information we have.

What is annoying that as far as I can see there is no such thing as "pollution" summary. It is always just CO2 or NOx, but those are just 2 out of dozen major pollutants, there are sulphur, particulate matter, heavy metals, various types of chemical waste etc. And it seems we only ever worrying about CO2. With such flawed data I can't even see how actually smart person could make right decision, never mind politician. 

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

it certainly carries a lot more weight which is never a good thing for handling.

Ok I see... I was looking more from perspective of "inherent flaw with technology"...

I generally agree with you, but when you say it Tesla immanently springs to mind. Other car nearly 2tons - Nissan GTR, New Bentley Continental. I guess my point - it is possible to make heavy car to handle reasonably well, although you are most likely correct Mirai won't be "best handling car ever", but I still think it would handle reasonably well for what it is. 

[dublet]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Well, that is kind of the key thing - with hydrogen you can simply refuel same as you refuel petrol, takes 2-3 minutes, so hydrogen at home is not an issue.

Right no, no you cannot. My closest hydrogen refuelling station is in east London and approx 30 minutes drive away and almost all of the reviews say that it's constantly out of hydrogen.

The other refuelling stations are in west London and take anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5h to drive there. Maybe they'll have some hydrogen. Of course if I try the Rainham refuelling station first and find they're out, I need to drive across London. So that makes 2.5 driving for some hydrogen to fill up, with another hour or so to get back home.

Also, as for the claim that hydrogen refuelling stations can deliver fuel more quickly. In theory, but the Hydrogen Map clearly states a limit of hydrogen per day that the stations are able to provide, so *right now* it's not correct.

This is the problem with emerging infrastructure that BEV circumvent by the very nature of electricity is that electricity is *EVERYWHERE* thanks to the National Grid.

Slow charging > no fuel.

[Linas.P]

27 minutes ago, dublet said:

Right no, no you cannot. My closest hydrogen refuelling station is in east London and approx 30 minutes drive away and almost all of the reviews say that it's constantly out of hydrogen.

The other refuelling stations are in west London and take anywhere from 45 minutes to 1.5h to drive there. Maybe they'll have some hydrogen. Of course if I try the Rainham refuelling station first and find they're out, I need to drive across London. So that makes 2.5 driving for some hydrogen to fill up, with another hour or so to get back home.

Also, as for the claim that hydrogen refuelling stations can deliver fuel more quickly. In theory, but the Hydrogen Map clearly states a limit of hydrogen per day that the stations are able to provide, so *right now* it's not correct.

This is the problem with emerging infrastructure that BEV circumvent by the very nature of electricity is that electricity is *EVERYWHERE* thanks to the National Grid.

Slow charging > no fuel.

I would see equation rather like "no charging = no fuel", because I think you will find that not being able to there to charge at home is more common than hydrogen pump running out of hydrogen  (on the premise that unlike hydrogen you must be able to charge at home to own BEV). 

Now sure - it would be major inconvenience for me if Rainham hydrogen station is out of hydrogen (it is ~5miles drive from me) and that would certainly ruin my day. But this isn't issue with the technology. As well, my comparison was regarding the charging itself, not how to get to the station, so I sense strawman fallacy here. Besides it would not do much better with BEV in this case - not only you need to get to the right charger for your car, but as well you need to make sure it is part of scheme you already subscribed (there are few dozen different schemes) and even then it is not guaranteed the charger will work when you arrive. Charging point are very often out of order as well (but I don't blame BEV technology for that). 

What I want to make absolutely clear is that momentary issues with particular supplier, brand or cannot be generalised into issue with technology. For example Tesla are terribly unreliable and has horrible build quality, but that does not mean BEVs are all like that. Likewise issues with one particular hydrogen station running out of hydrogen does not mean that hydrogen cell vehicle technology is flawed.

Besides electricity is not "everywhere"... there are no electricity next most parkings, that I have electricity at home it does not mean I can charge my car which is in underground garage maybe 20-30 metres from my flat, likewise despite national grid being far more developed than hydrogen logistics, that does not mean that it can cope with charging BEVs in it's current state, especially if we want to replace majority of the cars with BEVs. Finally, let's not forget you don't need just "any electricity", you specifically need high-voltage fast charging electricity if you in BEV... and that isn't as common as your post may suggest.

[dublet]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I would see equation rather like "no charging = no fuel", because I think you will find that not being able to there to charge at home is more common than hydrogen pump running out of hydrogen  (on the premise that unlike hydrogen you must be able to charge at home to own BEV).

My point is more that in an emergency, you could charge if you asked someone to hook up, whereas with hydrogen you require an actual refuelling station.

Quote

Charging point are very often out of order as well

Yes, but these days there are plenty.

Quote

What I want to make absolutely clear is that momentary issues with particular supplier, brand or cannot be generalised into issue with technology.[..] Likewise issues with one particular hydrogen station running out of hydrogen does not mean that hydrogen cell vehicle technology is flawed.

Yes, but with hydrogen you are simply in need of a station, which is most cases is simply not there. With BEV charging, you have other options.

Quote

Finally, let's not forget you don't need just "any electricity", you specifically need high-voltage fast charging electricity if you in BEV...

No, you don't. You simply need enough charge to get to a fast charging station. Zap map shows that near me in approx 2 miles, there are 2 pubs, 2 super markets and a car parking offering charging. I could go to Tesco, do my shopping while it charges, and hey presto.

At present BEV would be a mild inconvenience to me, whereas hydrogen just not an option at all.

My only problem with hydrogen is that as of now, the infrastructure is not there. It could be but the planned amount of refuelling stations is quite minimal. And BEV is stealing a march on it as a result.

 

[dutchie01]

Living in The Netherlands i find it special to see that part of the negativity towards BEVs in the UK is the current lack of charging infrastructure. Time and again this comes back in posts that it wont be possible to charge here or drive there.

The current situation in Holland will allow me to drive an electric car almost alike a fossil one. With 80.000 charging points in the country ( public ones so without home charging) There is one available everywhere. I could charge at my office, my customers, petrolstations, parking garages, airports, city centres, supermarkets and so on. I could even drive one without beeing able to home charge!

The charging network is expanding at an enormous rate to 1.7 million in 2030, so 9 years time. 20% of new car sales are currently BEV. This is reality and not a future prediction. What about the UK?  

[dublet]

Zap Map has some UK statistics: https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ 25280 locations, with 10844 rapid chargers.

So far fewer chargers for a much larger country.

As a Dutch citizen in the UK - the UK is not good at public infrastructure.

[Malc]

17 minutes ago, dublet said:

2 super markets and a car parking offering charging. I could go to Tesco, do my shopping while it charges, and hey presto.

............ and join the Q of the other 275 cars waiting for the chargers 

Malc

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

This is reality and not a future prediction. What about the UK?

well, I know BP is developing it's hydrogen fuel facility in the north of England and I'm surmising will be fitting said fuel pumps at each and all it's 1100 ? estate in the UK as a starter ! ........  and then some more in Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury and Morrisons no doubt 

 

10 minutes ago, dublet said:

the UK is not good at public infrastructure.

other than maybe several '000's of fuel stations as no doubt Shell, Esso, and all the other odd-ball named fuel stations will be stocking-up too 

Malc

[Linas.P]

49 minutes ago, dublet said:

My point is more that in an emergency, you could charge if you asked someone to hook up, whereas with hydrogen you require an actual refuelling station.

Yes, but these days there are plenty.

Yes, but with hydrogen you are simply in need of a station, which is most cases is simply not there. With BEV charging, you have other options.

No, you don't. You simply need enough charge to get to a fast charging station. Zap map shows that near me in approx 2 miles, there are 2 pubs, 2 super markets and a car parking offering charging. I could go to Tesco, do my shopping while it charges, and hey presto.

At present BEV would be a mild inconvenience to me, whereas hydrogen just not an option at all.

My only problem with hydrogen is that as of now, the infrastructure is not there. It could be but the planned amount of refuelling stations is quite minimal. And BEV is stealing a march on it as a result.

 

For many people every day will be emergency then... 

If I reply like for like - for BEV you simply need to be able to charge at home.

I agree that in emergency you don't need fast charging, but generally you do... Charging BEV with standard socket takes like 72hours. Sure if you just need to move 3 miles to the next station, you may be able to do that in 20-30 minutes, but that is still significant inconvenience.

Zap Map shows a lot of stations, problem is there are a lot of different schemes and you can't just use any of them. They all have different membership and different fee structures, so you must stick with the membership of couple schemes you use most often. 

42 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Living in The Netherlands i find it special to see that part of the negativity towards BEVs in the UK is the current lack of charging infrastructure. Time and again this comes back in posts that it wont be possible to charge here or drive there.

The current situation in Holland will allow me to drive an electric car almost alike a fossil one. With 80.000 charging points in the country ( public ones so without home charging) There is one available everywhere. I could charge at my office, my customers, petrolstations, parking garages, airports, city centres, supermarkets and so on. I could even drive one without beeing able to home charge!

The charging network is expanding at an enormous rate to 1.7 million in 2030, so 9 years time. 20% of new car sales are currently BEV. This is reality and not a future prediction. What about the UK?  

First of all it is not "negativity" it is reality, practicality (or lack of it), but that is true - In UK it is nothing like in Netherlands if what you saying is true. There are no charging point anywhere, definitely not at homes and in the cities most homes don't have parking spaces... forget about chargers. Offices most definitely don't have chargers and most officers likewise don't have parking spaces. Public parkings sometimes have few charging points, but again they not always work and I cannot overstate this enough - you can't just use any charging point in UK. There are membership schemes. It has been few years since I have to use them and I hope goverment will get on top of that (it would make sense), but you have to stick to certain network. 

It is like gym membership - if you are member of Fitness First, then you can't just pop into Virgin Health and expect them to let you use facilities. 

The only exception to this rules is Tesla Superchargers network, which has universal standards - so if you know there is supercharger you know it will work and it will be fast and it will charge your car... and most importantly most of Tesla owners still gets free supercharging. But that is tesla exclusive and not a wider market.  

[dublet]

3 minutes ago, Malc said:

well, I know BP is developing it's hydrogen fuel facility in the north of England and I'm surmising will be fitting said fuel pumps at each and all it's 1100 ? estate in the UK as a starter ! ........  and then some more in Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury and Morrisons no doubt 

http://www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/#go-hydrogen_infrastructure 4 planned in England.

Quote

other than maybe several '000's of fuel stations as no doubt Shell, Esso, and all the other odd-ball named fuel stations will be stocking-up too 

The UK is shockingly bad at having coherent plans for public infrastructure. Petrol/diesel fuel stations were not set up as part of public infrastructure, which adds to my point. Similarly, UK railways are expensive, unreliable and generally appalling due to a lack of forward planning from successive governments. I mean, even the roads are terrible.

So, who is going to set up these mythical hydrogen refuelling stations. Certainly not the UK government. Not Toyota. Shell is dragging their heels. 🤷‍♂️

[Malc]

3 minutes ago, dublet said:

these mythical hydrogen refuelling stations

Govts worldwide never seem to do much useful nor coherent and certainly wouldn't be interested in having a handle on fuelling stations methinks .....  it takes brave and well funded businesses to change myths to reality and the " oil " giants, Aramco and the like, have all the necessaries to shell out I'm sure ... even if it's not the Royal Dutch variety 

Malc

[ColinBarber]

24 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

and most importantly most of Tesla owners still gets free supercharging. But that is tesla exclusive and not a wider market.  

Well over 60% of Tesla owners don't get free charging.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, ColinBarber said:

Well over 60% of Tesla owners don't get free charging.

Well, ok... maybe that was one of the points which got Tesla of the ground, but I am sure that few years ago that was big advantage compared to other BEVs. And even today 40% of owners having basically free electricity is still big thing.