Are we likely to see a hydrogen IS300?

[paulrnx]

13 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Here is some more stuff for you to get worked about for no reason.....

Shame you to find the idea BEVs work so well in the real world so difficult to accept, yet belive hydrogen is the future with zero real world proof it will ever work.

I saw dozens of EVs today around Loch Lomond, EQC/eTron/iPaces, can you guess how many hydrogen fuel cell cars I've seen today🤣.

If Lexus wants to keep on selling 'premium' new cars they better get the BEV version of the RX out ASAP!

We are not saying that Hydrogen is the answer now. I think we are saying it might well be the answer in future when BEVs are proven to be unsustainable. I still hold to this view.

Some fabulous driving roads in Scotland. I’ve done a tour of Scotland in a 5 litre V8 Jaguar. Bet I had more fun in that than I could ever have in a BEV.

[DBIZO]

7 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Now that is a fine post. Unfortunately not all of your posts are. There is something wrong with your rear doors though. Tesla have mounted the hinges on the wrong pillar 🤣

Probably they don't always close, hence the pictures? Also, can someone enlighten me what's the point of making only the rear doors that way, and claim you can park in tight spaces? How are people in the front supposed to get out, climbing to the back first?

[paulrnx]

Has anyone driven the new Mirai?

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, DBIZO said:

Also, can someone enlighten me what's the point of making only the rear doors that way, and claim you can park in tight spaces? How are people in the front supposed to get out, climbing to the back first?

 but it's to make is easy for parents to get young kids in/out of car seats or for passengers to get in/out of the third row of seats (if you have a 6 or 7 seat option).

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, paulrnx said:

Bet I had more fun in that than I could ever have in a BEV.

Certainly more fun than any available hydrogen car as they are all relatively slow and lacking in handling.

[dublet]

6 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Certainly more fun than any available hydrogen car as they are all relatively slow and lacking in handling.

Just have to save up some pennies: https://www.hyperion.inc/

[ColinBarber]

3 minutes ago, dublet said:

Just have to save up some pennies: https://www.hyperion.inc/

I get the feeling it may be expensive 😉 

If they can get supercapacitors working in that type of application then they eventually become available for BEVs too, at which point you might as well do away with the HFC as you can charge them up within minutes.

[Las Palmas]

I saw a brand new IS300h registered this month today.

They can still be bought new here.

[royoftherovers]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

I saw a brand new IS300h registered this month today.

They can still be bought new here.

John, where is here ?

[dublet]

There's a big difference between "newly made" and "newly registered".

[dutchie01]

59 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

I saw a brand new IS300h registered this month today.

They can still be bought new here.

Likely to be a stock car which is now sold and registered?

[Shahpor]

Just seen this on Facebook 🙂

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4869977863017414&set=a.235117943170119

 

[dublet]

As opposed to:

From the 2012 fuel strike. Lets not pretend fuel is without issues. 🤷‍♂️

[Shahpor]

Not quite comparing like for like now, are you?

One is a lack of infrastructure and the other is a freak occurrence created by very specific factors.

[Las Palmas]

5 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

John, where is here ?

Las Palmas de Gran Canaria

[royoftherovers]

Just now, Las Palmas said:

Las Palmas de Gran Canaria

Gracias mi amigo.

[Las Palmas]

5 hours ago, dublet said:

There's a big difference between "newly made" and "newly registered".

License plate does tell when it is registered. Yes.

[Las Palmas]

29 minutes ago, dublet said:

As opposed to:

From the 2012 fuel strike. Lets not pretend fuel is without issues. 🤷‍♂️

Only fools and horses will buy a BEV if not having charging station at home.

[ganzoom]

10 hours ago, paulrnx said:

Has anyone driven the new Mirai?

And there lies the biggest issue with hydrogen, who actually have shown it works as a family car?? Even James May hasn't taken his Mirai beyond the comfort blanket of been within reach of a handful of hydrogen fuel stations- Which haven't increased in numbers at all in recent years.

Yet our 4.5 year old EV has just taken us the Highlands from the midlands with zero issues......Our EV will be half a decade old next year when I plan on doing a tour of Norway in it.

Hydrogen or Battery EVs, as far as am concerned one is snake oil been sold on a promise that is always coming but never actually here, the other, well it just works.

So has anyone driven a Mirai or intend to take ownership of a hydrogen IS if Lexus made one for sale tomorrow?

[DBIZO]

10 hours ago, ganzoom said:

And there lies the biggest issue with hydrogen, who actually have shown it works as a family car?? Even James May hasn't taken his Mirai beyond the comfort blanket of been within reach of a handful of hydrogen fuel stations- Which haven't increased in numbers at all in recent years.

Yet our 4.5 year old EV has just taken us the Highlands from the midlands with zero issues......Our EV will be half a decade old next year when I plan on doing a tour of Norway in it.

Hydrogen or Battery EVs, as far as am concerned one is snake oil been sold on a promise that is always coming but never actually here, the other, well it just works.

So has anyone driven a Mirai or intend to take ownership of a hydrogen IS if Lexus made one for sale tomorrow?

Is it possible you've been musked?

How many charging stations were there 5 years ago? 10 years ago? Why cannot you fathom the same might happen to hydrogen infrastructure in the future? BEV simply cannot be the sole answer - it's immensely wasteful, impractical for long-haul and larger (even a van) vehicle applications. City cars, commuting? Absolutely. For consumers with money to spend on a new toy? Fantastic business, as evidenced. To clean up hundreds of millions of vehicles, we will need other options, including other Battery types (Li-ion simply won't do the job), clean burning fuels, be it hydrogen, ammonia etc. too.

The Internet says there are well over a 1 billion private cars on the road, plus some 400 million trucks and buses. That's today, not in 20 years, when there will be more. New car sales are 70-80 million a year. How exactly do you propose we build batteries for all of that? How do you propose we charge all those BEVs at night? We are talking a scaling factor of 100x.

Even if we could, how fast that will happen to have any meaningful impact on climate change?

Is it possible that pushing hybrids makes more sense? Because if you use 1/10th of the electrification capacity per car, you can produce 10x more hybrids than BEVs within the same period, achieving probably 5x more carbon reduction in tailpipe. Even a mild hybrid like an IS 300h achieves 30-40% real-world tailpipe reduction with a 1.5 kW Nickel Battery and a single electric motor, with a plug-in hybrid it should go under 50% in mixed use). I'd wager even more when the lower electrical infrastructure needs are factored in, all that embodied carbon in building new electrical generation, transmission and distribution.

[dublet]

It's funny. Musk along with the name "Tesla", despite behaving like an Edison. He didn't invent the BEV, he didn't even start the Tesla company, he just put in some money in the first round of investing. And then by being a right Edison, has managed to take all the glory.

Personally though, I like what Tesla has been doing in pushing BEV forward. They did a lot of good work in terms of driving the adoption of Lithium batteries in BEV and most probably without them, none of the other car manufacturers would have invested it in as heavily as "early".

Lithium batteries are better than Nickel in terms of energy density but with energy density in batteries, you get a volatility problem. Which somehow no one cares about when it's a giant tank of flammable liquid. And yes, there are issues with how the raw ingredients for batteries are sourced, they are not environmentally friendly. Neither is a lot of the electricity generation.

There are some better chemical batteries on the way - apparently, and we could do a lot better in terms of recycling existing batteries.

What I'm a fan of most of all though is the electric motor. It's simple, almost maintenance free, hugely powerful. In most ways utterly beats ICE.

The biggest problem with electric motors is how to store the energy required. Hydrogen has a lot of theoretical advantages, but it will take time to make them happen.

The biggest plus with electricity itself, is that it's almost everywhere already. We have a National Grid. Granted it's shoddy - like most of the UK's infrastructure - but it's there. This cannot be said for hydrogen. Another possibility with BEV would be that it should be possible to upgrade batteries to better chemistry when that comes about.

Also, the very same people who slate BEV for being environmentally unfriendly due to the way electricity is generated, seem to think that the electricity for hydrogen generation won't be generated in exactly the same way.

But then again my own hypocrisy. I like BEVs as a concept, but yet even for me despite my claim the infrastructure being there, I still purchased myself a hybrid car. Why? I wanted to drastically reduce my fuel usage, which it has achieved. Where I live, while I could charge, it would be inconvenient, along with a need to do occasional international trips.

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

Is it possible you've been musked?

How many charging stations were there 5 years ago? 10 years ago? Why cannot you fathom the same might happen to hydrogen infrastructure in the future? BEV simply cannot be the sole answer - it's immensely wasteful, impractical for long-haul and larger (even a van) vehicle applications. City cars, commuting? Absolutely. For consumers with money to spend on a new toy? Fantastic business, as evidenced. To clean up hundreds of millions of vehicles, we will need other options, including other battery types (Li-ion simply won't do the job), clean burning fuels, be it hydrogen, ammonia etc. too.

The Internet says there are well over a 1 billion private cars on the road, plus some 400 million trucks and buses. That's today, not in 20 years, when there will be more. New car sales are 70-80 million a year. How exactly do you propose we build batteries for all of that? How do you propose we charge all those BEVs at night? We are talking a scaling factor of 100x.

Even if we could, how fast that will happen to have any meaningful impact on climate change?

Is it possible that pushing hybrids makes more sense? Because if you use 1/10th of the electrification capacity per car, you can produce 10x more hybrids than BEVs within the same period, achieving probably 5x more carbon reduction in tailpipe. Even a mild hybrid like an IS 300h achieves 30-40% real-world tailpipe reduction with a 1.5 kW Nickel battery and a single electric motor, with a plug-in hybrid it should go under 50% in mixed use). I'd wager even more when the lower electrical infrastructure needs are factored in, all that embodied carbon in building new electrical generation, transmission and distribution.

Can you please stop staying exactly what is on my mind ?! People may start suspecting this is just my second account  😅 

I would just add that cars worldwide only responsible for 2.4% of greenhouse gases (2.1% diesel 0.3% petrol). This is different from what we usually see quoted - where cars contributes 10-50% of pollution, that is completely different metric and it is tailpipe emissions measured at kerbside, which are done in order to test air quality in the cities. Other thing many articles likes to do is to use only partial stats (cherry picking) e.g. worldwide emissions from transportation are 10% of total, but they often only take transportation pie chart which shows that private vehicles contributes 24% (which is just 2.4% really, but they conveniently forget to state it is 24% of 10%). I have seen other stats where they as well remove planes, trains and ships, so suddenly cars share jumps to 30-40% despite it still being same stat. 

As you can imagine, the first metric is important for climate change, second metric does not matter for climate change and it is more to do with people health in the city... yet it is still kind of misleading due to methodology they use. What I mean is that - testing at the kerbside obviously going to give only emissions from vehicles... I have no idea how they calculate that considering that testing equipment can't determine whenever they came from public transport, commercial delivery vehicles of private cars. Maybe they just count the numbers (in which case it would be wrong as car does not pollute as much as bus, despite there being far more cars on the roads numerically). Testing at kerbside is as well quite flawed, because obviously it is going to show disproportionally higher pollution from cars... if we put same probe next to gas heater tailpipe, then suddenly it will be 100% gas heater pollution. I think DW did documentary and they compared kerbside emissions and emissions inside the flat just on the side of the street and inside the flat emissions were half of what was measured on the street. To be fair I still had an issue with their methodology, as they fitted probe just before the traffic lights i.e. where all the cars brake, accelerate and stay idling, which is not really a fair measure. Clearly it would not be the same on side free flowing traffic. 

Anyway - what I am saying BEVs as a solution to reduce global green house gases pollution and to combat climate change are not even effective. They have ~30% reduction compared to average ICE car and that means replacing all ICEs with all BEVs will only save ~0.7% of pollution, which is tiny change. I would even argue that they may have net negative effect short term as manufacturing sector is largest polluter and contributes nearly 40% of pollution. As we know BEVs production are far more polluting so in short term this change may actually increase the pollution. 

For the second part where the city air quality is concerned - yes BEVs are great solution, that is where it works and will arguably have reduction of ~10-50% of pollution.

Finally, I have highlighted key point - as for global warming and climate change mild hybrids already achieve same level of green house gasses emissions reduction without having massive batteries. Sadly, as always political decision are made by ill informed people who have no expertise in the field and could not even bother researching the topic. If they would understand the differences in the statistics, then maybe we would have different decisions and different solutions. 

[royoftherovers]

Yawn, yawn mi amigo!😜😜

[doog442]

20 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Yet our 4.5 year old EV has just taken us the Highlands from the midlands with zero issues......Our EV will be half a decade old next year when I plan on doing a tour of Norway in it.

 

That's good going Mr Zoom. I presume the previous reliability issues you suffered are in the past?  A Norway road trip is on my agenda as well, it looks fantastic. 

[paulrnx]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:18 PM, ColinBarber said:

Certainly more fun than any available hydrogen car as they are all relatively slow and lacking in handling.

Yes that too 😀