Festival of the unexceptional

First_Lexus · August 1, 2021

This is my kind of car show, with a great walk around by Ian Hubnut. I just love ordinary cars - if I had a fantasy barn it would have to include a Skoda Estelle, Lada Riva, Hillman Imp, VW Lupo, Volvo 340, Toyota Corona (1975 vintage) Renault 5, Renault 25, Alfa 75, Peugeot 205, Vauxhall Chevette and a Daihatsu Move just for a start…🤪

Las Palmas · August 1, 2021

Renault 5.

Absolutely. the first not the second.

Sorry. Could not help it.

The-Acre · August 1, 2021

I like it!

Las Palmas · August 1, 2021

Another French car I really like:

Peugeot 205

Spottedlaurel · August 1, 2021

As reported elsewhere, I was there in my LS400 Mk1 (visible on the video at around 8:25, along with me chatting to friends). I'll put some of my photos in this thread when I get them edited.

It's a great show, full of stuff which is in a significant minority and often overlooked at 'normal' classic car shows. I've been to it several times previously since 2016, so far I've managed to take a different car each time.

Edit: Only 40-odd seconds in and my car makes an appearance here......

In this video:

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

Yeah... not my sort of deal. I do appreciate older cars and I will always choose older and higher class car over newer lower class one. So yes - old Lexus with all options and big V8 is cool, maybe some high trim level Volvo, that is good as well. But entry level econo-boxes have always been and will always stay the same - product for consumerism, buy-it, use-it and throw-it away... they are even designed in a way to be easy to recycle, rather than designed to be good cars and last. Trying to keep them running is futile, they never meant to run past their engineered life-span.

Spacewagon52 · August 2, 2021

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Trying to keep them running is futile, they never meant to run past their engineered life-span.

Futile? Maybe not, as people ARE keeping them going and our motoring heritage is saved for others to admire and enjoy.

I take my hat of to you all! Loved the story of the Toyota Tercel!

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

15 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Futile? Maybe not, as people ARE keeping them going and our motoring heritage is saved for others to admire and enjoy.

Please consider context of my comment - I said there are great old cars, which hare definitely worth saving, which are interesting and important to keep as heritage. But there are others which were trash when you new and are still trash nowadays and will always be trash, nothing admire and nothing to enjoy - unless people have some perverse masochistic needs to punish themselves... great examples would be Lada or anything that Daihatsu or Daewoo made.

I am into classic cars myself and one day I would like to be able to restore them myself (my retirement plan), so I definitely appreciate good classic, but some cars are just not "classic" and will never be. I can draw analogy to wine here - if you have bottle of cheap crap wine today, you can keep it for another 200 years and it will still going to be cheap crap wine, just 200 years outdated. Same with cars - some of them are better to be scrapped and forgotten.

rob_clio172 · August 2, 2021

Love this kind of thing, this is the beauty of everyone having their own taste and opinion.

It's only "futile" if you don't have an interest in that particular make/model.

Daihatsu actually made a good little car in the Charade Turbo, little 3cylinder turbo job.... in my own opinion of course.

First_Lexus · August 2, 2021

57 minutes ago, rob_clio172 said:

Love this kind of thing, this is the beauty of everyone having their own taste and opinion.

It's only "futile" if you don't have an interest in that particular make/model.

Daihatsu actually made a good little car in the Charade Turbo, little 3cylinder turbo job.... in my own opinion of course.

^^ I think it’s also worth noting that much of our understanding of the past comes from common items that weren’t intended to be saved…

I just love everyday cars - the unexceptional. The exotic stuff is interesting occasionally, but I’m more fascinated by the cars that mean something to me - those that I owned, that my Father owned, that my friends and neighbours owned, that I used to see every day but which have now all but vanished. There is more joy for me in a Vauxhall Viva HA or an Austin Maestro than in ten Ferrari or Porsche super cars.

I accept my view may not be common, but as a historian by education that’s the way I’m wired!

royoftherovers · August 2, 2021

50 minutes ago, rob_clio172 said:

Love this kind of thing, this is the beauty of everyone having their own taste and opinion.

It's only "futile" if you don't have an interest in that particular make/model.

Daihatsu actually made a good little car in the Charade Turbo, little 3cylinder turbo job.... in my own opinion of course.

Your own opinion is correct rob. I had one and got 84mpg Wirral to Wimbledon and back.

Linas is often wrong.

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

25 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Linas is often wrong.

Often... according to whom ? 😁

I think it is fair to say, be it my opinion, that if even engineers and the makers of the car didn't like their product and designed it deliberately to fail and become waste, then it can't be good.

I remember documentary about PSA Group and it was head of design speaking about development of their cars. I am not sure how it was called, but it was from ~2002/2003 maybe. He said something along the lines - "our cars are designed first and foremost to be easily recycled, they are not overengineered to last 10 or 20 years. It isn't that we can't make the cars to last, but simple truth is that people don't drive their cars that long, so there is no point in engineering the car to last, as such we better understand our customer and we can deliver the car they like and need for 3-5 years, once warranty expires the car will most likely going to fail soon after and that is the way they are designed to give our customers most freedom". He was very proud as well of basically making this statement that they making trash for consumers to use and throw away and it was clear he thinks simply designing the cars to be easy to recycle is good enough. I would not bore you with details of how they spent 100 million euros to design specific fabric for the car which was easier to shred than normal seat materials etc.

Now I thought - I will not touch another PSA car even with a barge pole. If company spends their engineering prowess not to design cars to be fast, to be good handling, to be powerful, to be reliable and generally what I consider to be a good car... but they only spending time focusing on what happens when it becomes trash it is... then they not making cars, they making trash and there is no reason to buy their products and for them to exist as a company.

Now it is important to note that what PSA did in 90's and 2000's since have been adopted by many other makers e.g. Nissan, Mitsubishi, entry Level BMW (1-Series and entry level 3-series), MB A class in particular (so much so that MB even built plant in Hungary so that sub-par culture of building car would no poison their proper car models, the only A-Class they assemble in Germany are AMG models), VW group does that with Skoda/Seat and some cheaper VW (like Lupo, Up!), I am sure GM and Fiat are on board. Those cars are "fast fashion of the cars world" - they are sort of things you "wear once and throw away". They symbolise large part of what is wrong with this world and consumerism.

Obviously, it is fair to say that in 70s or 80s, such planned obsolescence strategies were not as defined or deliberately used, but it does not mean there were not many absolutely horrible cars. Some by design, some by simply being made in a way where every single corner was cut and result was horrible car.

Finally, I appreciate that some people may have some moral attachment to some particularly horrible car. Maybe it was their first car and they spent their teen years driving them and therefore those cars means a lot to them. Or their parents owned them or something along those lines, but that does not make these cars objectively good or worth restoring.

Kevin Williams · August 2, 2021

1 hour ago, rob_clio172 said:

Love this kind of thing, this is the beauty of everyone having their own taste and opinion.

It's only "futile" if you don't have an interest in that particular make/model.

Daihatsu actually made a good little car in the Charade Turbo, little 3cylinder turbo job.... in my own opinion of course.

You mention 3 cylinder turbo job... My first car at 16, isn't in the video... a 3 wheeler Reliant Robin...! Mine was in the colour... British Racing Green...!

I bet Linas has never driven one...! If I had a photo of it I would attach it...! I am not ashamed of having owned one...! Like David Jason, I also had my own helicopter...!

royoftherovers · August 2, 2021

According to me my friend. Another diatribe is unwarranted, thank you, so I have not read it.

rob_clio172 · August 2, 2021

34 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Often... according to whom ? 😁

I think it is fair to say, be it my opinion, that if even engineers and the makers of the car didn't like their product and designed it deliberately to fail and become waste, then it can't be good.

I remember documentary about PSA Group and it was head of design speaking about development of their cars. I am not sure how it was called, but it was from ~2002/2003 maybe. He said something along the lines - "our cars are designed first and foremost to be easily recycled, they are not overengineered to last 10 or 20 years. It isn't that we can't make the cars to last, but simple truth is that people don't drive their cars that long, so there is no point in engineering the car to last, as such we better understand our customer and we can deliver the car they like and need for 3-5 years, once warranty expires the car will most likely going to fail soon after and that is the way they are designed to give our customers most freedom". He was very proud as well of basically making this statement that they making trash for consumers to use and throw away and it was clear he thinks simply designing the cars to be easy to recycle is good enough. I would not bore you with details of how they spent 100 million euros to design specific fabric for the car which was easier to shred than normal seat materials etc.

Now I thought - I will not touch another PSA car even with a barge pole. If company spends their engineering prowess not to design cars to be fast, to be good handling, to be powerful, to be reliable and generally what I consider to be a good car... but they only spending time focusing on what happens when it becomes trash it is... then they not making cars, they making trash and there is no reason to buy their products and for them to exist as a company.

Now it is important to note that what PSA did in 90's and 2000's since have been adopted by many other makers e.g. Nissan, Mitsubishi, entry Level BMW (1-Series and entry level 3-series), MB A class in particular (so much so that MB even built plant in Hungary so that sub-par culture of building car would no poison their proper car models, the only A-Class they assemble in Germany are AMG models), VW group does that with Skoda/Seat and some cheaper VW (like Lupo, Up!), I am sure GM and Fiat are on board. Those cars are "fast fashion of the cars world" - they are sort of things you "wear once and throw away". They symbolise large part of what is wrong with this world and consumerism.

Obviously, it is fair to say that in 70s or 80s, such planned obsolescence strategies were not as defined or deliberately used, but it does not mean there were not many absolutely horrible cars. Some by design, some by simply being made in a way where every single corner was cut and result was horrible car.

Finally, I appreciate that some people may have some moral attachment to some particularly horrible car. Maybe it was their first car and they spent their teen years driving them and therefore those cars means a lot to them. Or their parents owned them or something along those lines, but that does not make these cars objectively good or worth restoring.

But that's all irrelevant if someone has an interest or has a passion for what they own, completely irrelevant.

Most of those cars probably haven't even been restored just maintained over the years by owners who in there opinion find them interesting and enjoy them for what they are.

Imagine if everyone had the same interest, thought process..... oh and opinion.

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

11 minutes ago, Kevin Williams said:

I bet Linas has never driven one...! If I had a photo of it I would attach it...! I am not ashamed of having owned one...! Like David Jason, I also had my own helicopter...!

I certainly haven't, because that would be the car who can be deservedly scrapped, forgotten and never worth remembering. But I must admit - some cars are so notoriously terrible, that they even get some cult following... just trolling collector and people expectations I guess! Reliant Robin and few other monstrosities they made are firmly in this "troll" category.

10 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

According to me my friend. Another diatribe is unwarranted, thank you, so I have not read it.

That is relief then 👍 By the way it think you would be interested in the documentary I have mentioned, if only I could remember the name of it. It was to do with how "efficient and modern" car industry is and generally interesting, sadly PSA have shot themselves in the foot trying to spin bad thing good way. At least in my oppinion.

rob_clio172 · August 2, 2021

15 minutes ago, Kevin Williams said:

You mention 3 cylinder turbo job... My first car at 16, isn't in the video... a 3 wheeler Reliant Robin...! Mine was in the colour... British Racing Green...!

I bet Linas has never driven one...! If I had a photo of it I would attach it...! I am not ashamed of having owned one...! Like David Jason, I also had my own helicopter...!

My Uncle had 1 of those, no dodging pot holes in them 😂

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

4 minutes ago, rob_clio172 said:

Imagine if everyone had the same interest, thought process..... oh and opinion.

Well then they would end-up with cars which are widely accepted as appreciating classics and truly valuable. Whereas now they have have bunch of cars only they are interested in.

And all that is great! I certainly, can't tell people they can't enjoy their "unexceptional" cars. But likewise my first reaction to all those cars is as expected "what a bunch of trash" (which they are objectively speaking).

I already mentioned that I understand why some people have subjective views about certain cars and that is OK!... just doesn't make those cars good and I am not into habit of giving "award for participation".

NemesisUK · August 2, 2021

Fortunately 'good' is a subjective term ...

Linas.P · August 2, 2021

Not really - there are just objectively good and subjectively good.

Obviously, with complex object like car it is difficult to say if it is bad or good, because single car can have dozen good attributes and dozen bad attributes. It could be argued that with more bad attributes car is bad, but then it depends on what actually matters for the owner. Car could be objectively terrible, but have 3 good attributes about it and all 3 of them very important for the owner, so the owner will consider this car good and this would be subjective. That is why in the reviews cars are scored in different areas against different objectives and objective score is given in the end. Objectively any car which scores overall low is bad, and overall high is good, but people can have subjective views about it and like the cars which are bad.

When it comes to classic cars, this is not difficult to figure out... you will have "concours d'elegance" for those which have earned their title as a good cars historically and you will have "concours d'lemons" for those which are let's say "unexceptional"... stopping short of calling them crap. One thing to note - such events are often attended by car owners who have car which could be considered relatively good, but just isn't in pristine condition, but that is yet another topic.

NemesisUK · August 2, 2021

Kevin Williams · August 2, 2021

1 hour ago, rob_clio172 said:

My Uncle had 1 of those, no dodging pot holes in them 😂

I will totally disregard what Linas has said about Reliant Robins. Having owned several Porsches, several MB's, several BMW's, several Audi's, several Jags, a couple of Bentleys, a new NSX, a McLaren and several other cars. I have forgotten how many I have had. The Reliant Robin, at 16, was a great car...! I wished I had taken a photo of it. It would be my screensaver on my iMac...!

Spacewagon52 · August 2, 2021

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Your own opinion is correct rob. I had one and got 84mpg Wirral to Wimbledon and back.

Linas is often wrong.

John you are so naughty! Pulling the lion's tail!

Spacewagon52 · August 2, 2021

I am a bit confused Linas. Looking at your profile, do you no longer have a Lexus? Do you have a car at present? What was the last car you owned?

Are you no longer based in the UK?

rob_clio172 · August 2, 2021

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Not really - there are just objectively good and subjectively good.

Obviously, with complex object like car it is difficult to say if it is bad or good, because single car can have dozen good attributes and dozen bad attributes. It could be argued that with more bad attributes car is bad, but then it depends on what actually matters for the owner. Car could be objectively terrible, but have 3 good attributes about it and all 3 of them very important for the owner, so the owner will consider this car good and this would be subjective. That is why in the reviews cars are scored in different areas against different objectives and objective score is given in the end. Objectively any car which scores overall low is bad, and overall high is good, but people can have subjective views about it and like the cars which are bad.

When it comes to classic cars, this is not difficult to figure out... you will have "concours d'elegance" for those which have earned their title as a good cars historically and you will have "concours d'lemons" for those which are let's say "unexceptional"... stopping short of calling them crap. One thing to note - such events are often attended by car owners who have car which could be considered relatively good, but just isn't in pristine condition, but that is yet another topic.

So am I correct in saying you don't like these cars then?