A big surprise ?

[paulrnx]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:34 AM, Spacewagon52 said:

I bought my first MPV and subsequent SUV’s for the dog!

That is really no way to talk about one’s partner you know! 😉🤣🤣🤣

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

I don’t understand it. Drive what you want to drive and have some empathy with people who want to drive something else.

But if I follow this logic, then it would be SUV drivers who should have empathy towards normal car drivers - 80% of the choice nowadays are SUVs, and not much in terms of other body types. That is the point  - it isn't SUV drivers who are squeezed out of the market, it is everyone else.

[paulrnx]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:42 AM, royoftherovers said:

I`ve no personal experience of S.U.V type vehicles, but I `m informed that they are expensive to buy and lose a lot in depreciation as trade in values plummet.

Can anyone offer a view across the range of manufacturers ?

Not across marques but here is my experience.

Both of my NX vehicles have comfortably beaten the four 3rd generation IS vehicles I’ve owned in terms of depreciation. I sold my first NX for slightly under what I paid for it after 12 months of ownership. My current NX cannot now be bought for what I paid for it 12 months ago. The four IS vehicles I owned lost me a total of about £25k. £18k of that was for two brand new vehicles sold after 12 months and 18 months so it is about £7k for the two used IS vehicles I’ve owned. Versus almost nothing for the two used NX vehicles I’ve owned. Both NX were also kept twice as long as the two used IS. Some of this is down to demand I’m sure, there are just more people out there wanting to buy an NX rather than an IS.

[paulrnx]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But if I follow this logic, then it would be SUV drivers who should have empathy towards normal car drivers - 80% of the choice nowadays are SUVs, and not much in terms of other body types. That is the point  - it isn't SUV drivers who are squeezed out of the market, it is everyone else.

Your argument makes no sense. People buy what they want to buy and this is entirely reasonable. Empathy means having an understanding and acceptance of other people’s choices, nothing more. You have zero empathy towards anyone that holds a different view to you and you go on and on and on expressing your opinions and trying to force people to agree with you. Then, when this doesn’t work you say that they are wrong and cannot justify their opinions. You have zero empathy with anyone who holds a different opinion to you, absolutely zero.

[royoftherovers]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But if I follow this logic, then it would be SUV drivers who should have empathy towards normal car drivers - 80% of the choice nowadays are SUVs, and not much in terms of other body types. That is the point  - it isn't SUV drivers who are squeezed out of the market, it is everyone else.

You all miss the point that regardless of vehicle type, what is missing is that drivers are guilty of not according due respect to other drivers and of having almost a complete disregard for the Highway Code.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Your argument makes no sense. People buy what they want to buy and this is entirely reasonable. Empathy means having an understanding and acceptance of other people’s choices, nothing more. You have zero empathy towards anyone that holds a different view to you and you go on and on and on expressing your opinions and trying to force people to agree with you. Then, when this doesn’t work you say that they are wrong and cannot justify their opinions. You have zero empathy with anyone who holds a different opinion to you, absolutely zero.

I think that is quite harsh statement... 

Me saying I don't understand why would anyone need to have, want or should be allowed to own SUV... that would be me having "absolutely no empathy". 

But the reality is that SUVs are absolutely dominating the market and "people that holds different views" have absolutely not choice! It is not about respecting their choices, or SUV owners, nothing to do with respect or lack of it. Simply said how can you even respect my choice if I don't have one in the first place?!

And that I don't have much empathy that is true 😄 but I still have a little bit... just in this case it has nothing to do with empathy.  

[Phil xxkr]

14 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think that is quite harsh statement... 

Me saying I don't understand why would anyone need to have, want or should be allowed to own SUV... that would be me having "absolutely no empathy". 

But the reality is that SUVs are absolutely dominating the market and "people that holds different views" have absolutely not choice! It is not about respecting their choices, or SUV owners, nothing to do with respect or lack of it. Simply said how can you even respect my choice if I don't have one in the first place?!

And that I don't have much empathy that is true 😄 but I still have a little bit... just in this case it has nothing to do with empathy.  

But Linas in round figures more than 70 million cars are turned out by more than 200 manufacturers with n numbers of derivatives per annum. 😱 Is this lack of choice or are you thinking of bread rolls? 😋. If you are in the UK I would be concerned, as a car driver, by todays proposals to change the Highway Code. But if you and others persist with your "lack of choice social imperative" the answer is clear, band together a la Elon Musk, form you own company and make designs that you think people want more, simple. 🥳

[Linas.P]

Not sure I follow... yes there were 70+ million cars made, what difference does it make if they majority SUVs? 

How does having choice from 6 SUV model Lexus offers helps me if I am looking for Coupe? 

As for Highway code change - sorry not sure what it is about. 

[Phil xxkr]

21 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Not sure I follow... yes there were 70+ million cars made, what difference does it make if they majority SUVs? 

How does having choice from 6 SUV model Lexus offers helps me if I am looking for Coupe? 

As for Highway code change - sorry not sure what it is about. 

There are 200 + manufacturers Linas, surely out there there must be at least one making something to meet your exacting needs? Or is your argument purely with Lexus? If so two suggestions, go fish in another pond or aspire to be CEO of Lexus and change policy, both will add less stress than your current position 🤣

[Linas.P]

First of all I would like to question the number of 200+ car brands... How many of them are actually viable brands? Do we count Bugatti here, Zenos? 50 or so Chinese manufacturers which we never heard of, nor they sell cars outside of China? I think realistically in UK we have ~35 brands which could be considered when buying the car for 99% of population. Sure there will always be that 1% who can order customer Royce Royce from coach builder for £7.7million and could literally custom build anything they like. But is only relevant for dozen people at most.

We are talking about trend here and this trend is common across the industry. So if we go back to Lexus example and we extrapolate that trend for ~30 manufacturers what we will see that for people who are looking to buy hatchbacks, saloons and coupes the choice has halved, and in the same time choice for SUVs has increased. Not only that SUV choice was double to begin with...

So if previously there were ~150 models of SUV there are 180 now... and where there were 60 models of coupes it is 30 now. Argument is - those looking for SUVs already had massive choice to choose from, 30 coupes are actually not that many. First of all many of them will be supercar brands - Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche ( so not your practical everyday car), then there will be high number of performance cars like GT-R or AMG SLS, then we have cars in ~80k+ price range like LC, BMW 8-Series, Bentley Continental...  so really if you boil it down to "practical coupes" for daily driving which are not weekend toys, or supercars, that choice suddenly is very limited. What do we have left?

BMW 2 and 4 series, MB E and C-Class Coupe, Audi A5 Coupe, Toyota GT86 and Supra, Jaguar-F type and Ford Mustang. That is all - 9 models in total! Lexus will have 6 Models of SUVs alone. I am talking about new cars here, but in 10 years time this will be the choice on used market as well.

 

[Bluesman]

Keep it friendly.

[Phil xxkr]

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

First of all I would like to question the number of 200+ car brands... How many of them are actually viable brands? Do we count Bugatti here, Zenos? 50 or so Chinese manufacturers which we never heard of, nor they sell cars outside of China? I think realistically in UK we have ~35 brands which could be considered when buying the car for 99% of population. Sure there will always be that 1% who can order customer Royce Royce from coach builder for £7.7million and could literally custom build anything they like. But is only relevant for dozen people at most.

We are talking about trend here and this trend is common across the industry. So if we go back to Lexus example and we extrapolate that trend for ~30 manufacturers what we will see that for people who are looking to buy hatchbacks, saloons and coupes the choice has halved, and in the same time choice for SUVs has increased. Not only that SUV choice was double to begin with...

So if previously there were ~150 models of SUV there are 180 now... and where there were 60 models of coupes it is 30 now. Argument is - those looking for SUVs already had massive choice to choose from, 30 coupes are actually not that many. First of all many of them will be supercar brands - Aston Martin, Ferrari, Porsche ( so not your practical everyday car), then there will be high number of performance cars like GT-R or AMG SLS, then we have cars in ~80k+ price range like LC, BMW 8-Series, Bentley Continental...  so really if you boil it down to "practical coupes" for daily driving which are not weekend toys, or supercars, that choice suddenly is very limited. What do we have left?

BMW 2 and 4 series, MB E and C-Class Coupe, Audi A5 Coupe, Toyota GT86 and Supra, Jaguar-F type and Ford Mustang. That is all - 9 models in total! Lexus will have 6 Models of SUVs alone. I am talking about new cars here, but in 10 years time this will be the choice on used market as well.

 

So Linas your argument is about the lack of a coupe shape not car choice in general, well that helps a lot 👍. I have a XKR coupe and can tell you the lack of 4 doors is a right pain so I don't see how anyone would knowingly make that choice now I know better? And yes, there are about 40 British car brands and perhaps twice that sell here such as Alfa as to what they make I haven't the faintest idea. As a matter of interest how many choices do you think you should have? 

[Phil xxkr]

18 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

Keep it friendly.

3 falls, 2 submissions or a ko, OK 😎

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

So Linas your argument is about the lack of a coupe shape not car choice in general, well that helps a lot 👍. I have a XKR coupe and can tell you the lack of 4 doors is a right pain so I don't see how anyone would knowingly make that choice now I know better? And yes, there are about 40 British car brands and perhaps twice that sell here such as Alfa as to what they make I haven't the faintest idea.

As a matter of interest how many choices do you think you should have? 

Clearly you were not paying attention - the argument was always about ever increasing choice of SUVs and every decreasing choice of every other type. You know if you need torx bit it isn't helpful to have a choice of million hex bits.

Argument is not not about absolute number of choices, but about trend of decreasing choice of other cars compared to SUVs. If there we have 180 models of SUV, then I would argue it would be fair to have similar choice of other body types. Clearly being able to choose from 180 models SUV buyers have far greater choice than coupe buyers choosing from 30 models... 

As for not having rear doors being a pain - it is very personal perspective. Living together with my girlfriend and 90% of the time being in the car alone, this has never been an issue to me. And if somebody is unfortunate enough to have to climb in the back that is their issue not mine 😄 However, having tall car which would make me sick in the corners would be an issue.

If there is one thing I don't understand about Lexus RC/LC... is why they didn't make it "hatchback" like Jaguar XK. this would not sacrifice anything of value, just make the car much more practical, as ten you basically get very usable boot. 

 

[Phil xxkr]

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Clearly you were not paying attention - the argument was always about ever increasing choice of SUVs and every decreasing choice of every other type. You know if you need torx bit it isn't helpful to have a choice of million hex bits.

Argument is not not about absolute number of choices, but about trend of decreasing choice of other cars compared to SUVs. If there we have 180 models of SUV, then I would argue it would be fair to have similar choice of other body types. Clearly being able to choose from 180 models SUV buyers have far greater choice than coupe buyers choosing from 30 models... 

As for not having rear doors being a pain - it is very personal perspective. Living together with my girlfriend and 90% of the time being in the car alone, this has never been an issue to me. And if somebody is unfortunate enough to have to climb in the back that is their issue not mine 😄 However, having tall car which would make me sick in the corners would be an issue.

If there is one thing I don't understand about Lexus RC/LC... is why they didn't make it "hatchback" like Jaguar XK. this would not sacrifice anything of value, just make the car much more practical, as ten you basically get very usable boot. 

 

I admit I prefer to sit, furthest away at the back of the room especially when the content from the person up front is so, how can I put this kindly, well weak 😁 and to introduce the devil's word "fairness" methinks I should be sitting next door! 

[Mincey]

32 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

3 falls, 2 submissions or a ko, OK 😎

This reminds me of Big Daddy, Mick McManus and Giant Haystacks on a Saturday afternoon. There was always an old lady in the front row ready to batter one of them with her handbag...

[royoftherovers]

8 minutes ago, Mincey said:

This reminds me of Big Daddy, Mick McManus and Giant Haystacks on a Saturday afternoon. There was always an old lady in the front row ready to batter one of them with her handbag...

Do not forget Kent Walton.

[dutchie01]

Linas!! Your dreamcar is currently in the works undergoing final testing ! Tadaaaa!!

 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/possible-lexus-uc-sports-car-rendering-is-both-unnerving-and-somewhat-realistic-164235.html#agal_1 

 

( if you ask politely they might even make a hydrogen version for you only?)

[Linas.P]

Honestly, it looks amazing... can't wait to see it UK! Although, we need to agree this does not actually "improve the choice", if I wanted small two seat coupe I could just get Toyota GT86 today. It is same car after all. ( + have absolutely not hope it will happen!)

[Shahpor]

12 hours ago, paulrnx said:

That is not a great comparison. You’ve picked the three door classic mini hatch and the 5 door Mini Countryman. Of course they will be massively different in size because they are not the same class of car.

To be honest, I just did a quick search and pulled a random image from Google.

However, ok, hopefully this is a better comparison for you:

Still rather a big difference I would say.

 

[Spacewagon52]

21 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

To be honest, I just did a quick search and pulled a random image from Google.

However, ok, hopefully this is a better comparison for you:

Still rather a big difference I would say.

 

If the size related to skirt length, I would not be impressed!

[Linas.P]

28 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

To be honest, I just did a quick search and pulled a random image from Google.

However, ok, hopefully this is a better comparison for you:

Still rather a big difference I would say.

 

I was about to say to the last comment - "it does not matter", it is not like 2 door car is much smaller. There was nothing wrong you your precious example - it is just fact that cars got bigger and there are many reasons for it. 

Standard model development is one - company just can't market the new car if it isn't some way better than old one. Having more room inside and in the boot is just one of many ways of how to justify the upgrade - so cars naturally get bigger.

Safety regulations is another reason... competition is yet another one - if MB has bigger boot, then Audi/BMW has to follow. 

Power and speed competition is another one - faster car needs a bigger engine and results needs bigger everything.. wheels, brakes, gearbox, shafts, suspension components, wider tyres... and the cycle continues.

What is important to understand - new mini is not replacement for original mini... it is just a name badge BMW wanted to utilise. If we look at like for like replacement currently for the segment Original mini occupied, then we need to look at cars like Smart or Renault Twingo. Mini is now proper hatchback competing with Golf. That is compact car segment and not super-mini. So comparing the two is a little bit pointless to be fair.

[Las Palmas]

Why we would never buy a SUV is because there are no parking places in the supermarkets, we use to buy things in. There are no parking places for big cars here at all because there are more cars than parking places. I do not want to sit upright in a car, my mother did not like to sit in the Nissan 280ZX, the seat made her lay down she said, she loved sitting in the old hippie-mobile from VW, 1960, I think.

Oh, is the CT a SUV? It is not a sedan or coupé or limousine, so maybe it is a SUV. A tiny one. Low enough to let us see when a real SUV is approaching, as the light from these are high up and blinding a bit. We do not have the need to transport so many things when travelling. Have no pets and like to buy vegetables fresh from small markets, where the carrots, potatoes etc. are taken out of the earth in the morning, sold same day, and if we buy a lot of vegetables, they would get as old as those we could have bought in supermarket where we live before they would be eaten.

In the good old days, (maybe because we were younger) we were driving round visiting family and friends all over Europe in 2-seaters, Opel GT (nur fliegen ist schöner), Matra Baghera, Honda CRX, Toyota MR2 both 1^sts. gen. and later MR2 Spyder, after that a Smart Roadster. All of these with room for not much more than toothbrushes, and we could not understand why people came to hotels with much luggage. In the restaurants we did not look like most, we were in jeans and some looked like going to royal balls in their uncomfortable stiff outfits.

A SUV is for people who like a SUV and a little car is for people that like a little car and we should all be accepting each other.

[royoftherovers]

10 hours ago, Shahpor said:

To be honest, I just did a quick search and pulled a random image from Google.

However, ok, hopefully this is a better comparison for you:

Still rather a big difference I would say.

 

Shahpor, do not rise to his bait so quickly.

Surely one exaggerated for the sake of emphasis ?

[Shahpor]

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Shahpor, do not rise to his bait so quickly.

Surely one exaggerated for the sake of emphasis ?

No, it was a fair point - if you are going to do a comparison then it should be a close to like for like as possible.  I was just being lazy the first time 🙂