A big surprise ?

[royoftherovers]

59 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

I bought my first MPV and subsequent SUV’s for the dog!

You teach the dog to drive DAVEY ?

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

When talking about SUV s the discussion is mainly about the size, the weight and maybe the intimidating presence. Well, lets not forget normal cars that through the years have grown considerably in size as well.

I came up to a trafficlight the other day and next to me was a classic Mercedes S class from the seventies/eighties. I was shocked by how small it was and remember, this was propably one of the biggest cars on the market in its days! Ever compared a corsa from 1990 to the current one? Or a peugeot 206 from 30 yrs ago to todays equivalent? Not comparable at all. One explanation is safetyregulation that makes cars grow in size but another factor is that people just want bigger cars. More practical and safer feeling. I would even go as for in saying that if the original Vauxhall Corsa would be on offer it would simply be ignored. Requirements have moved on.

 

Mercedes Benz W109 300 SEL 6.3 Size, 1970   Body :                                  Sedan Num. of Doors :                  4 Wheelbase :                       286.5 cm or 112.8 inches Length :                               500 cm or 196.85 inches Width :                                181 cm or 71.26 inches Height :                               142 cm or 55.91 inches                              Mercedes Benz E Class (W213 2021) 63 S AMG 4MATIC+ Size, Dimensions, 2021 Body :                                  Sedan Num. of Doors :                  4 Wheelbase :                       293.9 cm or 115.71 inches Length :                               493.5 cm or 194.29 inches Width :                                185.2 cm or 72.91 inches Height :                               146.8 cm or 57.8 inches   Does not seem that much smaller to me. The one we had is a bit less wide, but longer.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Rabbers said:

appeal to people’s worst instincts?

I would not say "worst", but vehicle is status symbol for some or many people. Meaning the bigger and shinier it is the more presence on the street it has and thus it is more of the status and more intimidating.

I really doubt mom taking her boys to football is really going to be a big bully on the road, but the size of something like this really makes everyone around less comfortable, almost looks like different size scale models:

On the point of car sizes... Yes models have became bigger in general, but importantly we need to note that British in particular were micro car nation, European, Australian and especially amurican cars have always been bigger, roads and parking wider and maybe only Japanese K-cars were the size we used to have here, but importantly K-cars are exceptional thing in Japan, not a normal car. So it much more shocking for British how big the cars are, but much less shocking for rest of the world, as far as amuricans are concerned European cars are still kind of small... 

Almost looks like X7 suddenly is small when next to amurican truck

[Spacewagon52]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

You teach the dog to drive DAVEY ?

Joking all aside John, I taught my old dog to read! If I can find it I will post the video!

[Phil xxkr]

13 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Please don't misunderstand me; I meant no disrespect for the choices that you or your partner have made.  Everyone is entitled to their views and choices irrespective of the reasoning behind it, and I am sure you are both happy with yours.  I also didn't mean to imply that people don't know what they want with their cars, merely that perhaps there is an alternate perspective that hasn't been considered.

Phil, have you forgotten the teachings of Mr Spock?!?! 🙂

I am a little confused as the logic in my statement was choice?

Also, offering a counterpoint to reason is a basis for discussion, it is not necessarily saying that the reasoning itself is unsound.

Or, as Aristotle would say, a single assertion must always either affirm or deny a single predicate of a single subject.  Hence my breaking down the argument into individual components.

Lastly, since the major premise in this case is the advocation of choice, the outcome must surely follow a logical conclusion?

Either way, we are dangerous close to starting a philosophical debate rather than the discussion of why cars are so big now 🙂

As I recall from many moons ago Aristotle referred to a proposition and not an assertion which I believe is the latter in your case. I give way on Mr. Spock? Startrek or Dr Spock's treatise on children? Easy to get in and out; on which you make a personal assertion as to efficacy. I drive a Jaguar XKR about the same footprint as my 450h, ingress and egress? Absolutely no contest especially with the retractable steering wheel (in both cases). Better driving position again, another personal assertion that the benefits are insignificant. More space for the family; more assertions, where are the volumetrics to support the X6 was less than cars much smaller? Because she wanted one, at last, you agree it's reasonable logic but then go on to dispute it with the implication choice is not reasonable logic. If so should people be allowed the exercise the principle of choice? And should these ideas apply to other aspects of life, for example houses, TV's, First-class travel,? 

 

[Rabbers]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I really doubt mom taking her boys to football is really going to be a big bully….

Disagree. Just watch the moms in SUVs jostling for space when delivering or picking up their kids in front of any school.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

Disagree. Just watch the moms in SUVs jostling for space when delivering or picking up their kids in front of any school.

That is true, and not being completely focused on driving... but that only affects other moms (and some fathers) who are likely to all have SUVs... Don't really affects other motorists all the way to where they going, only the last bit by the stadiums 😄

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

I`ve no personal experience of S.U.V type vehicles, but I `m informed that they are expensive to buy and lose a lot in depreciation as trade in values plummet.

Can anyone offer a view across the range of manufacturers ?

Its variable. Porsche for example seem to have very good residuals on their SUV range. Even within Lexus, the NX and RX have good residuals. I recently calculated my RX has cost me £385 a month in depreciation which I personally think is quite good over 5 years and 40k miles. Ive used WBAC values and I got £6k off list price. 

The GS450h cost about the same at that point in time but the values are much lower despite having lower mileage.

36 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

Disagree. Just watch the moms in SUVs jostling for space when delivering or picking up their kids in front of any school.

The jostling you mention would happen regardless of whether they were driving an SUV or a standard hatchback. Bad driving is one thing, the type of car one has is something entirely different

[Rabbers]

3 minutes ago, rayaans said:

The jostling you mention would happen regardless of whether they were driving an SUV or a standard hatchback. Bad driving is one thing, the type of car one has is something entirely different

Suggest you try and park outside a school at go-home time and see if you are more nervous in the vicinity of a mom in a Smart or one in a Q5.  Fail to see why you state the obvious and say that the quality of driving has no relation to the type of car, or have you experience to the contrary? 

[Linas.P]

32 minutes ago, rayaans said:

The jostling you mention would happen regardless of whether they were driving an SUV or a standard hatchback. Bad driving is one thing, the type of car one has is something entirely different

Agree, but don't you think being in SUV makes occupants feeling psychologically superior i.e. they feel they can push smaller cars around and in reverse, somebody in small car feels vulnerable and thinks of how they can become better at that i.e. getting large car themselves... which then impacts their buying decisions? 

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

As I recall from many moons ago Aristotle referred to a proposition and not an assertion which I believe is the latter in your case. I give way on Mr. Spock? Startrek or Dr Spock's treatise on children? Easy to get in and out; on which you make a personal assertion as to efficacy. I drive a Jaguar XKR about the same footprint as my 450h, ingress and egress? Absolutely no contest especially with the retractable steering wheel (in both cases). Better driving position again, another personal assertion that the benefits are insignificant. More space for the family; more assertions, where are the volumetrics to support the X6 was less than cars much smaller? Because she wanted one, at last, you agree it's reasonable logic but then go on to dispute it with the implication choice is not reasonable logic. If so should people be allowed the exercise the principle of choice? And should these ideas apply to other aspects of life, for example houses, TV's, First-class travel,? 

 

I suspect we are getting into the nitty gritty of something that is perhaps not relevant to the general aim of this thread, but ok, one more go.

The line between proposition and assertion is a fine one that is very easy to confuse in any lengthy written discussion.

So, accounting for that, if I were to have phrased my views as ideas rather than opinions, would the validity of the points raise increase?

As for the principle of choice, that is an entirely different discussion that I don't think would fit into this thread, especially when you start considering the individual freedoms versus the collective good and the minutiae that that entails.

[Phil xxkr]

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

You teach the dog to drive DAVEY ?

No John, didn't he say he was a driving instructor 🤣

[rayaans]

42 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

Suggest you try and park outside a school at go-home time and see if you are more nervous in the vicinity of a mom in a Smart or one in a Q5.  Fail to see why you state the obvious and say that the quality of driving has no relation to the type of car, or have you experience to the contrary? 

Like I said makes no difference what car they're driving. The nervousness relates to the way that they are driving. Whether they drive a GLS or a Smart has absolutely no relevance. More often than not, its the smaller cars that have the scrapes on them

[serbarry]

19 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 

Finally regarding extra tax for SUV... So we making big deal of ICE cars and goverment is hell bent to ban them and motorists are demonised for ruining the environment? Right? But long term studies shows that BEV cars like for like are just about 30% better for environment than ICE cars on average. Yet SUVs are generally 30% worse than normal car with same engine... don't you think it is strange that nobody has problem with this? And by all means - I appreciate that some people have valid reasons to own SUV... I am just talking about the majority who don't actually need one, but still buys one because "they want one". Perhaps if there would be meaningful extra charge people would at least consider if they actually need SUV before buying? Same like I consider whenever I want that 5L V8 car and do I really need it, because it will cost me extra £300 a year to tax. Maybe there is something else which would meet my needs without costing extra money... That is why I would support it. 

Just to give you an example of motor tax in Ireland for some SUVs:

2019 RX450H pays 280 euros and costs 67,950 euros

2007 RX400H pays 1,809 euros and costs 3,750 euros

2008 RX400H pays 1,250 euros and costs 6,500 euros

2021 NX300H pays 420 euros and costs 54,250 euros

2017 NX300H pays 270 euros and costs 36,900 euros

2020 X5 pays 790 euros and costs 107,950 euros

2008 X5 pays 1,250 euros and costs 9,550 euros

2020 Q7 pays 790 euros and costs 95,950 euros

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Joking all aside John, I taught my old dog to read! If I can find it I will post the video!

Now that I must see Davey.

[Linas.P]

39 minutes ago, serbarry said:

Just to give you an example of motor tax in Ireland for some SUVs:

2019 RX450H pays 280 euros and costs 67,950 euros

2007 RX400H pays 1,809 euros and costs 3,750 euros

2008 RX400H pays 1,250 euros and costs 6,500 euros

2021 NX300H pays 420 euros and costs 54,250 euros

2017 NX300H pays 270 euros and costs 36,900 euros

2020 X5 pays 790 euros and costs 107,950 euros

2008 X5 pays 1,250 euros and costs 9,550 euros

2020 Q7 pays 790 euros and costs 95,950 euros

How is that comparing to normal cars? Would NX pay more than IS, or RX more than GS?

[Rabbers]

49 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Like I said makes no difference what car they're driving. The nervousness relates to the way that they are driving. Whether they drive a GLS or a Smart has absolutely no relevance. …

Got it.  Size doesn’t matter.

[serbarry]

46 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

How is that comparing to normal cars? Would NX pay more than IS, or RX more than GS?

2020 IS300H pays 190 euros and costs 44,900 euros

2016 GS450H pays 400 euros and costs 34,995

2015 GS300H pays 190 euros and costs 24,950 euros

2006 GS450H pays 1,809 euros and costs 2,650

2008 GS450H pays 790 euros and costs 9,950 euros (but there is another one from a private for 8,000 euros).

To conclude: my 2004 Prius pays 413 euros and it is worth maybe 1,200 euros (maybe a bit more). It does not really make sense that somebody who can afford a new RX450H pays less than my Prius and on the other hand somebody who wants to buy a 2006 GS450H for only 2,650 euros must pay 1,809 euros in motor tax.

It does not make sense either that the new or recent Lexus models pay less than the older models when they cost a lot more. This is the absurdity of our politicians.  

[Linas.P]

Yes tax seems to be all over the place ... like for example why 2008 GS450h would be half the price in tax compared to 2006 GS450h. Both have same engine and same CO2... I guess justification for newer car to pay less tax because they "on paper" have lower CO2, still does not explain why same car from different year is so much different. 

In other hand seems like IS300h is much cheaper to tax than NX300h, which would seem logical, but then this trend is reversed with GS vs RX... just so inconsistent. 

[serbarry]

16 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Yes tax seems to be all over the place ... like for example why 2008 GS450h would be half the price in tax compared to 2006 GS450h. Both have same engine and same CO2... I guess justification for newer car to pay less tax because they "on paper" have lower CO2, still does not explain why same car from different year is so much different. 

In other hand seems like IS300h is much cheaper to tax than NX300h, which would seem logical, but then this trend is reversed with GS vs RX... just so inconsistent. 

The reason is that the new system for calculating the motor tax rates was introduced in 2008 (and after modified in 2020): all cars registered until the 31st December 2007 pay according to the engine size while all cars registered from 1st January 2008 onwards pay according to the emissions. This explains the difference between 2006 and 2008 GS and 2004 and 2008 Prius which only pays 160 euros with the same emissions as mine. The absurdity of these criteria is that they do not consider the value of the car through the years and the result is that on the second hand market today there are plenty of Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Lexus, and other premium cars with big engines registered before 2008 in good conditions which cost relatively very little (after all they are 15-16-17 year old cars) but that nobody buys because of the crazy motor tax rates.   This Cayenne below is an example but actually there are cheaper than that

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/porsche/cayenne/fpa/201807288889166?journey=Search

Honda Legend

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/honda/legend/fpa/202002177418185?journey=Search

GS 300

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/lexus/gs300/fpa/202107064694081?journey=Search

[Mincey]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 

 

That X7 has the most hideous front end I think I've ever seen. It is like someone has stuck those grilles on instead of designing them in. Absolutely foul.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Mincey said:

That X7 has the most hideous front end I think I've ever seen. It is like someone has stuck those grilles on instead of designing them in. Absolutely foul.

I was told this is mainly for Chinese and middle-eastern markets where they like excessive opulence... and where MB/BMW/Audi sells most of their cars nowadays. 

In other hand I think it is personal test thing, I don't like any SUVs so I don't like X7 either, but that is because I don't like any of them. If I would have to choose between RX-L or X7... I am not sure I probably still go with RX, but for other reasons than looks. I don't find Audi particularly better in that aspect either:

 

[Alan305]

I’d also factor in age. When I was young, a long time ago, I had Triumph Spitfires and MG Midgets, then a range of company cars with limited choice. Then kids so Renault Espace was perfect. Then business needed an estate for computer kit. Then big mileages so LS400 and 430 were great cruisers. Then mid life crisis with Camaro and Corvette. Now bigger mid life crisis with Westfield. Moved from IS to GS to IS to NX and happy with them all.

So choice changes as family requirements change. I believe choice is wider because of PCP with many only funding half the car. That’s driven prices higher but increased choice.

At present I find the NX slightly easier to get into and out of than the IS, hence the choice.

[paulrnx]

I don’t understand it. Drive what you want to drive and have some empathy with people who want to drive something else.

[paulrnx]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:16 AM, Shahpor said:

This is an interesting perspective and not one widely considered I think.  It would tie in to the whole status symbol ideology that has already been mentioned.   I am not saying it is correct, but there is something to be said about human nature 🙂

Excellent reason to buy an SVU!

I think this image highlights what you are talking about well:

That is not a great comparison. You’ve picked the three door classic mini hatch and the 5 door Mini Countryman. Of course they will be massively different in size because they are not the same class of car.