A big surprise ?

[NemesisUK]

A company that follows consumer choice is forever chasing business having to constantly catch-up. A company that drives consumer choice will be ahead of the curve, with plenty of time to develop the next 'big thing' the public don't yet know they want..

[dutchie01]

At least you have selfknowledge Linas ( but it makes no sense what you say really..)

Many moons ago a designer once told me the tragic of a true sports car is that it is a young mans car but they cant afford it. When they have money the autumn of life has come and the buy one but no longer have the abilities to drive them as intended.

[dutchie01]

7 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

A company that follows consumer choice is forever chasing business having to constantly catch-up. A company that drives consumer choice will be ahead of the curve, with plenty of time to develop the next 'big thing' the public don't yet know they want..

walking a thin line here. new cardesign takes 3 to 4 years and tooling designing ramping up a car plant another 2 to3. Investment can be horrific thus a mistake killing. Cardesign nowadays is incredibly complicated and before signed off on all levels a solid businesscase needs to be proven.

[NemesisUK]

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

walking a thin line here. new cardesign takes 3 to 4 years and tooling designing ramping up a car plant another 2 to3. Investment can be horrific thus a mistake killing. Cardesign nowadays is incredibly complicated and before signed off on all levels a solid businesscase needs to be proven.

Indeed, so business must drive demand, not the other way round ..

[Shahpor]

2 hours ago, RichGS11 said:

It's not a personal attack by any means, I am perfectly happy with my place in this world and very secure in myself, but as much as you have replies for the reasons why my other half prefers SUV's, these are ultimately your views, which aren't the same as my partner. I also never stated the SUV she purchased which does tick the boxes stated above and is bigger than a UX. With a poorly hip, an SUV with the seat sitting just at the right height enables her to get in and out with ease, my ISF and any saloondoes not offer this. The car in questions is also considerably bigger than my ISF so it is bigger for the family and as for driving position on the road, higher is better for some. I drive a fire engine for a living and I know exactly why I higher seating position can be more favourable to some, of which she is one of those that likes to sit higher.

As I say, it's all personal preference. I own an ISF which drinks petrol, something of which most would dislike, it also has ridiculously high VED which again, some would dislike, but we buy the cars we want for ourselves and our own needs. Implying that people buy cars but they ultimately don't know what it is they want, is a bit of a stretch in your point, because that would imply justifying your own choice in a car is useless as you too don't know what you want 

Please don't misunderstand me; I meant no disrespect for the choices that you or your partner have made.  Everyone is entitled to their views and choices irrespective of the reasoning behind it, and I am sure you are both happy with yours.  I also didn't mean to imply that people don't know what they want with their cars, merely that perhaps there is an alternate perspective that hasn't been considered.

2 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Because you want one of anything isn't logic it's called choice. And because we live in the democratic West we get to exercise that ability to choose. The more you seek to delegitimise a person's reasons for choice you are essentially saying your reasoning is unsound therefore you shouldn't have individual choice but one that is given to you.  And, in my humble opinion, shows an unfortunate modern trait of being overly competitive, that only used to be seen on the Apprentice but now it appears its seeped into one's choice of vehicle, quelle horreur 😱. I am also intrigued by the use of the word logic since even a cursory knowledge of Aristotilian syllogisms would show the fallacies in most people's arguments 😎

Phil, have you forgotten the teachings of Mr Spock?!?! 🙂

I am a little confused as the logic in my statement was choice?

Also, offering a counterpoint to reason is a basis for discussion, it is not necessarily saying that the reasoning itself is unsound.

Or, as Aristotle would say, a single assertion must always either affirm or deny a single predicate of a single subject.  Hence my breaking down the argument into individual components.

Lastly, since the major premise in this case is the advocation of choice, the outcome must surely follow a logical conclusion?

Either way, we are dangerous close to starting a philosophical debate rather than the discussion of why cars are so big now 🙂

[rayaans]

10 hours ago, Shahpor said:

What is wrong with people today 🙄

As someone who prefers saloon and hatchback cars, I can't understand the desire from people for tall, bigger cars.  I don't blame the manufacturers since they are only reacting to demand, but it is a shame that 'normal' cars are disappearing fast.

No offense intended, but the size of RX's, BMW X5's and Audi Q5's are bordering on the ridiculous now and there is just no need for such a large car.

The old highway code used to say to look through the car in front to see any potential hazards before they are too close, but that is not possible in my GS now.  Not to mention the parking problem as they are sometimes too big to fit in a single bay.

Back on topic, this stems from the article claiming that this new car is to be considered 'tiny', which demonstrates the sad stat of affairs.

Yes there is a need for such a large car. 

Just because you dont need one, doesnt mean others dont. I have a family of 5, two of which are teenagers. Try getting their luggage into a GS and see what happens!

Besides - something like the GS is about the same footprint as the RX anyway, yet the RX can fit a lot more into it.

On top of that, a Q5 is actually smaller than a GS - so for someone owning a large car, your response doesnt really make much sense.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Besides - something like the GS is about the same footprint as the RX anyway, yet the RX can fit a lot more into it.

I doubt fuel consumption would be the same, so running GS with only 2 people in it is less of an issue than doing same in RX.

As well you own both RX and IS, meaning you had reasons to buy both larger SUV (and I am sure you have good reason for it) and smaller saloon. However, the future seems like you will have to have RX and NX... seems like an issue to me, maybe not an issue for you. 

So when we say it is people choice I think we actually mean "illusion of choice". When on the market 85% of new models are SUVs, it doesn't take genius to guess that 85% of sales will be SUVs... or at least significantly higher number than it would have been if only 30% of offers would be for SUVs. 

[Shahpor]

7 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Yes there is a need for such a large car. 

Just because you dont need one, doesnt mean others dont. I have a family of 5, two of which are teenagers. Try getting their luggage into a GS and see what happens!

Besides - something like the GS is about the same footprint as the RX anyway, yet the RX can fit a lot more into it.

On top of that, a Q5 is actually smaller than a GS - so for someone owning a large car, your response doesnt really make much sense.

Rayaan, you seemed to have taken my opinion badly.  Just like your supposition, I have just as much right to air my views.

As I have already stipulated in my previous posts in this thread, yes, there are genuine needs for people with health conditions to have taller cars, but this doesn't appear to represent the majority.

Also, there seems to be confusion on the subject of need.  Does someone who has a bad leg or hip need something bigger?  Yes.  Do you need one because you have a family of 5?  No, you can buy an estate car.  My dad didn't have a problem doing that with his old Mercedes 200T estate when my brother's and I were younger.  Again, I would like to point out that I am not say you don't have the right to buy one, just that the word need is a little strong in this case.

It is also interesting that you specifically singled out the Q5 even though I mentioned others.  Perhaps that was a mistake on my part, but I was generalising and just listed those cars off the top of my head.  What about the X5? It is longer, wider and significantly taller than my GS.

How about we take some other examples?  There are many to choose from, but they include the Audi Q7, Volvo XC90, BMW X7, etc...Would comparing my car to these make more sense, especially as we are talking overall size, not just length or width? 

[dutchie01]

41 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

 

 

Either way, we are dangerous close to starting a philosophical debate rather than the discussion of why cars are so big now 🙂

Is driving a big thirsty SUV ethical ?

[doog442]

3 hours ago, Shahpor said:

because she wanted one - And here we reach the crux of the issue.  One of the main reason I think people choose these cars is because they want one.  In isolation this seems like a reasonable logic, but it doesn't take into account the various factors that we have already discussed on this thread about how it affects other road users.  Also, to quote a tired cliché - "Would you give whiskey to an alcoholic?"  The obvious implication being that wanting something is sometimes not a good enough reason in itself.

Now this looks like a personal attack against you Richard, but I assure you it is not.  I am just bored and been wanting to unload this on the forum as soon as the opportunity allowed for it, which you so kindly provided 🙂

I have full permission from the better half to buy an RX450h...because I have a bad back. The newer the better.

I don't quite have the same enthusiasm from said better half to spend the same amount on an RCF...work that one out 

I'm a saloon / coupe guy, the kids have gone but without doubt car manufacturers have fed into something that attracts the fairer s*x. It might not just be the ability to load kids in and out of it but a higher sitting position, more presence on the road per chance ?..Kudos on the odd occasion I guess. 

I live near a private school. The daily procession is school run mums in big expensive SUV's driving very fast. 

 

[rayaans]

35 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I doubt fuel consumption would be the same, so running GS with only 2 people in it is less of an issue than doing same in RX.

As well you own both RX and IS, meaning you had reasons to buy both larger SUV (and I am sure you have good reason for it) and smaller saloon. However, the future seems like you will have to have RX and NX... seems like an issue to me, maybe not an issue for you. 

So when we say it is people choice I think we actually mean "illusion of choice". When on the market 85% of new models are SUVs, it doesn't take genius to guess that 85% of sales will be SUVs... or at least significantly higher number than it would have been if only 30% of offers would be for SUVs. 

Fuel consumption difference is negligible between a GS450h and an RX450h. I no longer have the IS, we've got a UXe

29 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Rayaan, you seemed to have taken my opinion badly.  Just like your supposition, I have just as much right to air my views.

As I have already stipulated in my previous posts in this thread, yes, there are genuine needs for people with health conditions to have taller cars, but this doesn't appear to represent the majority.

Also, there seems to be confusion on the subject of need.  Does someone who has a bad leg or hip need something bigger?  Yes.  Do you need one because you have a family of 5?  No, you can buy an estate car.  My dad didn't have a problem doing that with his old Mercedes 200T estate when my brother's and I were younger.  Again, I would like to point out that I am not say you don't have the right to buy one, just that the word need is a little strong in this case.

It is also interesting that you specifically singled out the Q5 even though I mentioned others.  Perhaps that was a mistake on my part, but I was generalising and just listed those cars off the top of my head.  What about the X5? It is longer, wider and significantly taller than my GS.

How about we take some other examples?  There are many to choose from, but they include the Audi Q7, Volvo XC90, BMW X7, etc...Would comparing my car to these make more sense, especially as we are talking overall size, not just length or width? 

There's a huge difference between estates and SUV's. Firstly, the transmission tunnel in estates is much larger than in an SUV, the RX in fact, doesnt even have one

The X5 is marginally longer than a GS. If we think about the ES, the X5 is actually shorter. I dont understand why having a taller vehicle is such an issue. They give better visibility, they're actually easier to park than a traditional saloon because of this in my opinion. 

Dont forget, the average human is much larger than they were 10-20 years ago

Additionally, last time I checked, the Q7, XC90 and X7 can carry 7 people. I dont believe the GS does this. Completely different markets and I understand why if you have more than 5 people in the family, a large SUV like this would be appealing. 

[Shahpor]

19 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Is driving a big thirsty SUV ethical ?

What's that over there Bernard?  It is a can with worms written on it 🙂

6 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I have full permission from the better half to buy an RX450h...because I have a bad back. The newer the better.

I don't quite have the same enthusiasm from said better half to spend the same amount on an RCF...work that one out 

I'm a saloon / coupe guy, the kids have gone but without doubt car manufacturers have fed into something that attracts the fairer s*x. It might not just be the ability to load kids in and out of it but a higher sitting position, more presence on the road per chance ?..Kudos on the odd occasion I guess. 

I live near a private school. The daily procession is school run mums in big expensive SUV's driving very fast. 

 

Succinctly put and certainly what I witnessed when I worked at a private school in Ascot.

3 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Fuel consumption difference is negligible between a GS450h and an RX450h. I no longer have the IS, we've got a UXe

There's a huge difference between estates and SUV's. Firstly, the transmission tunnel in estates is much larger than in an SUV, the RX in fact, doesnt even have one

The X5 is marginally longer than a GS. If we think about the ES, the X5 is actually shorter. I dont understand why having a taller vehicle is such an issue. They give better visibility, they're actually easier to park than a traditional saloon because of this in my opinion. 

Dont forget, the average human is much larger than they were 10-20 years ago

Like I said before, it is general size, not just length.

From a general perspective, they offer worse visibility and parking availability for other road users, which is what the issue surrounds.

Technically though, the topic kicked off because for people like myself who don't like big SVU's, the choice of car is being limited because of the production of the many SVU's by manufacturers.

[paulrnx]

Why can’t people just buy an SUV because they have chosen to? Why can’t people buy saloons because they have chosen to? It’s a free world last time I looked and people have a right to buy what they want. To ask people to justify why they have bought a particular style of car just because you  don’t agree with that choice is ridiculous. By you I mean anyone who might rubbish someone else for their choice of car. I couldn’t give a fig whether someone disagrees with my choice of an SUV. It’s irrelevant because it’s my money, my choice and it is a choice I’m free to make. I’m happy for those that wouldn’t ever choose an SUV too because it’s their right to choose whatever they want. Of course not buying an SUV is a mistake.....

[paulrnx]

And that last sentence was a joke. I know how serious some can be on here when they spot something on the internet that isn’t in line with their own views and beliefs 🤣

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But what is then left for young people? Or their needs don't matter? 

As well I guess one needs to experience fast drive, harsh suspension and "hard" to get-into coupes before they can really appreciate the "comfort" of the SUV? 

No problem that young people want to have fun. Do crazy things and get adrenalin pumping. Soft suspension makes me fall asleep when driving and the CT is not that soft. Hard to get into or hard to climb up in or hard to lay down in; not for me. Lancia EVO 2 with roll over cage etc. was for some young people hard to get into and out of.

Do not think many 25 - 30 years old could climb from sea level to peak of the mountain here faster than I on a mountain-bike when I was 70. Passed many sitting on the grass while going up. My bike partner was ex. pro, 15 years younger. Nowhere on the island a bike could not take us.

Stopped to go out in daytime when skin cancer tumour no. 4 was removed after advice from doctor, so no longer fit as before.

And no SUV or BEV is coming in our family as long as I am driving. The CT is not ideal but less polluting than the Diesel Golf we had. And it was my wife that wanted it.

In family we have a Porsche enthusiast and none of the rather low cars are difficult to get in. A little hard to out and up of the lowest; but can still without help.

I think that a good combustion engine hydrogen powered car is what you need and I would appreciate it if you invite me for a tour in it. If a fuel cell it could be OK too, but an old motor-head want the sound of a real engine, and if almost not polluting it will be no problem for me. I do not mind driving fast, but hate to damage the environment more than we have done. When I was young and crazy with speed nobody talked about environment. That is a poor excuse but it is true that I had no idea what would happen. Now thinking of younger family members, I am sorry for what we have done wrong and try to tell others to make fewer mistakes than we did. Those that say climate change is not something we have made or contributed to are idiots.

Some of the cars we used had problems driving 5km on 1 litre, a friend of mine told me that the exhaust was spitting out 2DM pieces. Fastest I have been driving outside Germany was almost 300km/h in France; did not get caught.

Here guys in terrain motor bikes were testing their skill and I was trying to follow them when going down (up I could not follow); there I blew first a FOX rear suspension seal so all way down it was not a mountain bike but a rocking chair. Next tour there With a RockShox replacement I blew a seal again; It was still almost functioning, but leaking oil.

You are not the only crazy here in the forum.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Dont forget, the average human is much larger than they were 10-20 years ago

100-200 years ago yes... the only way in which people became bigger in last 20 years is that they probably became fatter 😄 (for a fact since ~1960 people are actually getting shorter)

...as well probably time to update your profile 👍

MPG will as well heavily depend on the speed you doing... more so in SUV than it is in saloon.

40 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Why can’t people buy saloons because they have chosen to? 

Maybe because none are made? Or at very least soon there will be none...

Apart of that I don't have an issue that people buy SUVs... What I have an issue with is that Lexus will release another useless crossover when they already have crossover (UX) and they have what globally would be considered small-SUV as well (NX). Why would they need to release yet another SUV to the market is beyond me... and to be fair I would not give a fig if they wouldn't have just discontinued basically entire range of their cars - Coupe, two Saloons and one Hatchback. Even before that their line-up was overly skewed towards SUVs i.e. they had 5x SUV, 4 Saloons (technically 1 was limo), 2 Coupes and 1 Hatchback (although LX and GX can be considered proper off-roaders). In short half of their range were already SUVs.. now this has changed to ration of 6, 2, 1, 0... and they have no entry level cars at all, only SUVs. Seems to me they may as well find another name for themselves like Suxus or something, because they are becoming SUV company. 

Other thing to note - as I said I am actually trying to convince my father to get NX next time, because as far as SUVs goes it is rather good one. However, anything smaller than NX... aren't really benefiting from those SUV "benefits" because Utility part of it is just gone... sure they call them crossovers whatever that suppose to mean (car which pretend to be off-roader, but isn't). 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

What's that over there Bernard?  It is a can with worms written on it 🙂

Succinctly put and certainly what I witnessed when I worked at a private school in Ascot.

Like I said before, it is general size, not just length.

From a general perspective, they offer worse visibility and parking availability for other road users, which is what the issue surrounds.

Technically though, the topic kicked off because for people like myself who don't like big SVU's, the choice of car is being limited because of the production of the many SVU's by manufacturers.

Well there in lies the issue. Vans, trucks and buses still exist regardless of how many SUVs are on the road so in the grand scheme of things probably wouldn't matter much in terms of outright visibility.

There are still plenty of saloons out there. A6, E-class, 5 series, XF, G70 etc. But the market isn't going that way. SUVs are capable of singlehandedly reviving companies. We've seen that with Porsche and more recently Aston Martin.

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

100-200 years ago yes... the only way in which people became bigger in last 20 years is that they probably became fatter 😄 (for a fact since ~1960 people are actually getting shorter)

...as well probably time to update your profile 👍

MPG will as well heavily depend on the speed you doing... more so in SUV than it is in saloon.

Maybe because none are made? Or at very least soon there will be none...

Apart of that I don't have an issue that people buy SUVs... What I have an issue with is that Lexus will release another useless crossover when they already have crossover (UX) and they have what globally would be considered small-SUV as well (NX). Why would they need to release yet another SUV to the market is beyond me... and to be fair I would not give a fig if they wouldn't have just discontinued basically entire range of their cars - Coupe, two Saloons and one Hatchback. Even before that their line-up was overly skewed towards SUVs i.e. they had 5x SUV, 4 Saloons (technically 1 was limo), 2 Coupes and 1 Hatchback (although LX and GX can be considered proper off-roaders). In short half of their range were already SUVs.. now this has changed to ration of 6, 2, 1, 0... and they have no entry level cars at all, only SUVs. Seems to me they may as well find another name for themselves like Suxus or something, because they are becoming SUV company. 

Other thing to note - as I said I am actually trying to convince my father to get NX next time, because as far as SUVs goes it is rather good one. However, anything smaller than NX... aren't really benefiting from those SUV "benefits" because Utility part of it is just gone... sure they call them crossovers whatever that suppose to mean (car which pretend to be off-roader, but isn't). 

That's exactly what I meant when I said 20 years but let's just say..... I was being polite.

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, rayaans said:

That's exactly what I meant when I said 20 years but let's just say..... I was being polite.

😄 little bit of fat shaming is always healthy!

[RichGS11]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But then why you feel the need to justify anything and everything.

It's a forum where people with different opinions and viewpoints come together to discuss them. Just in the same way you will reply to this comment with your own justification....

I don't have an SUV or own one, the one I am discussing is my partners. I am not justifying its purchase because it was purchased solely by her. I am only highlighting why it was purchased and the needs and wants of the person buying it. I'm surprised I am having to explain this but one should never assume intelligence or the understanding of others.

Anyway.....It's clear that there is a bias against SUV's by some and a frustration because there are more and more on the market, but that I am affraid is something those frustrated are just going to have to get over. Needs and wants change often in this day and age and I certainly would never have the audacity to question someone's purchase because of my own views. But the world is generally an unhappier place nowadays so the feeling of self importance is greater than the need to understand that some people are just different. Being that my partner is a senior global marketing manager I will let her know that the reason she has the car she does is purely down to marketing, and that she doesn't really want it. She'll appreciate the humour in that as do I just reading some of the replies.

[Rabbers]

The inches noticeably being added to the length and width of many saloons is no more than a natural but largely ineffectual market response to the vastly increased invasion of our roads by SUVs and other voluminous vehicles such as vans, mini-trucks, people-carriers, etc.  The smaller the saloon, the less comfortable and secure its driver feels when an SUV looms menacingly in his rear-view mirror or pulls up alongside stealing his daylight.  And the bulkier and more powerful the SUV, the greater is the likelihood that its driver, who may normally be the nicest and mildest of people, will momentarily take on the characteristics of a bully and enjoy the feeling.  Could it be, therefore, that the popularity of SUVs rests, in some measure and independently of any merits they might objectively offer, on their appeal to people’s worst instincts?

[Spacewagon52]

I bought my first MPV and subsequent SUV’s for the dog!

[royoftherovers]

I`ve no personal experience of S.U.V type vehicles, but I `m informed that they are expensive to buy and lose a lot in depreciation as trade in values plummet.

Can anyone offer a view across the range of manufacturers ?

[royoftherovers]

This would have been an excellent topic to have witnessed the benefits of sequential numbering of individual postings.

[dutchie01]

When talking about SUV s the discussion is mainly about the size, the weight and maybe the intimidating presence. Well, lets not forget normal cars that through the years have grown considerably in size as well.

I came up to a trafficlight the other day and next to me was a classic Mercedes S class from the seventies/eighties. I was shocked by how small it was and remember, this was propably one of the biggest cars on the market in its days! Ever compared a corsa from 1990 to the current one? Or a peugeot 206 from 30 yrs ago to todays equivalent? Not comparable at all. One explanation is safetyregulation that makes cars grow in size but another factor is that people just want bigger cars. More practical and safer feeling. I would even go as for in saying that if the original Vauxhall Corsa would be on offer it would simply be ignored. Requirements have moved on.

 

[Shahpor]

50 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

The inches noticeably being added to the length and width of many saloons is no more than a natural but largely ineffectual market response to the vastly increased invasion of our roads by SUVs and other voluminous vehicles such as vans, mini-trucks, people-carriers, etc.  The smaller the saloon, the less comfortable and secure its driver feels when an SUV looms menacingly in his rear-view mirror or pulls up alongside stealing his daylight.  And the bulkier and more powerful the SUV, the greater is the likelihood that its driver, who may normally be the nicest and mildest of people, will momentarily take on the characteristics of a bully and enjoy the feeling.  Could it be, therefore, that the popularity of SUVs rests, in some measure and independently of any merits they might objectively offer, on their appeal to people’s worst instincts?

This is an interesting perspective and not one widely considered I think.  It would tie in to the whole status symbol ideology that has already been mentioned.   I am not saying it is correct, but there is something to be said about human nature 🙂

37 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

I bought my first MPV and subsequent SUV’s for the dog!

Excellent reason to buy an SVU!

15 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

When talking about SUV s the discussion is mainly about the size, the weight and maybe the intimidating presence. Well, lets not forget normal cars that through the years have grown considerably in size as well.

I came up to a trafficlight the other day and next to me was a classic Mercedes S class from the seventies/eighties. I was shocked by how small it was and remember, this was propably one of the biggest cars on the market in its days! Ever compared a corsa from 1990 to the current one? Or a peugeot 206 from 30 yrs ago to todays equivalent? Not comparable at all. One explanation is safetyregulation that makes cars grow in size but another factor is that people just want bigger cars. More practical and safer feeling. I would even go as for in saying that if the original Vauxhall Corsa would be on offer it would simply be ignored. Requirements have moved on.

 

I think this image highlights what you are talking about well: