A big surprise ?

[royoftherovers]

10 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Well you place me John in something of a conundrum 🤔. As you know the word Academia is in itself from the Greek, essentially meaning theoretical with no practical purpose in mind therefore no decision required or needed. Yet you challenge me to make such a decision, just what is a fellow to do 😱

Do the honourable thing Sir.

[Phil xxkr]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I don't think anyone needs justification why they getting SUVs, but let's face it - majority of people don't have back injuries. These cross-overs are being marketed to young people - they don't have back injuries... Luggage space is larger on SUVs... guess what - UX has none... it is far worse than my RC which is considered poor in terms of luggage capacity, so it is not luggage either.

As for "higher seating positions allows for better view"... yes absolutely, because nowadays you have to sit higher, because everyone are in bloody SUVs... I can't go as far as saying it is selfish, but it is self-fulfilling. The more people buy SUVs, the more difficult it becomes for everyone else around to see, resulting in more people getting SUVs. It is like somebody standing-up in the concert "to see better"... guess what the guy behind him has to stand-up now... and soon we have everyone standing... So it is not a zero-sum game - for you to see more... I have to see less.

And all this has nothing to do with tolerance, if we all could have the cars we like that is all good, but studently people like me who want "normal" car have nothing to choose. So it is not lack of tolerance - I am just upset that cars I like are not getting made anymore and then it is being blamed back onto "us" (car buyers) - apparently that is because we want SUVs.

Dear boy! Now I understand, your sense of frustration is not with SUV buyers and their limited imagination per se but that the consequence of their free world choice is to limit yours. 👍Quelle fromage 😱 Welcome to the West or should that be Wild West? 😊.  

[Phil xxkr]

1 minute ago, royoftherovers said:

Do the honourable thing Sir.

Fraid I don't have a sword to hand at the moment 😅

[Mincey]

4 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Fraid I don't have a sword to hand at the moment 😅

Why am I reminded of this?

 

 

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

People like me, who have back injuries or other ailments or joint problems that make getting in and out of saloon cars difficult, find it far, far easier in an SUV-type car.

Usually more luggage space in an SUV and the tailgate opens wider than a boot, allowing easier loading.

Higher seating position allows for better view.

Don't get me wrong Herbie, perhaps I should have quantified my statement to preclude those with a real need.  As someone who has a serious back problem in the past, I can certainly sympathise.

However, you must admit that this reasoning doesn't apply to the majority of people that buy Crossover/SVU type cars.

[Phil xxkr]

20 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

The mrs opted for an SUV for these reasons. Easy to get in and out, better driving position on the road, more space for the family and because she wanted one. There are a lot of people that like SUV's. I guess it's personal choice.

Richard, I particularly like "because she wanted one" Bravo! And why not? Best reason imaginable 

[Shahpor]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I don't think anyone needs justification why they getting SUVs, but let's face it - majority of people don't have back injuries. These cross-overs are being marketed to young people - they don't have back injuries... Luggage space is larger on SUVs... guess what - UX has none... it is far worse than my RC which is considered poor in terms of luggage capacity, so it is not luggage either.

As for "higher seating positions allows for better view"... yes absolutely, because nowadays you have to sit higher, because everyone are in bloody SUVs... I can't go as far as saying it is selfish, but it is self-fulfilling. The more people buy SUVs, the more difficult it becomes for everyone else around to see, resulting in more people getting SUVs. It is like somebody standing-up in the concert "to see better"... guess what the guy behind him has to stand-up now... and soon we have everyone standing... So it is not a zero-sum game - for you to see more... I have to see less.

And all this has nothing to do with tolerance, if we all could have the cars we like that is all good, but studently people like me who want "normal" car have nothing to choose. So it is not lack of tolerance - I am just upset that cars I like are not getting made anymore and then it is being blamed back onto "us" (car buyers) - apparently that is because we want SUVs. Not it is not the case - they (car companies) only make and market SUVs, so we can only buy SUVs... if they would make and market more other cars, we would buy more other cars.

And I appreciate that with age and family SUV may be practical car... but before it was like you get hatchback when you are teenager, you go into coupe when you get to your 20's, then you go into estate or off-roader, when you get family... and when you get to middle-age crisis you get 911 (coupe again)... and when you past it then you get yourself large saloon.

Now people go like - small SUV, slightly bigger SUV, mid-size SUV, sports SUV, luxury SUV... just depressing!

Spot on Linas.

Like you say, it is a lack of choice.  I would serious consider the new IS if it were available in the UK, but that is just one specific example of a much larger trend.

[Phil xxkr]

7 minutes ago, Mincey said:

Why am I reminded of this?

 

 

Fabulous just fantastic 

[Linas.P]

16 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Dear boy! Now I understand, your sense of frustration is not with SUV buyers and their limited imagination per se but that the consequence of their free world choice is to limit yours. 👍Quelle fromage 😱 Welcome to the West or should that be Wild West? 😊.  

Well... I guess that is partially true. I don't like SUVs (not to be confused with true off-roaders) even if they wouldn't cause existential threat to cars I like. But there is a lot of truth in the statement - all the choices we make not only impacts us, it impacts other people. More cyclist on the roads = less space for cars, more SUV models = less models of other cars, somebody able to see more from their car = somebody seeing less and so on...It truth it doesn't have to be this way - we can extend cycling infrastructure without hurting motorists... manufacturers can offer more SUV models without destroying other established segments etc. but the reality is that everyone will do the easiest possible thing... just the way life is I guess.

That doesn't mean existence of SUVs are not justified - there are many reason to own one. For example my father drives SUV as well (I actually going to try to get him into NX next time) and even thought he does not have bad back, he has steep hill to climb from his house to get to main road, meaning he needs 4x4 especially in winter, secondly roads in the area are very poor so extra clearance from is needed, finally he like to go fishing meaning again he often needs loads of space for fishing equipment and car to reach off-road locations. So he needs 4x4... why did he choose SUV in the end, well that is because he as well has to go into the city and drive on the highway at allowed 90MPH in the country and most 4x4 sucks at it... so SUV is nice compromise. But again - very few people, especially in the city has such needs, so this does not explain prominence of SUVs as a type of care for universally every buyer.

Finally regarding extra tax for SUV... So we making big deal of ICE cars and goverment is hell bent to ban them and motorists are demonised for ruining the environment? Right? But long term studies shows that BEV cars like for like are just about 30% better for environment than ICE cars on average. Yet SUVs are generally 30% worse than normal car with same engine... don't you think it is strange that nobody has problem with this? And by all means - I appreciate that some people have valid reasons to own SUV... I am just talking about the majority who don't actually need one, but still buys one because "they want one". Perhaps if there would be meaningful extra charge people would at least consider if they actually need SUV before buying? Same like I consider whenever I want that 5L V8 car and do I really need it, because it will cost me extra £300 a year to tax. Maybe there is something else which would meet my needs without costing extra money... That is why I would support it. 

[dutchie01]

10 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Spot on Linas.

Like you say, it is a lack of choice.  I would serious consider the new IS if it were available in the UK, but that is just one specific example of a much larger trend.

Well, not really..   If you offer cars nobody buys you have no other option than to stop offering them.  There is plenty of choice, saloons hatchbacks crossovers SUVś trucks and so on but people just prefer taller bigger heavier cars  

 

 

[Shahpor]

27 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

The mrs opted for an SUV for these reasons. Easy to get in and out, better driving position on the road, more space for the family and because she wanted one. There are a lot of people that like SUV's. I guess it's personal choice.

Richard, if I may go full Linas on you for a moment (I do apologise in advance):

Easy to get in and out - This is a marginal benefit at best since 'normal' sized cars are hardly difficult to get in to.  In fact, I have actually found it the opposite sometimes since for some SVU's you have to 'hop up' to get in them which I find awkward.

better driving position on the road - Again, only in a small way.  Does looking down really make that much difference to the driver other than as a preference?  Apart from being able to look down on people in their saloons and hatchbacks (literally and figuratively), I don't think the benefit is significant.

more space for the family - Not necessarily.  As an example that has already been mentioned, the UX has a very small boot space.  I also remember when the BMW X6 first came out that people were commenting that it didn't have any additional space inside when compared to cars much smaller than it.

because she wanted one - And here we reach the crux of the issue.  One of the main reason I think people choose these cars is because they want one.  In isolation this seems like a reasonable logic, but it doesn't take into account the various factors that we have already discussed on this thread about how it affects other road users.  Also, to quote a tired cliché - "Would you give whiskey to an alcoholic?"  The obvious implication being that wanting something is sometimes not a good enough reason in itself.

Now this looks like a personal attack against you Richard, but I assure you it is not.  I am just bored and been wanting to unload this on the forum as soon as the opportunity allowed for it, which you so kindly provided 🙂

[Phil xxkr]

19 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Don't get me wrong Herbie, perhaps I should have quantified my statement to preclude those with a real need.  As someone who has a serious back problem in the past, I can certainly sympathise.

However, you must admit that this reasoning doesn't apply to the majority of people that buy Crossover/SVU type cars.

But its choice 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱

[Shahpor]

1 minute ago, dutchie01 said:

Well, not really..   If you offer cars nobody buys you have no other option than to stop offering them.  There is plenty of choice, saloons hatchbacks crossovers SUVś trucks and so on but people just prefer taller bigger heavier cars  

 

 

I never said it was economically viable or a sound business practice, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating 🙂

[Phil xxkr]

14 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Well... I guess that is partially true. I don't like SUVs (not to be confused with true off-roaders) even if they wouldn't cause existential threat to cars I like. But there is a lot of truth in the statement - all the choices we make not only impacts us, it impacts other people. More cyclist on the roads = less space for cars, more SUV models = less models of other cars 

More leftist - leaning people in power =less space for ALL cars + more cost + unintended consequences . This is an equation even Einstein would have trouble with. 🤗

[RichGS11]

1 minute ago, Shahpor said:

Richard, if I may go full Linas on you for a moment (I do apologise in advance):

Easy to get in and out - This is a marginal benefit at best since 'normal' sized cars are hardly difficult to get in to.  In fact, I have actually found it the opposite sometimes since for some SVU's you have to 'hop up' to get in them which I find awkward.

better driving position on the road - Again, only in a small way.  Does looking down really make that much difference to the driver other than as a preference?  Apart from being able to look down on people in their saloons and hatchbacks (literally and figuratively), I don't think the benefit is significant.

more space for the family - Not necessarily.  As an example that has already been mentioned, the UX has a very small boot space.  I also remember when the BMW X6 first came out that people were commenting that it didn't have any additional space inside when compared to cars much smaller than it.

because she wanted one - And here we reach the crux of the issue.  One of the main reason I think people choose these cars is because they want one.  In isolation this seems like a reasonable logic, but it doesn't take into account the various factors that we have already discussed on this thread about how it affects other road users.  Also, to quote a tired cliché - "Would you give whiskey to an alcoholic?"  The obvious implication being that wanting something is sometimes not a good enough reason in itself.

Now this looks like a personal attack against you Richard, but I assure you it is not.  I am just bored and been wanting to unload this on the forum as soon as the opportunity allowed for it, which you so kindly provided 🙂

It's not a personal attack by any means, I am perfectly happy with my place in this world and very secure in myself, but as much as you have replies for the reasons why my other half prefers SUV's, these are ultimately your views, which aren't the same as my partner. I also never stated the SUV she purchased which does tick the boxes stated above and is bigger than a UX. With a poorly hip, an SUV with the seat sitting just at the right height enables her to get in and out with ease, my ISF and any saloondoes not offer this. The car in questions is also considerably bigger than my ISF so it is bigger for the family and as for driving position on the road, higher is better for some. I drive a fire engine for a living and I know exactly why I higher seating position can be more favourable to some, of which she is one of those that likes to sit higher.

As I say, it's all personal preference. I own an ISF which drinks petrol, something of which most would dislike, it also has ridiculously high VED which again, some would dislike, but we buy the cars we want for ourselves and our own needs. Implying that people buy cars but they ultimately don't know what it is they want, is a bit of a stretch in your point, because that would imply justifying your own choice in a car is useless as you too don't know what you want 

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Richard, if I may go full Linas on you for a moment (I do apologise in advance):

Easy to get in and out - This is a marginal benefit at best since 'normal' sized cars are hardly difficult to get in to.  In fact, I have actually found it the opposite sometimes since for some SVU's you have to 'hop up' to get in them which I find awkward.

better driving position on the road - Again, only in a small way.  Does looking down really make that much difference to the driver other than as a preference?  Apart from being able to look down on people in their saloons and hatchbacks (literally and figuratively), I don't think the benefit is significant.

more space for the family - Not necessarily.  As an example that has already been mentioned, the UX has a very small boot space.  I also remember when the BMW X6 first came out that people were commenting that it didn't have any additional space inside when compared to cars much smaller than it.

because she wanted one - And here we reach the crux of the issue.  One of the main reason I think people choose these cars is because they want one.  In isolation this seems like a reasonable logic, but it doesn't take into account the various factors that we have already discussed on this thread about how it affects other road users.  Also, to quote a tired cliché - "Would you give whiskey to an alcoholic?"  The obvious implication being that wanting something is sometimes not a good enough reason in itself.

Now this looks like a personal attack against you Richard, but I assure you it is not.  I am just bored and been wanting to unload this on the forum as soon as the opportunity allowed for it, which you so kindly provided 🙂

Hello.... I like your new style!

I would add that there isn't better or worse thing, it is always trade-off and compromise. It is not easier to get into SUV. Yes sure if you have bad back it may be, but that is expectational case. On the contrary, because SUVs are higher you have to step-up instead of sitting down and you may as well make your trousers dirty if sills are dirty, so I would rather climb into low coupe than SUV.

Driving position better... not sure it is - you more up-right in SUV... Is that better? Maybe for some people it is, for some other it isn't. Could it be to do with visibility? Maybe... but again it is trade-off, you can see further away and especially if you have another SUV in front of you, then you can see past them. Yet you will always be worse of at seeing object closer to you and low down. That is why SUV drivers more often going to run over kerbs and low objects.

Agree with you on this one - SUV does not automatically mean it has loads of room. Yes RX will have more space than IS, but NX is comparable and UX has a lot less space. X6 is as well good example - it is rather cramped in the back and boot isn't great - but it is SUV! And besides - what if you don't have a big family kids and dogs? That all extra space just means more unnecessary weight you hauling around and higher fuel consumption.

So SUVs have many undeniable benefits, which comes with equally long list of undeniable issues - it is compromise. 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

It's not a personal attack by any means, I am perfectly happy with my place in this world and very secure in myself, but as much as you have replies for the reasons why my other half prefers SUV's, these are ultimately your views, which aren't the same as my partner. I also never stated the SUV she purchased which does tick the boxes stated above and is bigger than a UX. With a poorly hip, an SUV with the seat sitting just at the right height enables her to get in and out with ease, my ISF and any saloondoes not offer this. The car in questions is also considerably bigger than my ISF so it is bigger for the family and as for driving position on the road, higher is better for some. I drive a fire engine for a living and I know exactly why I higher seating position can be more favourable to some, of which she is one of those that likes to sit higher.

As I say, it's all personal preference. I own an ISF which drinks petrol, something of which most would dislike, it also has ridiculously high VED which again, some would dislike, but we buy the cars we want for ourselves and our own needs. Implying that people buy cars but they ultimately don't know what it is they want, is a bit of a stretch in your point, because that would imply justifying your own choice in a car is useless as you too don't know what you want 

But then why you feel the need to justify anything and everything. I am sure it was not a personal attack on your second half either. The Shahpor post said basically exactly the same thing - different people have different perspectives, needs and opinions, what is good for one is terrible for other.

Yet disproportionate number of people are buying SUVs and that seems to be the only thing that is being marketed and made. You can have IS-F because at some point there was more choice in the market, but that won't be the case in the future... it isn't the case even now. Lexus just announced 6th SUV  - they have GX, LX, RX, NX, UX and whatever the new stupid cross over will be called. yet at the same time they announced that they discontinuing GS, IS, RC and CT... so if you were in position where you want something like your IS-F now... sorry you would be out of luck! Hence the frustration we have... 

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

This as well coincides with increase of the drivers who don't really know if they want to drive at all or don't they... and obviously in rapid decrease in true motoring enthusiasts.

We get older and do not need/want to drive fast any more. Comfort is what matters now.

[Linas.P]

54 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

We get older and do not need/want to drive fast any more. Comfort is what matters now.

But what is then left for young people? Or their needs don't matter? 

As well I guess one needs to experience fast drive, harsh suspension and "hard" to get-into coupes before they can really appreciate the "comfort" of the SUV? 

[Phil xxkr]

17 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Richard, if I may go full Linas on you for a moment (I do apologise in advance):

Easy to get in and out - This is a marginal benefit at best since 'normal' sized cars are hardly difficult to get in to.  In fact, I have actually found it the opposite sometimes since for some SVU's you have to 'hop up' to get in them which I find awkward.

better driving position on the road - Again, only in a small way.  Does looking down really make that much difference to the driver other than as a preference?  Apart from being able to look down on people in their saloons and hatchbacks (literally and figuratively), I don't think the benefit is significant.

more space for the family - Not necessarily.  As an example that has already been mentioned, the UX has a very small boot space.  I also remember when the BMW X6 first came out that people were commenting that it didn't have any additional space inside when compared to cars much smaller than it.

because she wanted one - And here we reach the crux of the issue.  One of the main reason I think people choose these cars is because they want one.  In isolation this seems like a reasonable logic, but it doesn't take into account the various factors that we have already discussed on this thread about how it affects other road users.  Also, to quote a tired cliché - "Would you give whiskey to an alcoholic?"  The obvious implication being that wanting something is sometimes not a good enough reason in itself.

Now this looks like a personal attack against you Richard, but I assure you it is not.  I am just bored and been wanting to unload this on the forum as soon as the opportunity allowed for it, which you so kindly provided 🙂

Because you want one of anything isn't logic it's called choice. And because we live in the democratic West we get to exercise that ability to choose. The more you seek to delegitimise a person's reasons for choice you are essentially saying your reasoning is unsound therefore you shouldn't have individual choice but one that is given to you.  And, in my humble opinion, shows an unfortunate modern trait of being overly competitive, that only used to be seen on the Apprentice but now it appears its seeped into one's choice of vehicle, quelle horreur 😱. I am also intrigued by the use of the word logic since even a cursory knowledge of Aristotilian syllogisms would show the fallacies in most people's arguments 😎

[Spacewagon52]

Linas - with age comes wisdom young Grasshopper!

[dutchie01]

The bottom line is this. People but SUV/crossovers because they want one. Full stop. Please note that the average age of a car buyer is 55 yrs old. Then the absolute majority does not care about weight distribution, chassisbalance, brake performance they dont even know if their car is FWD or RWD ( BWM did investigate this amongst 1 series owners and they had no clue). Customers are looking for practicality and reliability. ANY crossover/suv is more practical than their lower siblings. Young parents like them because its easy to put the children in and out, Women like them because of a feeling of safety, men because of a sense of masculinity, the elder generation like me because of easy entry/exit ( if you dispute this you are likely of a younger generation just wait until time passes by!). They are perfect for shoppingtrips as well as schoolruns so yes i fully understand the preference of most. Do i have one? no i did have one but did not like the drivingposition a bit van like, and i experienced a bad accident with the car toppling over at the highway, something they easily do due to the high center of gravity.

They are more expensive but also more expensive to build. Remember, weight has its toll. Different brakes, roll bars, crumplezones, different grades of more expensive steel in critical areas etc. Most crossovers run on thesame engines as their lower friends ( A3 - Q3 etc) but the big SUV gas guzzlers are different. Diesel was the preferred choice but no longer so big engines are needed using petrol like a drunken sailor in the bar. These will disappear rapidly punished by taxation. No future.

Latest trend is that crossovers are going to look like hatchbacks. Do i mind ? not at all, plenty of choice and something for all to choose. ( as long as you are not looking for a coupe hydrogen 400hp car !!)

 

[dutchie01]

38 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But what is then left for you people? Or their needs don't matter? 

As well I guess one needs to experience fast drive, harsh suspension and "hard" to get-into coupes before they can really appreciate the "comfort" of the SUV? 

One day you will be able to answer this question Linas

[Linas.P]

36 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

 it's called choice. 

That in theory would mean marketing is useless. If all is about people choice, then why even bother marketing it - people will choose what they want. Right? 

No... I think marketing impacts the choice... let's market SUVs as well... people will want to be cool and people will buy them. If people would choose SUVs for actual practical needs I thing there would be far fewer of them. Nobody needs SUV smaller than NX, because all the implied advantages of SUV no longer exists in that size... yet crossovers are selling like a hot cakes... probably better!

My answer to this - for minority it is about choice, but for majority is 20 decades long indoctrination from never ending marketing, which eventually formed the opinion that having SUV "is practical and cool".

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

One day you will be able to answer this question Linas

I know the answer already... young people can't drive so why would anyone care what they think 😁 One must be at least 25 before they can even afford insurance never mind the car.

Even bigger issues is that man during middle age crisis don't matter either, because now it became popular to get into lycra clown costume, cycle on the road in most obtuse fashion possible and bark on all passing cars like rabid dog. And why I bring this up? That is because these man used to be the demographic which justified making coupes and that is why young people were able to pick their used coupes after 3-5 years and drive them. Nowadays such man have a bicycle and only sometimes borrows their wife SUVs... that is how the world has changed... 

ps. this meant to be satire, but maybe I am not the best writer 😄