Are we likely to see an all electric IS300?

[ColinBarber]

18 minutes ago, Bounce75 said:

I can't really see that Colin, there are still plenty of people buying C class's, 3 Series & A4's, so I think there is a market for them, but it seems Lexus are trying to cover it with the ES as well as the next class up.

Lexus has ended worldwide production of the GS because of declining sales.

Ford will cease worldwide production on the Mondeo next year with no replacement due to declining sales.

3 Series sales are strong but in decline. If the trend continues you could see MB, Audi and BMW starting to scale back on their saloon offerings.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Malc said:

I think my ancient Ls400 is said to be 0 - 60 mph in 6.7 seconds ....  is that the sort of acceleration you're referring to ?

Malc

More than fast enough. Our CT is fast enough for us.

Whoever want a family car to accelerate faster than 4 seconds 0 - 60 is a moron.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, ganzoom said:

So people are saying hydrogen is the answer, much better than EVs, but cannot give a time of when it well happen, whilst EVs have been usable for years!! Who is been stupid??

Do not ask a question if you know the answer is something you do not want to hear.

[Bounce75]

42 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Lexus has ended worldwide production of the GS because of declining sales.

Ford will cease worldwide production on the Mondeo next year with no replacement due to declining sales.

3 Series sales are strong but in decline. If the trend continues you could see MB, Audi and BMW starting to scale back on their saloon offerings.

It's funny, but I just can't see execs driving around in SUV's or hatchbacks.

Maybe they will not have a choice if all manufacturers decide to pull the plug on saloons?

[Linas.P]

54 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

3 Series sales are strong but in decline. If the trend continues you could see MB, Audi and BMW starting to scale back on their saloon offerings.

There are other way to answer this...

In Europe saloons have always been very competitive niche, it is even referred as "European/sports saloon" in say US. This is distinct car which isn't really popular in US or generally worldwide... they have their full-size saloon (sedan) cars in US well represented by such cars as Ford Crown Victoria or Lexus ES. These are large cars made for cruising at highway, but not very sporty. Lexus decision to make IS and GS was a shot at specifically BMW 3 and 5 series European Sport saloons...

Perhaps the reason Lexus decided to stop making IS and GS is simply because:

• The market is far too competitive/unprofitable 
• they simply lost the game for BMW/MB

They tried hard, but sadly they were never been able to make competitive European/sports saloon which would be recognised as market leader.

Same could be said about Ford - Mondeo was popular in early 90's, Sierra in 80's before Germans found the way to dominate the market. Nowadays no exec drives Mondeo, despite it being normal in 90s. BMW/MB simply managed to establish themselves as a market leaders and other manufacturers simply could not bother to invest money needed to offer competitive product there.

[ganzoom]

39 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Do not ask a question if you know the answer is something you do not want to hear.

That is beyond mad. So you guys love telling everyone how great hydrogen is but not a single one of you can tell us WHEN this amazing future is going to come?

Don't conmen use the same technique??

If none of you can answer the most important question, which is REAL WORLD implementation than I think we all know the future for this magical mystical solution.

Maybe you guys want to sell us some magic beans too? Because its increasingly sounding like a similar proposition.

So do any of you have any real world implementation dates at all?? Even a rough road map?? Or is it all a con...

[Linas.P]

42 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

So you guys love telling everyone how great hydrogen is but not a single one of you can tell us WHEN this amazing future is going to come?

I have answered your question. It is not future, it is present ... even past for some. You can already own hydrogen car and reach any part of UK in it. 

[NemesisUK]

As of May 2021 UK hydrogen refuelling stations..

1. Shell, Gatwick (RH6 0NX) - Operated by: ITM Power
2. Shell, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS) - Operated by: ITM Power
3. Power CEME Innovation Centre, Marsh Way, Rainham (RM13 8EU) - Operated by: ITM Power
4. NPL, Teddington (TW11 0LY) - Operated by: ITM Power
5. Hatton Cross Station, London (TW6 2GE) - Operated by: Air Products
6. Shell, M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE) - Operated by: ITM Power
7. Honda Manufacturing, Swindon (SN3 4TZ) - Operated by: BOC
8. J Matthey, Great Western Way, Swindon (SN5 8AT) - Operated by: ITM Power
9. AMP, Rotherham, Sheffield (S60 5WG) - Operated by: ITM Power
10. Aberdeen Hydrogen Centre, Langdykes Road, City of Aberdeen (AB12 3FT) - Operated by: Aberdeen City Council
11. Hydrogen Refuelling, Powis Terrace, City of Aberdeen (AB25 3RF) - Operated by: BOC

Planned hydrogen refuelling stations:

1. A50/A38 services, Willington, Derby (DE65 6DX) - Operated by: ITM Power

Cavendish House Prince’s Wharf, Thornaby, Stockton-on-Tees (TS17 6QY) - Operated by: TBC

Interestingly one can only use the ITM Power operated stations after applying for a fuel card and receiving training...

Use of an app is required to determine the operational status of each station. Might be difficult to plan a long distance journey

[Malc]

2 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

Planned hydrogen refuelling stations:

and probably every BP filling station in the UK as soon as the BP production capacity is up and running from the north of England 

 

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

So do any of you have any real world implementation dates at all?? Even a rough road map?? Or is it all a con...

ganzoom, I doubt even BP has a definitive answer for you, and they're the people investing maybe just a few £bn of their monies in this , as you might say ... " con  " -    cept 

Malc

[NemesisUK]

I'd say the first and biggest uptake in hydrogen fuel cell will be in the public transport sector and anywhere close control of it's distribution can be ensured.

[ColinBarber]

4 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I'd say the first and biggest uptake in hydrogen fuel cell will be in the public transport sector and anywhere close control of it's distribution can be ensured.

Agreed. Even Toyota don't believe the majority of cars will be FCEVs. Their focus is on public transport in Japan.

Quote

The basic concept of hybrid power has successfully been adapted to produce hybrid electric (HEV), plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV), battery electric (BEV) and – starting with Mirai – fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEV). Each has qualities suited to different mobility requirements: for example, BEVs for shorter commutes and urban driving; HEVs and PHEVs for general and longer distance personal travel; and FCEVs for larger passenger cars, heavy-duty vehicles and public transport.

 

[Linas.P]

Key advantage of Hydrogen station is that it enables everyone in it's vicinity to own Hydrogen vehicle. What is considered reasonable distance to travel obviously is personal thing, but I would say ~20 miles is feasible.

[Las Palmas]

Electrolysis: An electric current splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. If the electricity is produced by renewable sources, such as solar or wind, the resulting hydrogen will be considered renewable as well, and has numerous emissions benefits. Power-to-hydrogen projects are taking off, where excess renewable electricity, when available, is used to make hydrogen through electrolysis.

Nobody seemed to notice that the by-product from this way of making fuel is oxygen, which is severely, needed many places. Neither that it can be made where the filling station is so no need to transport it, which will make it less polluting than gasoline and diesel not to talk about the loss in the cables from sending electricity long distance.

And when the hydrogen has been used it returns to the former state which in this case is water.

[Las Palmas]

52 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Agreed. Even Toyota don't believe the majority of cars will be FCEVs. Their focus is on public transport in Japan.

Did you forget transporting all the goods we import from China and other places far, far away, even if not really needed. Container ships are a polluting a lot more than transport on land.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, NemesisUK said:

Interestingly one can only use the ITM Power operated stations after applying for a fuel card and receiving training...

Funny as it supposedly can be made so that fuelling is only possible when connected correct. Hydrogen is as flammable as gasoline at least. But the good thing is that when spilled it will not just lie on the ground and risk to burn there.

[bernieeccles]

So, I ask again. Where is the generating capacity going to come from to charge the nations electric cars in future when at present the generators sometimes struggle to supply enough when everybody plugs in the electric kettle for a cup of something when there is something like half time at the recent Euro football matches on the TV.

How many new power stations will be required and when is the construction due to start.

I have my own theory that the powers that be know there wont be enough capacity and that electric car ownership will be rationed by cost and ability to charge. Most people will be forced to use public transport which will certainly curtail the freedom to travel which we currently enjoy.

This process has already started, witness the high VED on new cars, the banning from city areas unless you cough up extortionate daily fees, the proposed reduction of speed limits disguised as cleaning up the air quality and of course this applies to  EVs even though they emit nothing. Our freedom to use a car is being eroded under our noses but so gradually that many don't notice.

In short, TCMITS is going to be priced off the road.

[Linas.P]

24 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

I have my own theory that the powers that be know there wont be enough capacity and that electric car ownership will be rationed by cost and ability to charge. Most people will be forced to use public transport which will certainly curtail the freedom to travel which we currently enjoy.

That is exactly my fear... all the signs are point to exactly that. I can see any progress made in terms of capacity needed, or transmission and charging network building. All focus is on demonising the motorist, abandoning the roads, diverting public funding into cycling infrastructure, public transport etc. demolishing parking and converting them into flats without parking. I think the future will be very sad for motorists - it will be back to 1920s where to won the car one will have to be extremely rich. Once all remaining ICEs case existing after sales ban in 2030 (say after 10-15 years) the only option will be to use public, cycle or walk.

The saddest thing - there won't even be riots and nobody going to put politicians on pikes! look at current generation - people are growing up and not even getting driving license (partly because they won't be able to insure until they are at least 25-30), they will never experience the freedom car gives (especially when you are teenager) and thus they will never miss it. So they will never see an issue in cars disappearing 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, bernieeccles said:

So, I ask again. Where is the generating capacity going to come from to charge the nations electric cars in future when at present the generators sometimes struggle to supply enough when everybody plugs in the electric kettle for a cup of something when there is something like half time at the recent Euro football matches on the TV.

Did anyone have power issues at half time? I didn't hear of any.

National grid believe they have enough capacity today to cope if everyone switched over tomorrow - obviously that won't happen and solar and wind energy supplies continue to increase year on year so by the time EV are a majority there certainly won't be even a slight issue. All home charges that qualify for an installation grant have to be smart chargers so they can be scheduled to use off-peak power.

Oil refineries consume huge amounts of electricity so by producing less would also free up a lot of capacity.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

National grid believe they have enough capacity today to cope if everyone switched over tomorrow

Let's just be serious for a second here... who believes this BS... 32 million BEV tomorrow and we have enough capacity. Please just stop... 

[ColinBarber]

34 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Let's just be serious for a second here... who believes this BS... 32 million BEV tomorrow and we have enough capacity. Please just stop... 

I'm sorry, I forgot that you were the world expect on the UK power network and that Nation Grid should have run this passed you for factual accuracy before being published.

Quote

Enough capacity exists   

The most demand for electricity we’ve had in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, due to improved energy efficiency such as the installation of solar panels, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16 per cent. Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

You seem to have some weird notion that everyone is going to charge their vehicle every day, all at the same time. In the same way that we all fill up our petrol cars at the same time, every day.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

[Linas.P]

Ok ... I leave you to believe in this propaganda. You do understand that people writing this BS are partial and it is in their own interest to say how great they are. They just take average, most favourable situation and then say all will be good... Except comes 2030 and suddenly we will realise that network and power generation is not sufficient.

I don't want to link it to another recent political disaster, but I don't believe you don't understand how politicians talk and conduct the business. They said as well that there won't be border in Irish see, and there won't be delays for good crossing the channel... same like there will be no shortage of charging point and electricity. Sure...

Please get real!

[Las Palmas]

Of course there is not enough power to charge electric cars if all that use cars today change to such. If there should be enough electricity to that there would have to be much more than polluting windmills (the leftovers when no longer functioning), solar cells on top of private roofs and other places (also polluting as these do not last much more than 10 years and heavy hail will destroy a lot of them). Going back to A power is a possibility, but when the US is not able to clean up the mess they left on the Thule Air Base, who will be able to take care of the burned out radioactive leftovers?

Those believing in such nonsense are hopeless optimists thinking that we will find a solution and if not maybe our children will. What a great inheritance to give to our children.

It should be criminal to be so stupid and careless.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

It should be criminal to be so stupid and careless.

Agreed...

Sadly not as single politician would ever accept that, because all of them would end-up in jail. Point is - they only care about getting elected and the getting thought the term... whatever happens after the terms they don't care... new goverment will deal with it... but new goverment does the same exact thing over and over again. 

[paulrnx]

This subject just gets done to death every time. Whether we have enough electricity generating capacity is irrelevant. What we don’t have I believe is big enough local sub-stations to support lots of people in an area fed by a particular sub-station charging their EVs. It is not the work of a moment to replace or upgrade these local sub-stations and it is this restriction that will limit capacity. I don’t believe we have enough generating capacity either but time will tell on that one. No-one seems prepared to have a proper debate about our lack of generating and distribution capacity because it’s got to be EVs and anyone who argues against this is killing the environment and doesn’t care. Which is ridiculous.

[Malc]

13 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Container ships are a polluting a lot more than transport on land.

there's a solution to this in the making right now

HamburgSud ( the Dr Oetker baking people actually ) sold it's entire fleet to Maersk a year or so back

Maersk has on order right now the first of probably many to come...  Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered container ships

Malc