Are we likely to see an all electric IS300?

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

I was reading a couple of weeks ago that BP is investing in developing a Hydrogen Fuel Plant somewhere in the north of England 

Malc

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/toyota-gr-yaris-review-sensational-special-project-takes-hot/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/2021-toyota-mirai-review-hydrogen-fuelled-electric-car-quiet/

Toyota are pretty far in making cars that will be attractive for us, when they are no longer new and the price for these come down to at least Lexus CT level. May be far out in the future.

[dutchie01]

A GR Yaris. Now we are talking! 

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

0-100mph in under 4 seconds must be on the cards soon!!! Astounding levels of performance.

why soon:

0-100 km/h (kph) Times in less than 3 seconds - Car List

Koenigsegg Gemera 2.0 Turbo Petrol Hybrid - [2020] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.0 seconds

Ariel Atom V8 500 - [2008] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti Centodieci 8.0L W16 64 Valve Turbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti Chiron Sport 110 ans Bugatti - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti Chiron Sport 8.0L W16 Quad Turbo - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti Divo 8.0L W16 64 Valve Turbo - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti La Voiture Noire 8.0L W16 64 Valve Turbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 6.2 V8 - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.4 seconds

Bugatti Chiron 8.0 W16 Quad Turbo - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.5 seconds

Ferrari SF 90 Stradale 4.0 V8 Hybrid - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.5 seconds

Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport Vitesse - [2012] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Bugatti Veyron 8.0 litre W16 Super Sport - [2010] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Caparo T1 2.4 V8 - [2006] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Caparo T1 3.5l V8 - [2007] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Hennessey Venom GT 6.2L V8 - [2010] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Koenigsegg Agera RS 5.1 V8 Twin Turbo - [2015] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Koenigsegg Jesko 5.1 V8 BiTurbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Koenigsegg Jesko Absolut 5.1 V8 BiTurbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Koenigsegg One 1 5.1 V8 Twin Turbo - [2014] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Koenigsegg Regera 5.0 V8 Turbo - [2015] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

SSC Tuatara 6.9L V8 Twin Turbo - [2011] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Tesla Model S P100D Ludicrous Performance - [2014] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.6 seconds

Apollo Intensa Emozione 6.3 V12 - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.7 seconds

Porsche Taycan Turbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.7 seconds

Porsche Taycan Turbo S - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.7 seconds

Radical RXC 3.5 V6 Twin Turbo - [2014] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.7 seconds

Ultima GTR 720 - [2000] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.7 seconds

Bugatti Veyron 8.0 litre W16 - [2005] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Ferrari 488 Pista 3.9 V8 Turbo - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Lamborghini Aventador LP770-4 Superveloce Jota SVJ - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Lamborghini Centenario LP 770-4 - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Lamborghini SC18 Alston 6.5 V8 - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Lamborghini Sian FKP 37 6.5L V12 - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

McLaren 765LT 4.0 V8 Twin Turbo - [2020] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

McLaren Senna 4.0 V8 Twin Turbo - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

NIO EP9 1MW - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Porsche 911 GT2 RS - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Porsche Taycan Turbo S Cross Turismo - [2021] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Radical RXC Turbo 500 3.5 V6 - [2015] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Zenvo TSR S 5.8 V8 Twin Supercharged - [2018] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.8 seconds

Ascari A10 5.0 V8 - [2006] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

BAC Mono 280bhp - [2011] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Caterham 7 620 R 2.0 L Supercharged - [2013] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Ferrari 812 Superfast - 6.5l V12 - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Ferrari F8 Spider 3.9 V8 Bi Turbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Ferrari F8 Tributo 3.9 V8 Bi Turbo - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Ford GT 3.5 V6 Bi-Turbo - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Koenigsegg Agera S 5.0 V8 Hundra - [2013] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Aventador LP750-4 Superveloce - [2014] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Aventador LP770-4 Roadster SVJ - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Aventador S 6.5 V12 - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Centenario LP 770-4 Roadster - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Huracan EVO 5.2 V10 - [2019] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Lamborghini Veneno 6.5 V12 - [2013] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

McLaren 720S 4.0 V8 Twin Turbo - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Porsche 911 Turbo S 991 II - [2016] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Porsche 918 Spyder 4.6 V8 - [2013] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Radical RXC 3.7 V6 - [2014] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

SSC Ultimate Aero TT - [2008] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

TVR Cerbera Speed 12 - [2000] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

W-Motors Lykan HyperSport 3.7L Twin Turbo - [2013] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Zenvo TS1 GT 5.8 V8 10th Anniversary - [2017] 0-100 kph (km/h) time - 2.9 seconds

Some of the cars are big enough to have a family plus a lot of baggage for a vacation and still reach the 100 km/h faster than  the 3 seconds you ask for.

Sure most of them could come first to the next red light if that is the purpose for having a fast car.

[dutchie01]

I am waiting on the first car that can transport my body in minus 1 second.

Bit of a gimmick to me and already the novelty seems to wear off. Current cars coming to market have accelerationtimes of around 6 secs ( incl the new Merc EQS). seems good enough for me.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Why would 15% of households have an EV charge point if 15% of households don't own an EV? No one is going to install one until they purchase an EV.

Correct.

Only thing you do not mention is that maybe some people actually would think a EV would be a good thing to have for them but will not have a possibility to charge at home.

On top of that I do not hope that 15% will get an EV.

Seems that I am not the only one here that does not like to dig for rare earth in order to make fast EV so maybe that is it? Those who want one and can charge at home probably will get one and the rest of us will have what we have or can get. Pollution from privately owned cars are so little compared to many other things that what we in this forum drive will have little or no impact anyway.

The climate disasters around the world will maybe make some people think and maybe not for very long.

 

Still we can make hydrogen absolutely without pollution:

Electrolysis: An electric current splits water into hydrogen and oxygen. If the electricity is produced by renewable sources, such as solar or wind, the resulting hydrogen will be considered renewable as well, and has numerous emissions benefits. Power-to-hydrogen projects are taking off, where excess renewable electricity, when available, is used to make hydrogen through electrolysis.

Fermentation: Biomass is converted into sugar-rich feedstocks that can be fermented to produce hydrogen.

Photobiological Water Splitting: Microbes, such as green algae, consume water in the presence of sunlight, producing hydrogen as a byproduct.

High-Temperature Water Splitting: High temperatures generated by solar concentrators drive chemical reactions that split water to produce hydrogen.

Photoelectrochemical Water Splitting: Photoelectrochemical systems produce hydrogen from water using special semiconductors and energy from sunlight.

 

When hydrogen is used it will become the same as it started out from: Water.

[Las Palmas]

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

I am waiting on the first car that can transport my body in minus 1 second.

Could exist in a black hole, if you want to go there. Return to the future or whatever.

[Malc]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

So when are hydrogen supporters on this forum buying a fuel cell car

probably as soon as the refuelling network is in place, via all the BP petrol stations and others too that will buy into BP's hydrogen fuel delivery capacity   e.g. Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury and Morrisons....  and probably more likely for most car owners than the spasmodic opportunities to refill with electric methinks ...  especially when Rishi decides to sensibly and necessarily  road tax those EVs to recoup the petroleum tax revenue lost 

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

sound like we need something that could use all that electricity at night, something that could be charged up maybe?

Many people wouldn't even need a dedicated charger. The average mileage in the UK is less than 8,000 miles per year, so less than 40 miles per working day. You can charge for that just using a 13 A domestic socket (which gives you around 7 miles per hour @ 10 A).

You are banking on that something needed the electricity exactly when there is sudden excess. We are not talking about general peaks and quite times here, there are demand fluctuations and that is what causes most issues. Secondly, to charge these cars there are still transmission losses and the charging itself is not 100% efficient either. This doesn't disprove my statement in any way, nor it makes Hydrogen production for excess power not viable - you simply just assume BEVs could take a use of excess capacity in the network... which is true in theory, I just don't think networks and charging points could manage the transmissions so precisely to eliminate waste completely. It is definitely much more easy to do it at power station level - because power station can sense excess almost instantly.

The second statement just oversimplifies the issue. No you absolutely can't charge modern electric car using domestic socket, because it may take 2-3 days to do it. You assume that every one simply going to charge the car back to the range they have used during the day everyday... again I can see many issues with that. Simple example - I decided to drive to the seaside on Sunday, which is around 140miles each way... give or take. So 280miles range is gone and because you generally get less range once A/C, cooling, heating and music is on this would mean I could barely manage this even in long rage Tesla. On Monday I have to drive to client meeting 40 miles from home... so again I need at lest 120 miles of range.... There is no way I will be able to recharge it at home, because it would take 17 hours. Sure I may be able to recharge enough to reach fast charging point, but then I need to factor extra 30-60minutes into my morning... For me that would be disaster, because I already hate morning as it is, if I need to wake-up hour earlier, then I may as well just run ICE car. Or maybe I decided to go to the beach both days, Saturday and Sunday - there is no way I can do that with home charging BEV.

In short - you can't take average annual mileage, divide it by day and assume that every person will drive exact same route every day and thus can simply recharge at home. This is not how it works in reality... journeys will warry significantly and there will be days when car will not be used, and there will be days where car needs to do 600 miles in a span of 2 days.

 

[Malc]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

i do not see a role for hydrogen other than experimental use. 

is it Belgium or Holland ?, I think I was reading, that is shortly banning all HGV that is NOT hydrogen fuel cell powered 

[Malc]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Improving existing vehicles to even Euro 5 is technically or economically not possible.  

is there really no exhaust type in-line " box " that could assist here ?  has anyone really tried ?

Malc

[ganzoom]

53 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

why soon:

0-100 km/h (kph) Times in less than 3 seconds - Car List

0-100mph is very different from 0-100km/hr 😂

Nearly every one of those car you listed also essentially hypercars that will drive you mad if you tried to use them as family cars. Yet an electric family car with a boot this big is faster than all them, and by a fair margin.

The performance to practicality of EVs really are on a different level.

 

 

[Malc]

39 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Current cars coming to market have accelerationtimes of around 6 secs

I think my ancient Ls400 is said to be 0 - 60 mph in 6.7 seconds ....  is that the sort of acceleration you're referring to ?

Malc

[ganzoom]

9 minutes ago, Malc said:

probably as soon as the refuelling network is in place

Which well be when? As I've already said I've been using an EV as our main family car since 2015. 

Do you anticipate buying a hydrogen fuel cell car by say next year? Or year after? Any idea on time lines at all?

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, ganzoom said:

I agree, but the Plaid versions of the S is hitting figures that are literally insane. You are talking about F1 car acceleration but in a family friendly package and running costs of LESS than a IS300H without need for a whole support team.

I have said many times that I hate several cars because they are too slow, but frankly even I think that 2.5s in family SUV is stupid and unnecessary. 

I understand there are cars where 0-60 is the key selling point (supercars, hypercars etc.), with exception of those the only think which matters to me is acceleration enough to be able to safely accelerate and join the traffic. I don't think there is definitive answer to that, but 5-6s 0-60 should be enough to safely join any road and for overtaking. 

In short - I think what Tesla is doing with Plaid versions is just stupid and wasteful. Not to mention this extra acceleration is pollution as well. Let's just face it - Tesla is not a green car. Yes they took BEV technology and are very successful with marketing themselves as "green" , but performance BEVs are very far from actually being green.

As @Las Palmas mentioned many times here - CO2 emissions is not the only way to look at how green the car is. In fact I much less worried about global warming and CO2... which may or may not impact humanity in 10000 years, but I am very worried about much more acute problem like plastic and heavy metal pollution which is poisoning our food sources right now!

[Malc]

1 minute ago, ganzoom said:

Any idea on time lines at all?

pardon me for stating the obvious but why are you asking such a stupid question ?? How is anyone on here likely to know the answer ........  bit like asking when's the country ever going to be EV chargeable ready for every EV owner 

Malc

[ganzoom]

2 minutes ago, Malc said:

pardon me for stating the obvious but why are you asking such a stupid question ?? How is anyone on here likely to know the answer ........  bit like asking when's the country ever going to be EV chargeable ready for every EV owner 

Malc

So people are saying hydrogen is the answer, much better than EVs, but cannot give a time of when it well happen, whilst EVs have been usable for years!! Who is been stupid??

Lets not forget people on there don't seem to know the difference between Miles and KM....

[ColinBarber]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

No you absolutely can't charge modern electric car using domestic socket, because it may take 2-3 days to do it.

I like the way you take make these ridiculous and false statements. Yes you can charge an EV with a domestic socket, people do it all the time. The time it takes is dependant on the charge you use, therefore if you only use it for a 20 mile round trip to work it will only take 3 hours to put that charge back in.

To take your example of 180 mile trip may mean an EV isn't suitable for you but that doesn't mean the rest of the country is the same as you. But in any case many would take the train, charge at a fast charger on the way back or just let it charge over 2 to 3 days if that's how long it will take - there aren't many people doing 180 mile trips every day, so the fact the it isn't fully charged the next day is irrelevant, they will have enough charge for their trip to work and back. For those that do more mileage on a regular basis then they install a dedicated home charger.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

I like the way you take make these ridiculous and false statements. Yes you can charge an EV with a domestic socket, people do it all the time. The time it takes is dependant on the charge you use, therefore if you only use it for a 20 mile round trip to work it will only take 3 hours to put that charge back in.

To take your example of 180 mile trip may mean an EV isn't suitable for you but that doesn't mean the rest of the country is the same as you. But in any case many would take the train, charge at a fast charger on the way back or just let it charge over 2 to 3 days if that's how long it will take - there aren't many people doing 180 mile trips every day, so the fact the it isn't fully charged the next day is irrelevant, they will have enough charge for their trip to work and back. For those that do more mileage on a regular basis then they install a dedicated home charger.

It is not ridiculously false... It is a fact that to fully charge BEV with standards socket will take 2-3 days. 

That you have decided to include rather arbitrary circumstances and conditions to suit your story that is your problem not mine. 

I never said people drive 180miles everyday, but it would not be unusual to do it once a week or once a month... and if that makes your car unusable next day, then it is quite a big issue.

Again you pedal same ridiculous idea that - either can simply charge from the socket already... which is not at all universally true, or that people most can install the charge (no they can't) or they already have one (no they don't).

Let's just agree on on thing - owning BEV will inevitably require significant change in how we use the cars, the charging times significantly reduces flexibility of how, when and for how long the car could be used, where it could be charged etc. I agree that there will be few people for whom it may not be an issue, but most likely (as it is today) most of BEV owners simply going to have 2 cars... once BEV for just run around the town for short trips and another one ICE when they want to go further. This isn't exactly good solution and certainly it isn't very environmentally friendly. 2 cars even if one of the are BEV will pollute more over their lifetime than 1. 

[Malc]

and the sensible real question is ..................  dumdedumdeda  ( roll of drums )  

Are we likely to see an all electric IS300?

not when or how or if but, I'm guessing,  " ever "  ??

answers on a post card please .......  one word or two could do 

Malc

[ColinBarber]

6 minutes ago, Malc said:

answers on a post card please .......  one word or two could do 

No

To expand, we are unlikely to see any IS again in this country as the market doesn't want saloons. There may not even be another IS generation worldwide.

If there is then I'd be surprised if there isn't an BEV option, but it would likely be an IS450e or IS500e if they retain their existing nomenclature where the number represents the equivalent petrol engine power/performance. It would certainly have a different and more powerful drivetrain to the existing UX300e.

[Linas.P]

@Malc - No, there won't be another IS.

37 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

No

To expand, we are unlikely to see any IS again in this country as the market doesn't want saloons. There may not even be another IS generation worldwide.

If there is then I'd be surprised if there isn't an BEV option, but it would likely be an IS450e or IS500e if they retain their existing nomenclature where the number represents the equivalent petrol engine power/performance. It would certainly have a different and more powerful drivetrain to the existing UX300e.

I would go with the first guess - no more IS ever worldwide. If there is going to be global saloon version it will be ES based car.

Not exactly sure how UX300e represents 3L petrol engine? I think this nomenclature is long out of the windows and the last car to somewhat represent it was GS450h... 300h never represented equivalent to 3L petrol... so these number have long become arbitrary model names showing where the car sits in the range and nothing else. 

 

[Bounce75]

38 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

No

To expand, we are unlikely to see any IS again in this country as the market doesn't want saloons. There may not even be another IS generation worldwide.

If there is then I'd be surprised if there isn't an BEV option, but it would likely be an IS450e or IS500e if they retain their existing nomenclature where the number represents the equivalent petrol engine power/performance. It would certainly have a different and more powerful drivetrain to the existing UX300e.

I can't really see that Colin, there are still plenty of people buying C class's, 3 Series & A4's, so I think there is a market for them, but it seems Lexus are trying to cover it with the ES as well as the next class up.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

So people are saying hydrogen is the answer, much better than EVs, but cannot give a time of when it well happen, whilst EVs have been usable for years!! Who is been stupid??

Lets not forget people on there don't seem to know the difference between Miles and KM....

Do not ask such a question. You know that those destroying the world for next generations are stupid and these are...

Miles is a very fluid thing. Take UK miles, US miles, nautical miles, Swedish miles, Danish miles. All different. For whatever reason.

KM is the only thing to meassure in as this is not different in different corners of the world.

Who would like to think that the UK or British or Commonwealth Pound is a smart way of calculating? How many farthings to a Pound, how many whatever to a whatever?

While we are at it: Is gallons a smart way to measure fluid capacity when even in UK gasoline is filled by litre?

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

0-100mph is very different from 0-100km/hr 😂

Nearly every one of those car you listed also essentially hypercars that will drive you mad if you tried to use them as family cars. Yet an electric family car with a boot this big is faster than all them, and by a fair margin.

The performance to practicality of EVs really are on a different level.

 

 

When 0 - 100 is usually mentioned it is km/h

Mph is usually stated as 0 - 60.

Forgive me for not paying attention to your new way of defining acceleration.

[stepheneric]

The crazy thing is that in UK fuel is sold in litres, but fuel consumption is in miles per gallon. More logical for Manufacturers to provide miles per litre information because UK distances are still non metric and remain in miles.