Are we likely to see an all electric IS300?

[Linas.P]

39 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

they are not my conclusions, they are results of studies and surveys conducted by professionals and government agencies who have knowledge of the subject and spend time researching, not some individual who have given it 5 minutes thought and thinks his conclusions are more valid than everyone else's.

All those surveys conducted by professionals... sadly you have not linked any here.

I admit that my figures are "educated guesses" at best, at least I have looked-up some actual statistics and explained how I came to estimates/ conclusion. As I said before the mere fact that one estimate is 50% and another is 75% already shows that both estimates are incorrect. We not talking about accidental chance of getting hit by lightning here, we are talking about quantifiable thing - parking space. So there should be no significant disparity...  

33 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

Lamp post charging? Another red herring, just go and have a look at how many lamp posts exist on your street and see how far apart they are. Now think of all those electric cars parked on the street waiting for a vacant lamp post and the ensuing problems that will occur when said motorists all try to connect their cars to a lamp post when and if it becomes vacant. Who was it that said "I predict a riot"

This whole electric car thing may be doable at the moment when there are so few cars needing to be charged but when there are literally millions needing to be charged?

Also how much generating capacity will be needed for all these cars and what is the lead in time for the construction and completion on multi billion power stations? 10 years, 20 years? Will they be nuclear, if so, get ready to deal with the backlash from the usual group of protesters.

If you look at any estimates provided by goverment, they are always estimating that:

1. energy consumption will continue to fall and even that fall will accelerate... which is massive assumption
2. is that number of cars overall going to be much lower in future... again I am not convinced
3. they are only estimating that ~10-25% of cars will be EVs (by 2030)... which begs a question, what will be remaining 75-90% if they planning to ban ICE sales the same year!?

In short I agree with you - it is far easier said than done and this "lamp-post" charging sounds to me like typical politician lie when they are confronted with the facts of suitable parking and charging points... "no worries - in future somehow we will have charging point on every lamp post, so you don't need to worry about charging at home"... BS!

[Las Palmas]

5 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Maybe we are living on different planets, but I've owned an EV since 2015, and covered nearly 70K miles across the whole of the UK and driven in Europe.

If you have a crew like that you can drive electric car “green”. If there is sun enough.

 

This is a model maybe better for a little family. 50km daily 4 days a week:

 

Some of the problems mining for material to batteries for electric cars:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2300396018301836

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/31/the-dark-side-of-congos-cobalt-rush

https://therevelator.org/ev-batteries-seabed-mining/

If you still think electric cars are good for the future – you must be living on a different planet.

Yes: I still believe those thinking that all transport can be made with power from batteries are stupid.

[doog442]

35 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

 

This whole electric car thing may be doable at the moment when there are so few cars needing to be charged but when there are literally millions needing to be charged?

Also how much generating capacity will be needed for all these cars and what is the lead in time for the construction and completion on multi billion power stations? 10 years, 20 years? Will they be nuclear, if so, get ready to deal with the backlash from the usual group of protesters.

I'm on the fence about the whole thing but someone on the EV side did ask how many of us refuel our cars at home?  Home charging is ideal for those of us who can but isn't the long term idea that charging stations get 'super quick' .

According to this article, charging as fast as refuelling at a petrol station is the aim and it may well happen in the next 4-8 years

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2021/01/31/electric-car-charging-as-fast-as-gasoline-is-the-aim-but-barriers-remain/?sh=73e40ec12eba

 

[Las Palmas]

17 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I'm on the fence about the whole thing but someone on the EV side did ask how many of us refuel our cars at home?  Home charging is ideal for those of us who can but isn't the long term idea that charging stations get 'super quick' .

According to this article, charging as fast as refuelling at a petrol station is the aim and it may well happen in the next 4-8 years

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2021/01/31/electric-car-charging-as-fast-as-gasoline-is-the-aim-but-barriers-remain/?sh=73e40ec12eba

 

If you do not care about destroying the planet in search for materials to make batteries from, plus that the batteries will be made so they are not destroyed by fast charging, as they are now.

For the rich that have charging places home they can travel the distance the Battery has, beyond that they will have to wait in que to get to a charger.

For the rest of us: Why should we have a car?

Also, let us have some more global warming and climate change, let us melt the glaziers and the permafrost, let us release all the carbon kept in the deep ocean and then go searching for - Another planet.

[doog442]

3 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

If you do not care about destroying the planet in search for materials to make batteries from, plus that the batteries will be made so they are not destroyed by fast charging, as they are now.

For the rich that have charging places home they can travel the distance the battery has, beyond that they will have to wait in que to get to a charger.

For the rest of us: Why should we have a car?

Do you class someone with the capacity to plug a car in at as home rich ? I live in a typical town, about 150,000 folk, the majority are not rich and knowing the area extremely well I'd estimate 70% have the capacity to plug a car in at home. 

I've said before that I'd rather see more Investment in public transport / cycling Infrastructure than public money used to set up charging points (my guess is this will be a joint enterprise.  Regarding Lithium mining I don't know enough about it allegedly destroying the planet.

[Las Palmas]

4 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Do you class someone with the capacity to plug a car in at as home rich ? I live in a typical town, about 150,000 folk, the majority are not rich and knowing the area extremely well I'd estimate 70% have the capacity to plug a car in at home. 

I've said before that I'd rather see more Investment in public transport / cycling Infrastructure than public money used to set up charging points (my guess is this will be a joint enterprise.  Regarding Lithium mining I don't know enough about it allegedly destroying the planet.

Maybe not rich, but fortunate compared to those living in flats where most have no garage space.

The place you live must have a great electric supply net if 70% of people living there shall have electric power enough to charge the cars home.

And to answer the question: Yes. Most of us living in Europe are rich if we compare to the rest of the world.

[Malc]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

I live in a typical town, about 150,000 folk

are you sure this is really " typical "  ?

In my town, ancient ( 1368 ) and bereft of many lamposts ( where dogs pee anyway ) nor space to park outside the terraces, yellow lines etc .....  pray where does one charge-up ? 

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

but isn't the long term idea that charging stations get 'super quick' .

not for the petrol stations, an emphatic NO ............. BP is expanding it's global site space to improve car-fall and inputting, where appropriate, EV charging points too ........  BP ( somewhere I saw in it's published financials ) says it makes at least 50% of it's forecourt profits from direct shopping ...........  not fuel .....  and wishes to delay patrons as much as possible, within reason, to be good footfall thru' those stores 

Malc

[Malc]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:02 AM, Mincey said:

I'd rather have a hydrogen powered IS.

this is I'm quite certain the way we shall be going as soon as the initial ( a few years ) of the EV hype has played out ...  and the lost petroleum tax revenue is made up from the inevitable EV super-road-tax that will be suggested and " reluctantly "  imposed

Malc

[Malc]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Next car for our family will not have a battery for propulsion. Will not be a hybrid and absolutely not a fully EV.

back to the pedal car then .........  " back to the future " maybe ...... ah ! the horseless carriage but with provision for a horse ........  just in case it breaks down

now then ....  how many of the motoring masses have stables I wonder ? ...  good for the roses methinks

Malc

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Maybe not rich, but fortunate compared to those living in flats where most have no garage space.

The place you live must have a great electric supply net if 70% of people living there shall have electric power enough to charge the cars home.

And to answer the question: Yes. Most of us living in Europe are rich if we compare to the rest of the world.

To be fair most contributors on here are from Europe and lets be honest its a luxury car forum so its an apt subject.

Regarding enough electric to supply cars, without doubt the network will be upgraded. 

As I said however I'm on the fence about it, no strong feelings either way but I'm surprised at the anti EV sentiment on the thread.      

[doog442]

19 minutes ago, Malc said:

are you sure this is really " typical "  ?

In my town, ancient ( 1368 ) and bereft of many lamposts ( where dogs pee anyway ) nor space to park outside the terraces, yellow lines etc .....  pray where does one charge-up ? 

not for the petrol stations, an emphatic NO ............. BP is expanding it's global site space to improve car-fall and inputting, where appropriate, EV charging points too ........  BP ( somewhere I saw in it's published financials ) says it makes at least 50% of it's forecourt profits from direct shopping ...........  not fuel .....  and wishes to delay patrons as much as possible, within reason, to be good footfall thru' those stores 

Malc

It's typical of English 'suburbia'. I accept that there are places that will struggle. I wonder if the ability or not to charge an EV from home will impact house prices at some point in the future, in the same way poor broadband might influence buying decisions.  

[Malc]

11 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I wonder if the ability or not to charge an EV from home will impact house prices at some point in the future,

not too sure the absence of EV charging points in Mayfair or Kensington and Chelsea homes will impact too drastically on the prices / values .........  now where's that uber taxi I called !  .........  the sodding EVs run out of juice ... AGAIN 😵

Malc

[ganzoom]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

If you still think electric cars are good for the future – you must be living on a different planet.

Have I said that? What I do know is living in England, living with an EV every day is incredibly easy, infact EASIER than the IS300H as I don't have to visit any petrol stations.

You keep on talking about EVs as though they are some kind of SciFi creation, for me EVs aren't the future they are present, and already the past - our current EV is 4.5 years old.

 

[ganzoom]

5 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Next car for our family will not have a battery for propulsion. Will not be a hybrid and absolutely not a fully EV..

I look forwards to your review of a doing a road trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car......oh wait even they have a Battery.

Please demonstrate with real life experience why hydrogen fuel cells cars are better than EVs. 

We are going to be going on a 1000mile+ road trip from Leicester to Fort William in a few weeks. In our EV its a simple journey, please show me how I could such a trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car, I would love to hear your advice.

[Linas.P]

Yes but that is because you represent minority who have ability to own EV and charge it at home. Just to be clear I am not completely against EVs and I see benefits of owning one is city, however where we need to agree is that this is not solution for majority of population. It just isn't...

I personally seriously considered BMW i8, that is not BEV, but the Battery only range on it was enough for me to get to work in central London, meaning I rarely have to refuel it and I woudl benefit saving £12.5 a day on congestion charge. So I made a lot of enquiries about installing the charging point. Building management company was actually supportive, but freeholder refused to grant permission. As far as I know they have to do risk assessment for entire building again, because car charging was not in original plan and I was told that is very expensive (in a millions?). So I just could not have it... end of story... what is the point of having PHEV or even worse BEV if you can charge it.

This is reality for most of people in the cities and because majority live in the cities, that means for majority in the country... period. You can keep ignoring this fact, but that doesn't change it.

Another statistic which support above is the fact that majority of BEV buyers are no the people who upgrade their existing BEV, to new one... why do you think it is that? Because people who can have BEVs mostly already have them, the rest of the country either can't afford them or can't own them because of practical issues like parking/charging. That is the present. You could argue that in future things will change and they may change, but then don't say it is past, or that it is present. It may be past for you, but for most of the country it is future.

So just admit you do not represent average brit, certainly not majority and that you are in the minority. That is just a fact.

[Las Palmas]

33 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I look forwards to your review of a doing a road trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car......oh wait even they have a battery.

Please demonstrate with real life experience why hydrogen fuel cells cars are better than EVs. 

We are going to be going on a 1000mile+ road trip from Leicester to Fort William in a few weeks. In our EV its a simple journey, please show me how I could such a trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car, I would love to hear your advice.

You miss the problems with making the batteries and the complete waste of power charging them and then using the power. Go on live your life without caring how the way of lifestyle is ruining the life of other not fortunate be live in rich countries. Rich you. Or are you for helping climate change?

[Las Palmas]

25 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Have I said that? What I do know is living in England, living with an EV every day is incredibly easy, infact EASIER than the IS300H as I don't have to visit any petrol stations.

You keep on talking about EVs as though they are some kind of SciFi creation, for me EVs aren't the future they are present, and already the past - our current EV is 4.5 years old.

 

How much of the precious rare earth materials in the Battery do you think can be recycled?

[Las Palmas]

21 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I look forwards to your review of a doing a road trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car......oh wait even they have a battery.

Probably will be on a different forum.

The old Battery type to crank the engine is not made of materials that cannot be recycled.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

I look forwards to your review of a doing a road trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car......oh wait even they have a battery.

Please demonstrate with real life experience why hydrogen fuel cells cars are better than EVs. 

We are going to be going on a 1000mile+ road trip from Leicester to Fort William in a few weeks. In our EV its a simple journey, please show me how I could such a trip in a hydrogen fuel cell car, I would love to hear your advice.

They have tiny Battery, comparable to that one on ICE vehicle and you know it.

HCVs are not better than BEVs, this is silly statement because we know that Battery technology is much more mature (in fact if over 100 years old). However, HCVs are de-facto cleaner, whereas BEVs are de-facto faster. But if we making such comparisons then nobody would be surprised if 1.2L Toyota Yaris would be cleaner but slower than Porsche 911.

You can't do such trip with HCV car simply because you don't have Hydrogen stations near Leicester, but this is good example of your hypocrisy - you see I don't have way of charging BEV at home either. Now assuming you can refuel hydrogen new Leicester (which you currently can't), then the journey to Fort William would be possible and would take about the same time (via Sheffield and Aberdeen for refuel). On top of that let's be honest here - big part of why you chosen Fort William as your destination is because Tesla Supercharger is there (so it is very convenient), but let's not pretend that you don't have to look at the charging points location before you decide if you could go there. Something one never needs to do in ICE car...

 

[doog442]

Yeah lets go to Fort William because its the only place with a Tesla supercharger lol 😆....

It's not actually, there are loads within an hour or so drive, something like 15 ! I'm actually surprised someone would even think that but hey ho. This is the UK not the Hindu Kush the last time I looked. 

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

How much of the precious rare earth materials in the battery do you think can be recycled?

Am not sure why you keep going on about production materials, I have never said anything about sustainability for EVs versus any other form of transportation.

You however keep on going on about hydrogen. So please share with everyone how easy it is to live with a hydrogen fuel cell car. 

[ganzoom]

57 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

On top of that let's be honest here - big part of why you chosen Fort William as your destination is because Tesla Supercharger is there (so it is very convenient)

You are joking right??!!

The trip was planned for last year before Tesla even started building the Supercharger. Fort William is a great location because you are literally in the middle of the Highlands, not that far from Loch Ness. 

The fact Tesla managed to build a Supercharger site there during the pandemic shows just how easy it is to deploy compared to say a hydrogen fuel station.

Once again given you think hydrogen is so great, please tell us how easy it is to drive from Leicester to Scotland in a hydrogen fuel cell car. 

[ColinBarber]

On 7/23/2021 at 11:36 AM, Las Palmas said:

Hydrogen can be produced almost green and if we start to think about producing electricity green instead of building more windmills that are leaving so much impossible to reuse waste material it can be made completely green plus the exhaust is putting out water that is almost as clean as rain from not polluted skies.

Infrastructure is easier to make for hydrogen filling (gas stations exist already) plus many of the combustion engines still used today can be modified to be using hydrogen. A hydrogen car can be filled up (just like a petrol or diesel car) faster than a battery can be charged, and the battery is being destroyed if charged fast enough to compete.

Plus: Hydrogen is going back to the state it was before made hydrogen (water) so it is wasting and polluting = not at all.

To power your hydrogen car you need to take vast amounts of energy for electrolysis, then compression, then transportation before you can fill up, and then you waste a little bit more energy converting back to electricity for the vehicle to move. Only about 30% of the power at source actually is used to move the vehicle. It is extremely inefficient and if people think the electrical infrastructure won't cope with BEVs then it certainly won't with hydrogen vehicles.

The only advantage to hydrogen is the quick filling time, but if the majority of vehicle owners can charge a BEV overnight and the vast majority of their trips are within the range of a single charge then it really isn't an issue. Stopping for charging on long trips is probably a good thing, it will force drives to take a break more often which will make the roads a safer place.

[ganzoom]

11 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

To power your hydrogen car

To even start 'debating' about how to power a hydrogen car the people recommending them to actually follow through with their own advice and buy one.

Action speaks alot louder than words. Anyone who actually believes hydrogen is the future need to show their belief by backing the technology with their own ££££, like I did with EVs some 5 years ago.

Until that happens all this push for hydrogen is just nothing more than hot air.

Am pretty sure Lexus will be making an EV version of the IS and we will have a good look at buying one when it arrives. 

But when will the pro hydrogen forum members here actually buy a hydrogen fuel cell car to show us all how great they are?? This year, next year, 2025?? I really would love to know. In the meantime the rest of the world will be moving on with EVs.

[dutchie01]

Late to the party but an interesting thread. Surprised to see the discussion narrowing about home charging which in my opinion is somewhat of a non topic.

Th current EV market is 100% driven by company car sales. EV s are still expensive and we are only looking at the first/second generation depending on make. The development of batteries and charging is spinning ever faster and cars out now will be outdated in 2/3 yrs. Example Etron next update with new batterypack and faster charging. Audi  Management stating that production of BEV cars will be more profitable than fossil cars in 3 to 4 years so expect at that time BEVś to enter the cheaper segments which are now covered by some chinese and dacia with small batteries. Like it or not EV is here to stay. I am living in the Netherlands and my new companycar will be fully electric. The charging network is extensive enough to do so. High speed chargers 175kw at every highway petrolstation and for instance Shell installing them at EVERY petrolstation in the country. On top of that a wide range of chargingstations available from at least 4 other companies and yes i can also charge at home. But do i need to?  Its not about range but about chargingtimes. Suppose i drive 400 km a week which equals a full e-load. Why would i need to charge at home? 20 mins at a charging station ( or 2 times 10mins) will do the job and i can go on for a week. More powerful batteries, shorter charging times and more chargingstations will secure that home charging will not be needed.