New E10 Fuel

[Tinonline]

Thought this might be of interest:

Courtesy of Gov.uk website: https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/

 

Lexus

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Lexus European petrol models made from January 1998, excluding:

• IS250 2.5 litre V6 with engine 4GR-FSE made between August 2005 and September 2007.
• GS300 3.0 litre V6 with engine 3GR-FSE made between January 2005 and September 2007.
• LS460 4.6 litre V8 with engine 1UR-FSE made between August 2006 and September 2007.

[Howplum]

What's the consensus amongst those of us who run older models? I for one will probably be using Tesco's higher octane alternative instead of an additive. Obviously it's more expensive, but for a limited annual mileage not enough to even consider selling my LS400.

[Tinonline]

Tricky…It’s come in quickly…I’ll do a bit of both.

Later 400’s can run on it - no additive needed. As per above most except above will be ok.

I suppose this has been in the works for a long time so manufacturers have future proofed their vehicles? I don’t understand the exceptions though on this basis.

I’ll run it and see if I can notice any difference: pinking, temp variance, performance changes and mpg etc.

🧐

[DF-300 Sport]

Although my 2JZ V6 gets the 👍......not sure I want to take the chance🤔......if it all goes South, they would say "wear and tear" all day long!

[Malc]

chatting to my indy the other week about this on my 1995 Ls400 .  he thought it should be ok on E10 ......  but there's no definitive answer I've seen anywhere for those of us with " Golden Oldies " ............... and as for Tesco pricing they are the most expensive for fuel around here, on Sheppey, Kent.

Even the local Morrison's is 3p per litre dearer here than their store 4 miles away in Sittingbourne .......  they are all such CHEATS 

Malc

[Malc]

Just reading the "Chuffed " post on here

are they saying that the reduction in mpg with E10 fuel more or less cancels out the increased cost of the Premium Fuel .........  well if that's the case it's a no brainer but to fill up with the premium grade stuff ...  which is still, they say E5 based

Your thoughts please guys

Malc

[Malc]

Everyone ...  dos anyone have an answer please ..  or some thought process that's useful here please ?

Average price of Premium Fuel compared to average price of the old 95 now E10  octane fuel ............  and the likely %%% reduction in mpg from the old 95 E10

How does this stack up with %%% increase in average fuel consumption to cover those same miles AND the effect of increased bad emissions ( CO2 etc ) from the increased fuel consumption, albeit no longer E10 but old fashioned Premium Fuel ? or even indeed the old fashioned E5 fuel !

Have I explained myself ok ..  it's challenging for me to know

I'm trying to get at the likelihood that replacing E5 with E10 will actually result in greater emissions into the atmosphere due to more ltrs per same miles driven

and together with the likely extra costs incurred by switching to premium Fuel covering those same miles rather than staying with ( if one could ) the old E5

The latter is a bit spurious I guess as the old E5 has now vanished

Thank you

Malc

[NemesisUK]

Unless you are doing intergalactic mileages the extra cost should be minimal, perhaps £5-8 per tank full. Just don't have that Costa coffee!

I've used nothing but V-Power in my cars for the last ~10yrs

 

[J Henderson]

I filled my car with E10 last week. Already it seems like that's the only thing available at the pumps now in terms of normal unleaded.

I won't be buying it again though. The performance and economy suffered a noticeable drop-off. 

[Tinonline]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:49 PM, J Henderson said:

I filled my car with E10 last week. Already it seems like that's the only thing available at the pumps now in terms of normal unleaded.

I won't be buying it again though. The performance and economy suffered a noticeable drop-off. 

Yes I’ve had a rethink…agree with the comments and will be sticking to E5. I do modest mileage. 
 

It’s greener to keep older cars on the road than scrap them to build new, particularly with toxic, inefficient Battery tech.

[Malc]

I topped up yesterday with Premium Unleaded 97 octane E5 fuel at 137.7p / ltr at my local'ish Morrison's in Sittingbourne ...  

their E10 95 Octane is 130.7p / ltr ....  they're right close to the Asda store too, so competition there and I haven't yet checked them out for E5 availability

In passing I checked out the ( non-kiosk ) self-serve Sainsbury's in Faversham and there was NO Premium on offer

There's a few other fuel stations close by too so next time, or when just passing, I'll check to see if they even have the E5 on sale

So from now on it's E5 premium 97 octane for me

The Honda Legend is still good to go on the E10 they tell me

Malc

[Malc]

Blimey ...  put a few gallons into the 1932 Triumph Southern Cross Sports Tourer at the weekend ......  Esso Premium unleaded ( to which we add stuff whatever ) and that was 99 Octane ( red star )  Premium at 155.9p a litre .......... gulp !

Malc

[flotsam]

That list refers to post 1998 cars.

I'm assuming that they can't use E10 not because the ethanol damages the car, but because the lower octane rating means the engine won't run properly.

With ethanol having about two thirds the energy of petrol, you get about 1.66667% less. Super unleaded, which is still E5 is about 2.3% more expensive where I live.

My energy bills from Utilita have gone up too: 

Here's a breakdown of how our prices are changing:

Electricity    Until 30 September    After 1 October

First Rate    31.836p    34.040p

Saver Rate    17.811p    19.800p

First Rate is charged for the first 2kWh used per day and Saver Rate is charged for the remaining kWh used per day. All prices include VAT.

Gas    Until 30 September    After 1 October

First Rate    21.198p    21.414p

Saver Rate    2.957p    3.984p

2.957 to 3.984 is almost 35% !!!!!!

[Malc]

I'm having a little bit of a row with Southern Water right now about their seemingly surreptitious charge increases too ....  mine's up about 30% this past month or so it seems ...  it's all these little niggling " slight " uplifts in prices that dig into us 

My Council Tax seems to have increased too by about 7% ...........  oh, and my Lloyds Bank interest rate they tell me has just been reduced, later this month to

0.01%   but that's ok coz it's in a tax free ISA ....  wooweeee

Bring on the V8s eh ! petrol prices up up up and I don't mind 

Malc

[Phil xxkr]

4 hours ago, flotsam said:

That list refers to post 1998 cars.

I'm assuming that they can't use E10 not because the ethanol damages the car, but because the lower octane rating means the engine won't run properly.

With ethanol having about two thirds the energy of petrol, you get about 1.66667% less. Super unleaded, which is still E5 is about 2.3% more expensive where I live.

My energy bills from Utilita have gone up too: 

Here's a breakdown of how our prices are changing:

Electricity    Until 30 September    After 1 October

First Rate    31.836p    34.040p

Saver Rate    17.811p    19.800p

First Rate is charged for the first 2kWh used per day and Saver Rate is charged for the remaining kWh used per day. All prices include VAT.

Gas    Until 30 September    After 1 October

First Rate    21.198p    21.414p

Saver Rate    2.957p    3.984p

2.957 to 3.984 is almost 35% !!!!!!

Yet again another indicator of the transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest, West to the East. The saddest part is the effect not on the bottom quartile, for those the state is more than generous, but its the next two who studiously go to work every day, pay taxes at the level of usuary, and don't have a voice - who speaks for them? Today I was told one of the reasons for HGV drivers is HS2. Apparently HS2 digger and forklift drivers with zero responsibility, and sociable hours get paid £20+ an hour, why would you wish to drive a lorry? And all Public money!!! Just like this insane drive towards "greener idiology" and the unintended consequences for which no one will ever be accountable. 

[ColinBarber]

6 hours ago, flotsam said:

I'm assuming that they can't use E10 not because the ethanol damages the car, but because the lower octane rating means the engine won't run properly.

No, because 95 E5 and 95 E10 both have the same minimum octane rating of RON 95 - that doesn't change. Octane is a measurement of knock/compression resistance, not energy - 95 E5 and E10 are blended to achieve the same rating.

The 1998 cut off is because they don't have records/don't want to research further back/want to sell you a new vehicle rather than the vehicle is definitely not compatible with E10.

[Tinonline]

This is interesting…

I thought that it was the fuel system: joints, seals, pumps, injector seals and internals that were prone to wear and damage from low grade/E10 fuel and anti knock is critical…that’s core engine performance and   sustainability.

So how then can % performance and economy be less with the new E10?

[ambermarine]

The government have hoards of anonymous people devising strategies to remove older vehicles from the roads barring downright banning of said vehicles because that would cost them money in compensation.

This ethanol caper is just another one of them, it makes you pay if you try to circumnavigate the use and eventually the refineries will stop producing older type fuels because the vehicles that use it are getting less and the cracking of oil in refineries is a very energy intensive exercise, another reason to dispense with this type of fuel.

Lets face it the march of time goes on and the ideas of the new order are thrust upon us, like it or not the freedom to choose is now very limited.

[Phil xxkr]

28 minutes ago, ambermarine said:

The government have hoards of anonymous people devising strategies to remove older vehicles from the roads barring downright banning of said vehicles because that would cost them money in compensation.

This ethanol caper is just another one of them, it makes you pay if you try to circumnavigate the use and eventually the refineries will stop producing older type fuels because the vehicles that use it are getting less and the cracking of oil in refineries is a very energy intensive exercise, another reason to dispense with this type of fuel.

Lets face it the march of time goes on and the ideas of the new order are thrust upon us, like it or not the freedom to choose is now very limited.

Well said Phil 

[Tinonline]

10 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Well said Phil 

Here here: the petro chemical industry has had years to come up with viable alternatives but has failed.

Like the tobacco industry, they’ll pile and bail out stashing their cash in to the likely winning tech or solutions…

I wonder where the trad oil producing counties will go…back into the grains of sand they came from?

[flotsam]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:27 PM, ColinBarber said:

No, because 95 E5 and 95 E10 both have the same minimum octane rating of RON 95 - that doesn't change. Octane is a measurement of knock/compression resistance, not energy - 95 E5 and E10 are blended to achieve the same rating.

The 1998 cut off is because they don't have records/don't want to research further back/want to sell you a new vehicle rather than the vehicle is definitely not compatible with E10.

Then we're being played! I read one article which claimed that the new E10 had increased the octane rating, but I couldn't find any reference to the old E5 RON. I still don't see why E5 didn't corrode components but E10 might.

[flotsam]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:07 AM, ambermarine said:

The government have hoards of anonymous people devising strategies to remove older vehicles from the roads barring downright banning of said vehicles because that would cost them money in compensation.

This ethanol caper is just another one of them, it makes you pay if you try to circumnavigate the use and eventually the refineries will stop producing older type fuels because the vehicles that use it are getting less and the cracking of oil in refineries is a very energy intensive exercise, another reason to dispense with this type of fuel.

Lets face it the march of time goes on and the ideas of the new order are thrust upon us, like it or not the freedom to choose is now very limited.

And it's a reversal of the "Cash for Clunkers" policy. The Covid-19 scam had my local shopping mall forcing shoppers to walk in specific directions. Obviously, this is to deter shoppers. The supermarkets made people queue outside. Trolleys were reduced in number. Items on shelves went missing intermittently. Hyperstagflation here we come!

[BigBoomer]

E5 allowed up to 5% Ethanol in the fuel.
E10 requires between 9% and 10% Ethanol in the fuel.
E5 was actually only 2% or at best 3% Ethanol, so we have actually gone from 3% to at least 9% so have tripled the Ethanol content.
In a modern car (post 1998) you should lose very little performance, but it will use 1-2% more fuel.
In an older car, you will see a slight drop in performance due to the lower energy density of Ethanol, mostly because the ECU has not been setup to handle E10.

The serious issues with E10 are that the extra ethanol affects certain types of plastic and rubber which can lead to fuel leaks or debris getting into your fuel system. Additionally, it absorbs more water which leads to rust if any of the fuel system is made from steel. Vehicles that are certified E10 safe should not be affected by this. Vehicles that are not certified E10 safe may have components made from incompatible plastic/rubber or have steel fuel tanks.

Now that I am no longer commuting I use E5 97-99RON in my LS430 even though it is E10 95RON compatible.
I ran it on E5 95RON for nearly 40k miles whilst I was commuting and it ran fine even though the manual calls for 96RON or higher.

The Octane Rating is the same, regardless of whether it is E5 or E10 or E85.
The use of lots more ethanol in fuel allows the use of higher compression ratios due to the cooling effect of ethanol so it produces more power.
The Koenigsegg CCXR produces 20% more power than their equivalent sized E5 engine, simply because it runs on E85.

[Malc]

and in simplistic terms ...........  I take it that this means that on E10 my 1995 Ls400 will perish.......  and the plastic fuel cap will disintegrate into the petrol tank ........... and the ECU will have to work especially wonderful, like Japanese technology does , to prevent that debris being drawn into the fuel lines and stopping me driving at 0 - 60 mph in less than the 3.6 seconds I can now do on the super-doopa  E5 97 octane Premium Unleaded fuel from Morrison's at 137.7p per litre 

By the way, I have yet to prove the advanced acceleration of 0 - 60 mph that I'm thinking I can now achieve on Premium Unleaded 97 Octane ........  but I'm sure expecting improved fuel consumption ...................for sure

vide: drove 225 miles to Newmarket and back M11, M25 and M2 mostly 70 mph and then to Faversham and return ( local roads ) all from home and achieved 27mpg overall .............. tank full to tank full measuring ......  not bad for a 26 year old lady 4ltr V8 unmolested engine etc, serviced annually and now on 234k miles 

Malc

[BigBoomer]

Oh boy are you gonna be disappointed 🤣
Maybe if you fitted JATOs to it. 🤣🤣

I wouldn't be using E10 in a 95 LS400 either. 
Chances are the plastic filler cap would be fine, but parts of the fuel pump, fuel level sender, various o-rings and seals are almost certainly not E10 compatible.