Odd French behemoth seen earlier.....

superatticman · June 21, 2021

A Renault Vel Satis.

Never seen one before, reminded me of an oversize Mégane of the same generation. Could be wrong but something tells me that car is as electrically complicated as the control centre on the Metropolitan line. And probably about as reliable........!!!

Looks like it comes with a fair range of engines mind.

Mossypossy · June 21, 2021

Was tempted a few years ago.

Kind of like the VW Phaeton. Where the company made a loss with each car sold.

Other nominations.

Saab 9000.

steve2006 · June 21, 2021

Talking of French cars and their electrics I just googled the car and the second listing was a wiring diagram 😀

Las Palmas · June 21, 2021

Must be pretty reliable.

One here for sale with 600.000km.

Herbie · June 21, 2021

The Renault Vel Satis and the rest of its family fell from the top of the Ugly Tree and hit every branch on the way down. Hideous things.

superatticman · June 21, 2021

17 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Must be pretty reliable.

One here for sale with 600.000km.

Has a decent engine range mind.

'standard' 2L and 2.2L diesels and a 2 litre turbo petrol.

An fairly impressive 'best fit of all' 3L diesel unit and a quite brutal sounding 3.5L petrol available.

Dare I say was that mileage racked up in the 3L diesel?

Las Palmas · June 21, 2021

1 minute ago, superatticman said:

Has a decent engine range mind.

'standard' 2L and 2.2L diesels and a 2 litre turbo petrol.

An fairly impressive 'best fit of all' 3L diesel unit and a quite brutal sounding 3.5L petrol available.

Dare I say was that mileage racked up in the 3L diesel?

Correct. You won a medal.

First_Lexus · June 21, 2021

28 minutes ago, Herbie said:

The Renault Vel Satis and the rest of its family fell from the top of the Ugly Tree and hit every branch on the way down. Hideous things.

Brave design, different in a terribly French way. Always wanted one, but I’m not as brave as the designers were. The Avantime is a future classic and even bolder.

superatticman · June 21, 2021

Renault Engine? Didn't even know they made anything with a Diesel V6 even in 2002. That 3.5 petrol too...French made?

Las Palmas · June 21, 2021

Whosoever say that French cars are not reliable have not been in mountain areas in Africa. The long living R4 are still driving around as taxi and the Peugeot 504 pickup can easily transport 10 people plus what they have bought on market back home.

superatticman · June 21, 2021

10 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Correct. You won a medal.

2 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Whosoever say that French cars are not reliable have not been in mountain areas in Africa. The long living R4 are still driving around as taxi and the Peugeot 504 pickup can easily transport 10 people plus what they have bought on market back home.

I think their 'low tech' designs from the 80s can be pretty tough. Was loads of 505s still running about in Cairo a few years ago.

That Vel Satis though....just seems to ooze of 'money pit'!!!!

Spacewagon52 · June 21, 2021

57 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Whosoever say that French cars are not reliable have not been in mountain areas in Africa. The long living R4 are still driving around as taxi and the Peugeot 504 pickup can easily transport 10 people plus what they have bought on market back home.

Simple engineering that can fixed by the local handyman. It sometimes makes you think, could we produce a basic vehicle without all the gubbins?

Probably not with the latest safety legislation. There would probably not be a market here anyway ......... but for export?

royoftherovers · June 21, 2021

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

The Renault Vel Satis and the rest of its family fell from the top of the Ugly Tree and hit every branch on the way down. Hideous things.

Vel Satis and Avantime too ?

royoftherovers · June 21, 2021

7 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Simple engineering that can fixed by the local handyman. It sometimes makes you think, could we produce a basic vehicle without all the gubbins?

Probably not with the latest safety legislation. There would probably not be a market here anyway ......... but for export?

Dacia, pretty basic and owned by Renault I think?

Spacewagon52 · June 21, 2021

Just now, royoftherovers said:

Dacia, pretty basic and owned by Renault I think?

I was thinking of something more basic but Dacia have sold quite a few vehicles. Spoke to a guy who was buying his third Duster - he thought they were reliable and did what it said on the tin! I have also read about reliability issues, particularly with the petrol versions. It is Renault based ..... enough said!

Herbie · June 21, 2021

28 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Vel Satis and Avantime too ?

Yes indeed John, both as ugly as an ugly thing on World Ugly Day :sick:

Las Palmas · June 21, 2021

37 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Vel Satis and Avantime too ?

Yes, it is sometimes hard to understand that French fashion is the brand it is.

35 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Dacia, pretty basic and owned by Renault I think?

Yes and popular too.

32 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

I was thinking of something more basic but Dacia have sold quite a few vehicles. Spoke to a guy who was buying his third Duster - he thought they were reliable and did what it said on the tin! I have also read about reliability issues, particularly with the petrol versions. It is Renault based ..... enough said!

Renault have made some extremely reliable engines. The R4, R12, R16 rarely broke down in the mountains. The Peugeot 604 we had was thirsty, but never missed a beat. Cars driving in mountains are having a hearder job than those in pancake flat countries.

First_Lexus · June 22, 2021

7 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Dacia, pretty basic and owned by Renault I think?

I believe the current Dacia Sandero is based on the latest Renault Clio, so not as basic and outdated as you might think. Mind you, What Car? have just withdrawn their ‘Car of the Year’ award from it because the crash test results were poor…

dutchie01 · June 22, 2021

The Dacia's and the VelSatis and Avantime could not be further apart. The latter two were apparently projects from someone in the board leaving his own mark on the brand, a bit like all French presidents doing some prestige building at horrific expense ( taxpayers money though). Both cars are full of French quirkiness and the designers most likely got the instruction to do all different than normal. Needless to say both cars failed hopelessly as nobody was interested. Dacia on the other hand just produces what customers are asking for nothing more nothing less. Cheap transport for the masses. They now even have a BEV, the Spring and of course sold at rock bottom prices. Honest products and nobody expects more than what they promise. So far dacia is a storming success by listening to their customers.

First_Lexus · June 22, 2021

10 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The Dacia's and the VelSatis and Avantime could not be further apart. The latter two were apparently projects from someone in the board leaving his own mark on the brand, a bit like all French presidents doing some prestige building at horrific expense ( taxpayers money though). Both cars are full of French quirkiness and the designers most likely got the instruction to do all different than normal. Needless to say both cars failed hopelessly as nobody was interested. Dacia on the other hand just produces what customers are asking for nothing more nothing less. Cheap transport for the masses. They now even have a BEV, the Spring and of course sold at rock bottom prices. Honest products and nobody expects more than what they promise. So far dacia is a storming success by listening to their customers.

The tragedy of cars like the Vel Satis and Avantime is about the inability of the British consumer to dare to be different. Go back to the 1970s and French luxury cars like the Renault 30, Peugeot 604 and Citroen CX were relatively common, along with Italian and Japanese options like the Alfa 90, Datsun Laurel and Toyota Crown.

Unfortunately, at some stage we seem to have become obsessed that the only luxury choice was German, or at a push a Volvo, Rover, Jaguar or Daimler. As the German options became the default ‘middle management’ choice - think marble lions outside a ghastly mock Tudor new build - it became increasingly difficult to choose much else, as the consensus was that a German car meant status and luxury. Hence later cars like the Vel Satis, Alfa 164, Peugeot 607 etc etc. failed.

Were they that much worse than the German competition? Probably not. They were certainly different, mainly focussing on comfort rather than some illusion of ‘sportiness’ and ‘racing car’ handling - convincing a generation of middle management photocopier salesman from Telford that they really needed to drive a German car to prove to their peers that they were ‘doing well.’

I think it’s all rather sad. Perhaps Lexus as a brand is the heir to the ‘being different’ mantle once the preserve of the French luxury car? I certainly enjoy being different in my choice. And for the record, I’ve often hankered after a Vel Satis or an Avantime, or some other long forgotten luxury barge!

Herbie · June 22, 2021

59 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

The tragedy of cars like the Vel Satis and Avantime is about the inability of the British consumer to dare to be different. Go back to the 1970s and French luxury cars like the Renault 30, Peugeot 604 and Citroen CX were relatively common, along with Italian and Japanese options like the Alfa 90, Datsun Laurel and Toyota Crown.

Unfortunately, at some stage we seem to have become obsessed that the only luxury choice was German, or at a push a Volvo, Rover, Jaguar or Daimler. As the German options became the default ‘middle management’ choice - think marble lions outside a ghastly mock Tudor new build - it became increasingly difficult to choose much else, as the consensus was that a German car meant status and luxury. Hence later cars like the Vel Satis, Alfa 164, Peugeot 607 etc etc. failed.

Were they that much worse than the German competition? Probably not. They were certainly different, mainly focussing on comfort rather than some illusion of ‘sportiness’ and ‘racing car’ handling - convincing a generation of middle management photocopier salesman from Telford that they really needed to drive a German car to prove to their peers that they were ‘doing well.’

I think it’s all rather sad. Perhaps Lexus as a brand is the heir to the ‘being different’ mantle once the preserve of the French luxury car? I certainly enjoy being different in my choice. And for the record, I’ve often hankered after a Vel Satis or an Avantime, or some other long forgotten luxury barge!

It doesn't matter how technically or mechanically good they are, if a car is piggin' ugly no one's going to buy it, at least not in enough numbers to make it a success.

Las Palmas · June 22, 2021

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

I think it’s all rather sad. Perhaps Lexus as a brand is the heir to the ‘being different’ mantle once the preserve of the French luxury car? I certainly enjoy being different in my choice. And for the record, I’ve often hankered after a Vel Satis or an Avantime, or some other long forgotten luxury barge!

The French cars were not bad, but very different and it takes time to get to use the funny gear shifting in the Renault 4, but it did function well. The floating and sailing Dyane 6 was impossible to tilt even if some passengers could get seasick in them (the first generation MB A-class did have a terrible handling and did roll over when tested in Sweden), the Peugeot 604 was comfortable even on the worst rocky mountain roads. My wife found the 604 much better than the 250S MB we had before.

I am afraid our Lexus are not the next common brand here in Europe. Build is great and the old ones are going to be around for a long time, but seeing almost no new registered here and knowing the service is poor I believe Lexus is going to be a rare sight in the future. Most new hybrids are: very many Hyundai, some Toyota mostly Prius (taxi), Auris, Corolla and even some Ford. Hyundai seems to have half of the market (except for the taxi market) and the rest is a mix of the others; very few Lexus. Probably too expensive when compared to what you get for your cash when buying other brands. There are many electric cars too but only the largest supermarkets have parking places with charger and only one or two, so electric are for people with own houses, which are few compared to how many living in flats.

Our next car will not be one with a big hybrid Battery and also not one fully electric if the CT will last till hydrogen combustion engine cars are available. Toyota has made the best gear shifting system and has been working and developing hydrogen engines since 1970 and today I believe they are not far from being able to start selling and Toyota has economic muscle to build fuel stations making these cars far more interesting than the, soon no longer possible to produce, gigantic batteries needed in electric cars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

The Mirai is only bettered in fuel economy by one Hyundai, but that car has a hybrid Battery in it as well, so I think it is not an interesting car.

https://global.toyota/en/mobility/tnga/powertrain2018/cvt/

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Toyota-s-hydrogen-engine-car-roars-through-24-hour-enduro

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/35209996.html

We are supposed to give the planet to our children in at least as good a condition as we received it and so far we are very far from doing this due to the stupid politicians we have elected and our own greed.

Las Palmas · June 22, 2021

13 minutes ago, Herbie said:

It doesn't matter how technically or mechanically good they are, if a car is piggin' ugly no one's going to buy it, at least not in enough numbers to make it a success.

If you are able to define ugly you can make a lot of money as a designer. Ugly is not same for all. The eye of the beholder.

My eye does not find beauty in the big SUV that are so popular now. Practical but beautiful?

superatticman · June 22, 2021

6 minutes ago, Herbie said:

It doesn't matter how technically or mechanically good they are, if a car is piggin' ugly no one's going to buy it, at least not in enough numbers to make it a success.

This was a problem with the Ford Scorpio. The reasonable, conservative looking early 90s Granada was turned into a hideous looking car. Sure, it was comfy, reasonably reliable, fairly low cost luxury. But you wouldn't have been seen dead in it.

First_Lexus · June 22, 2021

17 minutes ago, Herbie said:

It doesn't matter how technically or mechanically good they are, if a car is piggin' ugly no one's going to buy it, at least not in enough numbers to make it a success.

Whether something is beautiful or ugly is an opinion, rather than a fact. If the media had hailed those Renault designs as ‘cutting edge’ (or similar) then the prevailing opinion now would doubtless be different…

…I’m very happy to say I don’t think they’re ugly at all. Brave, different, lots of interesting angles - but not ugly. In my opinion.