Lexus PHEV end of 2021 and full EV in 2022

[DanD]

Details are still scant, but it's a start...

https://www.motor1.com/news/508226/lexus-phev-ev-schedule/ 

[Linas.P]

Sadly another boring SUV... what they expect the customers who wants normal cars to do? 

[Zotto]

Linas, anyway you would call it "boring electric" 🙂

[Linas.P]

Despite reservations about benefit and feasibility of BEVs, I am not against idea of electric propulsion in cars as long as it is provided in truly competitive product - not funded by public and not forced upon the population.

That said - could you please point me to the direction of feasible BEV sports coupe, GT coupe or even Luxury saloon? I exclude Tesla here, because Tesla is technology company and they don't make cars, they make technical feasibility study on the wheels... Teslas are horrible cars when it comes to reliability, build quality etc. And as far as I know they make no coupes for the time being.

I mean if there would be EV version of Lexus RC or LC, I would be very interested. However, the news refers to yet another boring SUV... as I said.

[subria88]

I would expect based off the rumours the PHEV for 2021 is the new NX as the current gen RAV4 gained a PHEV version last year. The NX will update to base off the current gen RAV4 (TNGA platform)

[hockeyedwards]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Despite reservations about benefit and feasibility of BEVs, I am not against idea of electric propulsion in cars as long as it is provided in truly competitive product - not funded by public and not forced upon the population.

That said - could you please point me to the direction of feasible BEV sports coupe, GT coupe or even Luxury saloon? I exclude Tesla here, because Tesla is technology company and they don't make cars, they make technical feasibility study on the wheels... Teslas are horrible cars when it comes to reliability, build quality etc. And as far as I know they make no coupes for the time being.

I mean if there would be EV version of Lexus RC or LC, I would be very interested. However, the news refers to yet another boring SUV... as I said.

Porsche Taycan (kind of)
Audi e-tron GT
Polestar 1
Very old but Mercedes SLS electric 😛
I realise none of them are Lexus/ Toyota products but they are examples...

Some jap manufacturers are just starting to come forward with more BEV options other than city cars or SUV's, so maybe exercise some patience and you may be rewarded 😉

I know you love to say another boring SUV, but if that is the market demand, why would they make anything else and considering the market is still very much a combustion engine one, the small % of BEV vehicles MUST be a popular type, otherwise, why would they bother? Also us 'petrol heads' are a minority, so our % market share of cars purchased is finite compared to your average person/ household. If these 'boring cars' start the EV interest and that eventually moves into coupes/ GT's then so be it.

[hockeyedwards]

1 hour ago, subria88 said:

PHEV for 2021 is the new NX as the current gen RAV4 gained a PHEV version last year.

Yeah i think this is correct, 450h+ is the likely engine name, with the + denoting plug in capability, wondering if they will still offer a non plug in hybrid alongside? Also the battery/ motor providers that Toyota have partnered with are somewhat exciting too. Intrigued to see how it all pans out. The Lexus concepts are always a treat and production cars are close in likeness, so perhaps some super futuristic looking models to come 🙂

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, hockeyedwards said:

Porsche Taycan (kind of)
Audi e-tron GT
Polestar 1
Very old but Mercedes SLS electric 😛

I realise none of them are Lexus/ Toyota products but they are examples...

I didn't say it has to be Toyota or Lexus - any feasible GT coupe or sport coupe ... 

Obviously definition of "feasible" is personal thing, so what I define as feasible is a mass produced car with, with at least 300 miles range, under 6s 0-60 and the price up-to or just around £40k new. That is sort of the price/ performance where Tesla Model 3 sits, meaning it is possible to make EV coupe which is "feasible", yet nobody makes one yet. 

Your list doesn't have any feasible EV coupe either - Taycan, E-tron GT and MB EQS are not Coupes, despite it being in their name. They are all Saloons. But even then they are feasible... by which I mean they all costs ~£100k. The most viable would be Tesla Model S/3, but as I said Tesla is not a car - it is experiment on wheels. 

Old SLS Electric, again not feasible - only 100 made and now sells at around £500k a piece and it could only do like 40 miles range.

Polestar is not electric, but it is PHEV, but again it is horrible and it is limited production and costs £140k... for what is essentially 2 door version of Volvo S90 which costs £60k... so again not feasible car. If we looking into PHEV examples, then the closest to feasible is used BMW i8, but at original £100k price not so much.

The rest what you said are all valid points, but does not defeat my point that market is filled with "boring" SUVs and Lexus is going to introduce another boring SUV.

As for market "wanting SUVS" - that seems like chicken and egg situation... 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, hockeyedwards said:

Yeah i think this is correct, 450h+ is the likely engine name, with the + denoting plug in capability, wondering if they will still offer a non plug in hybrid alongside? Also the battery/ motor providers that Toyota have partnered with are somewhat exciting too. Intrigued to see how it all pans out. The Lexus concepts are always a treat and production cars are close in likeness, so perhaps some super futuristic looking models to come 🙂

Yes so the 450h+ is the 302hp plug in hybrid and the 350h will be the non plug in variant. Expect the NX450h to be circa £50k hence the 350h is needed to bridge the gap. 

There is an all electric SUV coming. I believe the ES is going to have some form of electric propulsion as well with Direct4 system fitted.

[Zotto]

I had the chance to test drive a Tesla Model 3  in only RWD version, and I found it very fast  and really not bad about performance, even if I would not buy it as I would miss the luxury of Lexus models.

Have you seen this Chinese car?

(112) NIO ET7 - Can It Conquer The World? - YouTube

[Barry14UK]

How about this Ford Mustang made to look coupelike?  Not this version but GT version said to do 0-60 in 3 seconds. 

 

[hockeyedwards]

16 hours ago, Linas.P said:

BMW i8

Had actually forgot about this, one of the OG's haha!

Also in general, i'm not disagreeing with you in terms of where the market is at, but the SUV demand must be there, especially for manufacturers to warrant sticking their performance engines in them as well as offering the average joe spec?

Also agreed that none of them are in general 'feasible' hence why I have 3 cars with combustion engines (albeit the NX is hybrid) because you are correct, the range isn't there for me to warrant any interest in an electric car (for now). However, not everyone wants 300 miles range.

The lack of range for me is secondary to charge time/ charging experience. I couldn't do business where I had to plan by day around charge times/ queues to get a charger, would drive me insane. I could cope with 100 mile range if the recharge time was the equivalent of fueling up, but infrastructure takes time, planning and investment (lol at UK government accomplishing such things!)

16 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Your list doesn't have any feasible EV coupe either

 I knew that, was just playing devils advocate 😛

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, hockeyedwards said:

The lack of range for me is secondary to charge time/ charging experience.

That is absolutely the single biggest issue for me at the moment, and I would argue BEVs market overall. If EVs would charge quickly, say 100 miles in 15s (somewhat comparable for petrol), then they could have 100 miles range and still would be fine for me... I could plan my driving around stopping every 100 miles... because let's face it - I probably would need to stop anyway... for coffee, for pee or just to stretch legs. Could I drive more - yes I probably could, but thinking about average long drive I had say London to Snowdonia or Lake District... we would stop 2, 3 maybe even 4 times... if not for me then for passengers. So then it just becomes the matter of having charging infrastructure. And when I say 100 miles I mean actual 100 miles as a worse case scenario... Because most of current 180 miles BEVs would barely do 100 miles with everything on (heater, AC, music, 4 people with their stuff etc). And you certainly don't want to be "that EV driver" when everyone comes back to the car after climbing the mountain in the rain and you say you could not put heater and AC on because that means not reaching home and getting stuck in the middle of nowhere... Obviously, 100 miles would be annoying for Euro Trips, because there you can do serious miles and only limiting factor is car range... even say my IS250 was not the best with ~350miles, compared to say BMW 530D, where you can cruise 600miles @120MPH all day long. 

Sure if somebody does it everyday say for work and they need to stop 5 times before reaching the client, that is not ideal, but then maybe they don't need GT coupe either. 

@Barry14UK ... 😁 nahhh still SUV. If they make same car just ... actual Mustang, then absolutely.

@Zotto Tesla for performance - absolutely, have no issue with that, but when it comes to luxury and built quality they are pile of garbage. Chinese smartphone on the wheels... that would be accurate description of Tesla.

@rayaans Actually, I am quite "sad" about these 450h+ news if they true. I have always said that issue with Lexus range was lack of engine choices and 300h turned out not to be that universal engine which meets everyone's expectations. Likewise I said if only 300h would have larger Battery and more powerful electric engine maybe (sounds like 350h) or plug-in capability like BMW330e (sounds like 450h+) then IS and RC would be great cars. 

So now when they had discontinued both IS and RC... they finally bringing those engines in! Damn you Lexus!

[dutchie01]

14 hours ago, Zotto said:

ave you seen this Chinese car?

(112) NIO ET7 - Can It Conquer The World? - YouTube

NIO is only 1 of the Chinese car manufacturers that are about to enter the EU market. China is by far the biggest car market in the world and the Chinese government is pushing for BEV's granting permissions for manufacturing etc. Volkswagen is producing in China in a joint venture EV's as well as BMW and Mercedes but we will now see Chinese cars making it this way. ( Chinese Teslas already do).

www.nio.com

www.lixiang.com

www.byd.com

www.global.geely.com

https://en.xiapeng.com

All these companies are not to be underestimated and financially very strong. Geely is currently the largest and most known over here owning both Volvo cars and Lotus. Lynk&Co is their next global brand.

Another movement is that Chinese tech giants are getting involved in BEV manufacturing. Companies like Baidu ( Chinese google) Alibaba and Huawei are teaming up or buying vast amounts of shares in the above names. Baidu for instance is starting to build cars with Geely. The " older" ( relative in China) car manufacturers have the manufacturing skills and supply chain and the tech comes from Baidu.

I also expect some manufacturers to start producing BEV platforms only and supply other manufacturers that use it for their cars. Lotus for instance is developing such a thing as we speak. 

In short the automotive landscape is changing at a dizzying pace and China will claim a strong role in the Global market soon. Where does that leave traditional dinosaurs like GM, Ford, Fiat etc?  time will tell.

 

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

All these companies are not to be underestimated and financially very strong

In short the automotive landscape is changing at a dizzying pace and China will claim a strong role in the Global market soon. Where does that leave traditional dinosaurs like GM, Ford, Fiat etc?  time will tell.

Understanding how business works in China that isn't surprising, when these companies are basically controlled at high level from CCP.

Considering most large companies in China receives what could be considered unfair "state aid", I think this will lead to more protectionism in EU and US. Basically, adding punitive import duties thus making Chinese cars uncompetitive here (same as China does to "foreign" cars in China).

 

[dutchie01]

47 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Understanding how business works in China that isn't surprising, when these companies are basically controlled at high level from CCP.

Considering most large companies in China receives what could be considered unfair "state aid", I think this will lead to more protectionism in EU and US. Basically, adding punitive import duties thus making Chinese cars uncompetitive here (same as China does to "foreign" cars in China).

 

that could well happen if they start to become a real threat to home manufacturers. Already lots of import duties/tariffs on other products from China

[DanD]

I'm guessing that the new NX will be based on the new Toyota bZ4X?

[dutchie01]

 

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

13 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

 

 

 

 

Yeah... but is kind of irrelevant... this is not addressing an issue with the time BEVs takes to charge... sure they can find things for me to do whilst it charges and make additional money out of me, but that is not what I want. I don't want to stop for 2 hours every ~200 miles to go into stinky theme park with random people or indeed visit Oxford. Nor I want to own an expensive and luxurious car, just to be put into the stinky bus with other dirty people and their kids, and to be driven to the city centre like animal, nor I want to be sticking to the schedule of any sort. If I have to get a bus for last 5 miles of my journey, that defeats the purpose of having the car in first place - what is the difference from just getting the bus to Oxford then? 

And this idea defeats itself on so many levels. They kind of took an issue of ICEs going into city centre, but converted it to BEVs... What is the point of park and ride if you already have an electric car... sure I understand that ICEs are not great for city centres due to pollution, but that is key advantage of EVs... so if I have EV, then I expect to be allowed to drive right into the middle of the city. Not to ride a nasty bus!

In short what I expect from personal transportation experience - I want to drive door to door and if I ever need to stop, then I want to stop, grab a coffee, kick the tyres and move on in max 3-5 minutes. That is why people own their own cars instead of just using public transport.

[Mr Vlad]

Nice idea that Oxford super charging hub. Trouble is it'll be for the very latest versions of electric cars which can be charged within minutes not the cars that have been out 2,3, 4 years. Thing with electric cars although they are in essence really good but they're just not quite good enough yet to make one sell their petrol/diesel car for one.

I've seen just today that video about the Nio ET7. It looks superb and the spec outstanding. Trouble is it'll be expensive. 

As for Lexus PHEV well they're really slow on the uptake but I suspect when they do eventually get those models out they'll be terrific. Then full electric the year after? I don't think so but withbthe advent of what's gonna come out of China then maybe but with help from the Chinese. 

 

[dutchie01]

 

[Linas.P]

Actually, interesting video for consideration...

I think what many people still don't understand is how tiny the EV market really is. It is less than 10% of new cars and less than 1% of all cars on roads - so it is not large by means. That is I am sure EU, US and Japan does not mind Chinese imports - for now!

Actually, I think EU is trying to catch the China in it's own game... you see China had no auto industry, Europeans (mostly) got there and created the industry, likes of Volkswagen, BMW, MB and GM are what created China auto industry. However, Chinese were smart - you see... you can't own business in China outright and you must be in shared partnership with Chinese person at the maximum shares ration of 51% to 49%, meaning Chinese partner will always have final say. What this means all these big automakers by now have been scammed out of their know how and technology and have no way out of China after spending billion on building their automotive industry. Sure that allows them to sell the cars in the biggest market and they made most of the money back, but the infrastructure and technology they have built is there to stay.

It think EU is playing the same game - for now it allows Chinese companies to build factories and invest into EV technology, but once ICE bans comes in and EV market becomes major market, they will lock Chinese companies in. Meaning that all IP, technology and the factories will be locked in the EU and it will be Europeans making EVs for Europeans out of Chinese factories in Europe... and then Europe will have more leverage about business terms European businesses are subjected in China.

Now that is my guess assuming Europeans are not stupid (which is big assumption) and that they/we will have political will to follow truth with this plan.

[ColinBarber]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:59 AM, DanD said:

I'm guessing that the new NX will be based on the new Toyota bZ4X?

Extremely unlikely as they will offer hybrid and PHEV variants and the BZ4X is a BEV platform. I still expect the NX to be a RAV4 in new clothes. 

[Mr Vlad]

Excellent video, surprised I've not seen that one yet. 

Yes electric car sales is a very small percentage of total car sales But its growing at a very very sharp rate. The number of charging stations is growing fast. 

I really like that MG5 EV estate. For the money it's ruddy outstanding. 

[javadude]

On 5/21/2021 at 12:51 PM, Linas.P said:

I don't want to stop for 2 hours every ~200 miles to go into stinky theme park with random people or indeed visit Oxford.

I don’t know of any BEV that takes 2 hours to charge. Mine takes 20 mins to charge 10 to 80%. That works during a toilet/coffee break.

Mine may just be “an experiment” and “garbage” but it’s better (with the exception of problems on collection, but plenty have no problems) as a car than any Lexus I’ve driven and better than their current BEV offering sadly. Yesterday I drove 4 hour / 185 mile round trip to visit family. I didn’t need to charge during the day and returned with plenty of range left. It was really relaxing to drive being so quiet and smooth and when I wanted to have a bit of fun, which I did quite a bit too, it did that more than adequately. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds (Tesla 3LR with acceleration upgrade) makes for fun leaving the lights/roundabouts. Cost for “fuel” was £2.76 when it charged while I slept on cheap rate. EVs are already better than petrol/diesel and very necessary now. It just needs a mindset change: refuelling is not something to stand around for. It’s something you leave the car to do while you sleep, shop, pee, go to the gym...