Would you consider changing a GS 450h to an ES 300h?

Shahpor · May 18, 2021

There is one facelift GS450h Premier currently for sale:

https://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/en/used-lexus/Lexus/Gs-Saloon/450h-35-Premier-Mark-Levinson-Great-Car-s4cjlcr

Linas.P · May 18, 2021

If I am not mistaken LSS+ was present in 2018+ models, so this would would sadly miss that (depending on how important it is). As well Facelift F-sport came with LFA dials which really transforms the experience from drivers perspective, makes the car almost feel futuristic, so this would be certainly a feature I would want...

Another 2017 car, just with little bit more "standard" colour scheme:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009234085952

F.A. · May 18, 2021

It’s a shame there was never an ‘F Sport with Premier Pack’ on the GS to get the best of both worlds. I guess the GSF comes close, but misses out on the rear climate controls, in this country at least.

Linas.P · May 18, 2021

Yeah, like they did with IS F-Sport + Takumi Pack and later on RC as well. That was one odd thing with Lexus line-up, like on RC you could only get LFA dials and dark rose leather on F-sport, but you could only get ACC and wood trim on Premier. Seems like completely arbitrary limitation - I wanted F-Sport for dials and interior colour, but I kind of wanted ACC as well, but you can't get it even for extra money. And premier had boring Toyota Prius dials from 2003... makes no sense

Nico72 · May 18, 2021

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

There is one facelift GS450h Premier currently for sale:

https://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/en/used-lexus/Lexus/Gs-Saloon/450h-35-Premier-Mark-Levinson-Great-Car-s4cjlcr

Thanks. It is a lovely car, but I would prefer the sports trim.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

If I am not mistaken LSS+ was present in 2018+ models, so this would would sadly miss that (depending on how important it is). As well Facelift F-sport came with LFA dials which really transforms the experience from drivers perspective, makes the car almost feel futuristic, so this would be certainly a feature I would want...

Another 2017 car, just with little bit more "standard" colour scheme:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009234085952

https://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/en/used-lexus/Lexus/Gs-Saloon/450h-35-F-Sport-4dr-Auto-vdcedfl

Same one advertised on Lexus used car search. It is a nice car, shame that the leather is all black, which makes the interior look so bland...

I am thinking of getting a newer GS 450h at the moment but searching still... and they aren't that many left.

Linas.P · May 18, 2021

6 minutes ago, Nico72 said:

and they aren't that many left.

... neither made... nor sold 😞

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/lexus_gs_450h_f_sport_cvt

total ~240 GS450h F-Sport and it seems like 10... maybe 15 Facelift cars.

And agree on black interior... not even sure it is bland, but just very... dark. Seems like any contrasting or lighter colour would have made it more "welcoming".

rayaans · May 18, 2021

29 minutes ago, Nico72 said:

Thanks. It is a lovely car, but I would prefer the sports trim.

https://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/en/used-lexus/Lexus/Gs-Saloon/450h-35-F-Sport-4dr-Auto-vdcedfl

Same one advertised on Lexus used car search. It is a nice car, shame that the leather is all black, which makes the interior look so bland...

I am thinking of getting a newer GS 450h at the moment but searching still... and they aren't that many left.

I think you definitely need to test them both. The ES takumi I had as a loaner I felt was a better all around car than the GS300h I had a while ago. It had the cream interior too so maybe that's what made it look and feel special inside

Linas.P · May 19, 2021

The only thing I would say - there were real poverty line GS300h's, I think SE or Exec with funny small wheels, tiny infotainment screen and really just most basic stuff. So it is important to compare trims like for like.

The two GS450h's I tried were both pre-face lift, one was Premier and another one was F-Sport, admittedly interior looked a little bit dated, but overall quality was outstanding - soft touch materials, well insulated, little bit of V6 sounds but not too much and was very solid feeling car.

The ES I tried was certainly F-Sport with Takumi Pack, but it had very cheap looking wood imitation black plastic dash, contrasting with some "aluminium" look plastic inserts and the door arm rest with windows buttons were very hard textured plastic which felt like it belonged in Ford Transit van and not Lexus. It was literally brand new ... something like 400 miles so there were no funny sounds, but even sound insulation didn't feel as great, the engine was quiet, but it felt like interior almost amplified road noises. Overall it felt "light" and fragile.

Nico72 · May 19, 2021

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

... neither made... nor sold 😞

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/lexus_gs_450h_f_sport_cvt

total ~240 GS450h F-Sport and it seems like 10... maybe 15 Facelift cars.

And agree on black interior... not even sure it is bland, but just very... dark. Seems like any contrasting or lighter colour would have made it more "welcoming".

Interesting report. This is the thing, the black interior is too dark to make it special.

Nico72 · May 19, 2021

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

The only thing I would say - there were real poverty line GS300h's, I think SE or Exec with funny small wheels, tiny infotainment screen and really just most basic stuff. So it is important to compare trims like for like.

The two GS450h's I tried were both pre-face lift, one was Premier and another one was F-Sport, admittedly interior looked a little bit dated, but overall quality was outstanding - soft touch materials, well insulated, little bit of V6 sounds but not too much and was very solid feeling car.

The ES I tried was certainly F-Sport with Takumi Pack, but it had very cheap looking wood imitation black plastic dash, contrasting with some "aluminium" look plastic inserts and the door arm rest with windows buttons were very hard textured plastic which felt like it belonged in Ford Transit van and not Lexus. It was literally brand new ... something like 400 miles so there were no funny sounds, but even sound insulation didn't feel as great, the engine was quiet, but it felt like interior almost amplified road noises. Overall it felt "light" and fragile.

You have done your research, I can see. The quality of the GS is outstanding all the buttons feels like they are there to last for ever. The leather is of premium quality and you notice it immediately.

I have had a fair opportunity driving other courtesy rental cars last year and I was given a Range Rover sport new Hybrid, new Jaguar F-Pace and I did not like how these cars drive. Too abrupt and raw in terms of gear ratio changing gears (even on automatic) and the seats were not as comfy and that is when I realise that it was because I am driving my GS, which is of premium quality in terms of comfort and driving experience. Driving other cars, made me appreciate how special this GS is.

I think I may stick with GS go for a newer version. I still want to drive the ES to try it out (get it out of my chest) and satisfy myself that it will not be the one I go for or...

Vlady · May 19, 2021

12 hours ago, Linas.P said:

If I am not mistaken LSS+ was present in 2018+ models, so this would would sadly miss that (depending on how important it is). As well Facelift F-sport came with LFA dials which really transforms the experience from drivers perspective, makes the car almost feel futuristic, so this would be certainly a feature I would want...

Another 2017 car, just with little bit more "standard" colour scheme:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009234085952

I looked myself at this one! beautiful car! It holds the price well, anhy Germans with this mileage and age will be £5-7k cheaper!

Nico72 · May 19, 2021

21 hours ago, rayaans said:

I think you definitely need to test them both. The ES takumi I had as a loaner I felt was a better all around car than the GS300h I had a while ago. It had the cream interior too so maybe that's what made it look and feel special inside

Thanks. Before I finally decide, I will need to try the ES for sure.

There is another GS450h Sport metallic colour with red leather seats that is also available: https://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/en/used-lexus/Lexus/GS450h/35-F-Sport-jjckzt2

This is making choices a bit more difficult now. But all good to see!!

Nico72 · May 19, 2021

11 hours ago, Vlady said:

I looked myself at this one! beautiful car! It holds the price well, anhy Germans with this mileage and age will be £5-7k cheaper!

I still like it a lot and exterior black looks stunning and even intimidating! I wish the interior was red or cream leather...

superatticman · May 20, 2021

On 5/19/2021 at 7:10 AM, Nico72 said:

You have done your research, I can see. The quality of the GS is outstanding all the buttons feels like they are there to last for ever. The leather is of premium quality and you notice it immediately.

I have had a fair opportunity driving other courtesy rental cars last year and I was given a Range Rover sport new Hybrid, new Jaguar F-Pace and I did not like how these cars drive. Too abrupt and raw in terms of gear ratio changing gears (even on automatic) and the seats were not as comfy and that is when I realise that it was because I am driving my GS, which is of premium quality in terms of comfort and driving experience. Driving other cars, made me appreciate how special this GS is.

I think I may stick with GS go for a newer version. I still want to drive the ES to try it out (get it out of my chest) and satisfy myself that it will not be the one I go for or...

I guess an interesting comparison would be between the GS250 and GS300h or ES300h.

Performance? Probably not a lot in it between any of them. The V6 no doubt sounds better. Better to drive probably too.

Economy? No doubt the GS250 isn't particularly economical for a 'brisk' car. Smaller to mid size V6's are often quite poor when it comes to performance v mpg. Quite often a 2.5 will return exactly the same mpg as a 3.0 whilst losing over a second on 0-60 time. And it seems a frugal 2.0D of the same generation can match a 2.5 petrol performance wise. The GS and ES 300 hybrid models no doubt are very economical.

Build quality? GS models seem very solid 2012 thru 2019. In fact its probably its biggest selling point. ES seems by reports a slight step down overall, although still decent.

Reliability? Well my GS250 has been absolutely outstanding so far. I'd expect the 300h to be too. Too early to judge the ES???

Price? Newest GS250 as expected comes in at around 5k cheaper than the oldest 300h of similar condition. So do the math and decide whether you are really going to save anything over the long haul. ES300 seems expensive though for a vehicle which some reports suggest is a slightly step down quality wise. I'd like to know what exactly I'm getting for paying nearly 3x as much as I would for a low mileage, 1 owner GS250. Or ten grand more than a later, well looked after GS300h? Yes newer = more expensive but value wise?

Of course when you throw a later, low mileage GS450h into the mix, you are getting a quite potent, reliable and superbly built machine for around 6k less than an ES300h.

I'm certainly not looking to knock the ES300, I may end up buying one in the end!

-Error- · May 20, 2021

Although I own a GS300h it's because it ticked all the right boxes for me - the car was bought for comfort and not for performance (at least in 0-60 terms), the GS450h was my initial target. During my hunt in 2019 I have also driven an ES300 in the Takumi spec.

I'll quickly talk about the 300h vs 450h

The V6 is definitely a more enjoyable drivetrain - both GS and RX that I have driven (RX very extensively) had the most recent hybrid and transmission generations available which have come leaps and bounds. My mother has owned every single hybrid RX so I had good comparison and although the fuel consumption is not your best friend in a nearly 3 tonne vehicle it drives so quickly when it wants to, you almost forget the weight of the car whilst it's in Sport+. The sound that V6 makes has finally been perfected by Lexus and every time I get back in the 300h I long for that sound note. It will always be a superior power unit.

With regards to GS vs ES sound note aside - you will achieve astonishing MPGs if you drive reasonably, something even the GS300 will not match being a hybrid generation lower. The ES still doesn't let you fit long items via folding seats ~~separation~~ therefore your transportation abilities are just as limited. The interior sound deadening is even better - something even my F sport GS with fat tyres around the back does pretty well at. The technological step up is great with Android Auto vs the awful built in infotainment on the GS. Mark Levinson sound processing is much better in the ES, on par with same year RX but better than any GS, I suspect it's due to upgraded DAC but the sound is just so much crispier in the newer ES. As someone who travels long distance on motorways regularly I prize a good infotainment over many other creature comforts and must say I wish there were GS models made with the same system as the ES, if you spend a lot of time in London traffic that may also be another selling point for the ES.

Button layout on the centre console and overall interior material quality I must say are better in the GS, I do not like the new "plush" feeling steering wheel and the F sport seats on the GS felt better than Takumi ES. The leather is different and in my opinion of worse quality, feels more synthetic. Although heated steering wheel on the ES is a nice bonus, they were only available on the premier GS in that half leather half wood finish - not my cup of tea.

So there are many choices. If you would like to stay with the V6, I would either suggest finding "The Unicorn" GS or seriously considering one of the newer RX's, as long as you don't mind the size and driveability it's the best package available - great power unit and best interior by far, well maybe after the latest LS.

If you'd prefer the saloon but don't mind the step down in power units - ES is a great option especially the 2021 facelifted model. It looks different to the aggressive styling of the GS but it is definitely a looker. Plus it will boast the latest tech inside - that's a great advantage over the ageing GS.

Edit: Upon reflection you do get the folding ski flap in the ES, pardon me. Still no folding seats.

Nico72 · May 20, 2021

2 hours ago, superatticman said:

I guess an interesting comparison would be between the GS250 and GS300h or ES300h.

Performance? Probably not a lot in it between any of them. The V6 no doubt sounds better. Better to drive probably too.

Economy? No doubt the GS250 isn't particularly economical for a 'brisk' car. Smaller to mid size V6's are often quite poor when it comes to performance v mpg. Quite often a 2.5 will return exactly the same mpg as a 3.0 whilst losing over a second on 0-60 time. And it seems a frugal 2.0D of the same generation can match a 2.5 petrol performance wise. The GS and ES 300 hybrid models no doubt are very economical.

Build quality? GS models seem very solid 2012 thru 2019. In fact its probably its biggest selling point. ES seems by reports a slight step down overall, although still decent.

Reliability? Well my GS250 has been absolutely outstanding so far. I'd expect the 300h to be too. Too early to judge the ES???

Price? Newest GS250 as expected comes in at around 5k cheaper than the oldest 300h of similar condition. So do the math and decide whether you are really going to save anything over the long haul. ES300 seems expensive though for a vehicle which some reports suggest is a slightly step down quality wise. I'd like to know what exactly I'm getting for paying nearly 3x as much as I would for a low mileage, 1 owner GS250. Or ten grand more than a later, well looked after GS300h? Yes newer = more expensive but value wise?

Of course when you throw a later, low mileage GS450h into the mix, you are getting a quite potent, reliable and superbly built machine for around 6k less than an ES300h.

I'm certainly not looking to knock the ES300, I may end up buying one in the end!

Brilliant thinking here! Thanks for sharing your experience with your GS250! I agree with your finding that the GS is overall a better built quality car than the ES...

Nico72 · May 20, 2021

2 hours ago, -Error- said:

Although I own a GS300h it's because it ticked all the right boxes for me - the car was bought for comfort and not for performance (at least in 0-60 terms), the GS450h was my initial target. During my hunt in 2019 I have also driven an ES300 in the Takumi spec.

I'll quickly talk about the 300h vs 450h

The V6 is definitely a more enjoyable drivetrain - both GS and RX that I have driven (RX very extensively) had the most recent hybrid and transmission generations available which have come leaps and bounds. My mother has owned every single hybrid RX so I had good comparison and although the fuel consumption is not your best friend in a nearly 3 tonne vehicle it drives so quickly when it wants to, you almost forget the weight of the car whilst it's in Sport+. The sound that V6 makes has finally been perfected by Lexus and every time I get back in the 300h I long for that sound note. It will always be a superior power unit.

With regards to GS vs ES sound note aside - you will achieve astonishing MPGs if you drive reasonably, something even the GS300 will not match being a hybrid generation lower. The ES still doesn't let you fit long items via folding seats ~~separation~~ therefore your transportation abilities are just as limited. The interior sound deadening is even better - something even my F sport GS with fat tyres around the back does pretty well at. The technological step up is great with Android Auto vs the awful built in infotainment on the GS. Mark Levinson sound processing is much better in the ES, on par with same year RX but better than any GS, I suspect it's due to upgraded DAC but the sound is just so much crispier in the newer ES. As someone who travels long distance on motorways regularly I prize a good infotainment over many other creature comforts and must say I wish there were GS models made with the same system as the ES, if you spend a lot of time in London traffic that may also be another selling point for the ES.

Button layout on the centre console and overall interior material quality I must say are better in the GS, I do not like the new "plush" feeling steering wheel and the F sport seats on the GS felt better than Takumi ES. The leather is different and in my opinion of worse quality, feels more synthetic. Although heated steering wheel on the ES is a nice bonus, they were only available on the premier GS in that half leather half wood finish - not my cup of tea.

So there are many choices. If you would like to stay with the V6, I would either suggest finding "The Unicorn" GS or seriously considering one of the newer RX's, as long as you don't mind the size and driveability it's the best package available - great power unit and best interior by far, well maybe after the latest LS.

If you'd prefer the saloon but don't mind the step down in power units - ES is a great option especially the 2021 facelifted model. It looks different to the aggressive styling of the GS but it is definitely a looker. Plus it will boast the latest tech inside - that's a great advantage over the ageing GS.

Edit: Upon reflection you do get the folding ski flap in the ES, pardon me. Still no folding seats.

Another brilliant post here. Thank you. The more I read your personal experiences, the more I prefer going for GS 450h...

Linas.P · May 21, 2021

16 hours ago, superatticman said:

Price? Newest GS250 as expected comes in at around 5k cheaper than the oldest 300h of similar condition. So do the math and decide whether you are really going to save anything over the long haul. ES300 seems expensive though for a vehicle which some reports suggest is a slightly step down quality wise. I'd like to know what exactly I'm getting for paying nearly 3x as much as I would for a low mileage, 1 owner GS250. Or ten grand more than a later, well looked after GS300h? Yes newer = more expensive but value wise?

Of course when you throw a later, low mileage GS450h into the mix, you are getting a quite potent, reliable and superbly built machine for around 6k less than an ES300h.

I'm certainly not looking to knock the ES300, I may end up buying one in the end!

Generally I agree with you, but I don't think you got your the price right... Cheapest GS250 costs the same as cheapest GS300h (£10k vs. £11k). Sure the newest GS250 will be significantly cheaper than newest GS300h - that is true, but that is because newest GS300h will be 2019 FL model, whereas newest GS250 will be 2013 pre-FL.

When it comes to value for money - obviously used car will be much better value. I mean £2500 IS250 will be 80% as good car as £35000 ES300h (some may argue even better). So I think to keep it relevant the only comparison which could be made is late and nearly new FL 2017/2018 GS450h/300h vs. 2018 IS300h vs. 2018 ES300h - so those cars are comparable. And then we can see where the value is:

2017+ GS450h £28-34k
2018 GS300h £17-24k
2018+ IS300h £14-26k (28k-35k are 2020 cars only)
2018+ ES300h £22-35k

So this now really shows how much better value GS and IS are compared to ES. One could get late 2017/2018 GS450h for the price of 2018 ES300h - that is good value GS, not only it is better quality car, but as well it has serious performance for the same price. Further - one could get GS300h for £5-10k less than ES300h, performance wise they will be equal, but GS is still better luxury car. And finally IS - late IS were actually worse quality than early ones (e.g. going from semi-aniline leather to tahara fake leather etc.) and this is where ES is in terms of quality and in terms of performance, except IS is more sporty handling car, again one could get £7-11k savings on IS without loosing much stuff compared to ES. So yes - ES is not great value for money if looking at "nearly new" cars and even worse if one is not fancy with latest tech and just wants luxurious and reliable car.

Linas.P · May 21, 2021

15 hours ago, -Error- said:

The leather is different and in my opinion of worse quality, feels more synthetic.

Because it is synthetic - by default you get "Tahara leather" in ES and that is pure and simple fake leather. Sure it is best fake leather there is, but it is not real nonetheless. Same applies to FL IS, most entry level NX, all UX, FL RC etc. There was sneaky push for synthetic leather as standard in Lexus and you only get semi-aniline leather in Takumi ES, IS, RC, NX or higher end models like LC, RC-F, LS, RX.

superatticman · May 21, 2021

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Generally I agree with you, but I don't think you got your the price right... Cheapest GS250 costs the same as cheapest GS300h (£10k vs. £11k). Sure the newest GS250 will be significantly cheaper than newest GS300h - that is true, but that is because newest GS300h will be 2019 FL model, whereas newest GS250 will be 2013 pre-FL.

When it comes to value for money - obviously used car will be much better value. I mean £2500 IS250 will be 80% as good car as £35000 ES300h (some may argue even better). So I think to keep it relevant the only comparison which could be made is late and nearly new FL 2017/2018 GS450h/300h vs. 2018 IS300h vs. 2018 ES300h - so those cars are comparable. And then we can see where the value is:

2017+ GS450h £28-34k

2018 GS300h £17-24k

2018+ IS300h £14-26k (28k-35k are 2020 cars only)

2018+ ES300h £22-35k

So this now really shows how much better value GS and IS are compared to ES. One could get late 2017/2018 GS450h for the price of 2018 ES300h - that is good value GS, not only it is better quality car, but as well it has serious performance for the same price. Further - one could get GS300h for £5-10k less than ES300h, performance wise they will be equal, but GS is still better luxury car. And finally IS - late IS were actually worse quality than early ones (e.g. going from semi-aniline leather to tahara fake leather etc.) and this is where ES is in terms of quality and in terms of performance, except IS is more sporty handling car, again one could get £7-11k savings on IS without loosing much stuff compared to ES. So yes - ES is not great value for money if looking at "nearly new" cars and even worse if one is not fancy with latest tech and just wants luxurious and reliable car.

Yep my numbers were a bit hastily pulled out of Autotrader.

However I'd be very surprised if a like for like 2013 model GS250/300h can be picked up for the same price? Given the assumption that 2013 was the last year of the GS250 but the very first year of the 300h?

So both vehicles have 60k on. Both vehicles are 1 owner, both vehicles are same trim. Both vehicles are sold at a franchised dealer with the same warranty.

I'd expect to pay around 4-5k difference for the privilege of having the hybrid capability.

I believe there's was a high miler 2014 GS300h on the trader and a very low miler 2013 Gs250 at a similar price. Is that what you were alluding to?

One thing I've noticed though, is that second hand prices, even on bigger, seemingly less desirable petrol engined cars seem to be fairly high at present. Lack of movement of the newer stuff?

superatticman · May 21, 2021

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

So this now really shows how much better value GS and IS are compared to ES. One could get late 2017/2018 GS450h for the price of 2018 ES300h - that is good value GS, not only it is better quality car, but as well it has serious performance for the same price. Further - one could get GS300h for £5-10k less than ES300h, performance wise they will be equal, but GS is still better luxury car. And finally IS - late IS were actually worse quality than early ones (e.g. going from semi-aniline leather to tahara fake leather etc.) and this is where ES is in terms of quality and in terms of performance, except IS is more sporty handling car, again one could get £7-11k savings on IS without loosing much stuff compared to ES. So yes - ES is not great value for money if looking at "nearly new" cars and even worse if one is not fancy with latest tech and just wants luxurious and reliable car.

And another thing.....I guess if you had ES money to spend, then some form of the LS could come into play. Extra fuel and servicing but you would get an extremely high quality car for similar money over the long run. You could possibly even get a mid 2010s lower mileage, well maintained LS600h and keep it within the cost of a higher end ES over 5 years?

Obvious constraints to the above are parking and possibly ULEZ.

Linas.P · May 21, 2021

44 minutes ago, superatticman said:

Yep my numbers were a bit hastily pulled out of Autotrader.

However I'd be very surprised if a like for like 2013 model GS250/300h can be picked up for the same price? Given the assumption that 2013 was the last year of the GS250 but the very first year of the 300h?

So both vehicles have 60k on. Both vehicles are 1 owner, both vehicles are same trim. Both vehicles are sold at a franchised dealer with the same warranty.

I'd expect to pay around 4-5k difference for the privilege of having the hybrid capability.

I believe there's was a high miler 2014 GS300h on the trader and a very low miler 2013 Gs250 at a similar price. Is that what you were alluding to?

One thing I've noticed though, is that second hand prices, even on bigger, seemingly less desirable petrol engined cars seem to be fairly high at present. Lack of movement of the newer stuff?

No... I just took prices quite literally oldest/cheapest GS300h vs. oldest/cheapest GS250. GS mk4 generally being very rare car it is difficult to find like for like, franchised dealers cars with 1 owner and under 60k miles and make comparison. If we set-up conditions in a way that there are only 2 cars in the market which fits the conditions, then yes - I am sure it could be set-up in a way that one or the other car gets more expensive.

Further complication is that car were not made/sold on the same time and with same equipment. But whichever way you look at it, the mostly same price at lower end of the market.

Actually, I decided to do prove my point numerically, but conclusion is kind of mixed - there are total 18 GS250 for sale and I compared them to 18 cheapest GS300h. Turns out average GS300h in that category is mid-2015 with 70k miles and costs ~£14k and average GS250 is mid-2012 with 57k miles and costs ~£12k. So not much between them, considering 300h are on average 3 years newer and only has 13k miles more... I think the price difference of ~2k could be justified by cars simply being newer and mostly FL models.

If we adjust value based on age, trim and FL then this is what would look like:

Sorry, I know it is rather small, but overall GS250 turns out to be same value "like for like" as GS300h. Obviously, it all depends on criteria e.g. I have removed £200 for each better trim level, £500 for each year newer and £2000 for FL - basically to distil the difference engine makes and trying to account for those variables. Now some people may say "FL is ugly and I rather prefer NFL...) at which point NFL GS250 will become better value.

superatticman · May 21, 2021

10 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

No... I just took prices quite literally oldest/cheapest GS300h vs. oldest/cheapest GS250. GS mk4 generally being very rare car it is difficult to find like for like, franchised dealers cars with 1 owner and under 60k miles and make comparison. If we set-up conditions in a way that there are only 2 cars in the market which fits the conditions, then yes - I am sure it could be set-up in a way that one or the other car gets more expensive.

Further complication is that car were not made/sold on the same time and with same equipment. But whichever way you look at it, the mostly same price at lower end of the market.

Actually, I decided to do prove my point numerically, but conclusion is kind of mixed - there are total 18 GS250 for sale and I compared them to 18 cheapest GS300h. Turns out average GS300h in that category is mid-2015 with 70k miles and costs ~£14k and average GS250 is mid-2012 with 57k miles and costs ~£12k. So not much between them, considering 300h are on average 3 years newer and only has 13k miles more... I think the price difference of ~2k could be justified by cars simply being newer and mostly FL models.

If we adjust value based on age, trim and FL then this is what would look like:

Sorry, I know it is rather small, but overall GS250 turns out to be same value "like for like" as GS300h. Obviously, it all depends on criteria e.g. I have removed £200 for each better trim level, £500 for each year newer and £2000 for FL - basically to distil the difference engine makes and trying to account for those variables. Now some people may say "FL is ugly and I rather prefer NFL...) at which point NFL GS250 will become better value.

Brilliant detective work. Cannot argue with those figures at all.

So in general, there isn't a huge amount to be gained (financially) by choosing a GS250 over a 300h of a pre FL year. I'd like to know overall cost of ownership over 5 years between the two. Using less fuel is just one factor. Does the hybrid system require a higher cost of servicing?

Another comparison....the guy at Lexus Sidup reckoned a GS250 and GS450h were fairly similar MPG wise but of course the 450h will leave the 250 standing.

Linas.P · May 21, 2021

GS300h is ~£15-£25 cheaper to service than GS250, whereas GS450h is £15-£25 more expensive. Strangely, it seems that extended warranty is same £1095/24 Month on all 3... making GS450h (and especially GS-F) very attractive with warranty.

Insurance will be more expensive on more powerful car, but that is anyone's guess how much it will be. In terms of fuel consumption GS300h will be best as well... whereas between GS250 and GS450h there are load of variables - I reckon if you drive them hard GS450h will be much less efficient, but that is because it is more powerful car. But if you drive them very carefully then GS450h will be on part with GS250 in the city, but GS250 will be more economical cruising at constant motorway speed... maybe (not sure what is impact of Atkinson cycle on GS mk4).

In conclusion - GS300h will be cheapest by far to run over 5 years, GS450h will be second and GS250 probably on part or even little bit more expensive. But if one does not take warranty, does not service car in dealership... then GS250 in theory is the simplest car which needs least maintenance and lest likely to go wrong. And the thing is - I would not risk GS450h without warranty, but I would be fairly comfortable running GS250 without one.

superatticman · May 21, 2021

44 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In conclusion - GS300h will be cheapest by far to run over 5 years, GS450h will be second and GS250 probably on part or even little bit more expensive. But if one does not take warranty, does not service car in dealership... then GS250 in theory is the simplest car which needs least maintenance and lest likely to go wrong. And the thing is - I would not risk GS450h without warranty, but I would be fairly comfortable running GS250 without one.

Yes. Absolutely. I've always been happy buying larger 6 cylinder Japanese cars in the past with little or no warranty. Bar servicing I've never had a single issue spanning over 25 years. Supra Mk3T, Camry V6, Accord V6 x2, Soarer TT and present Lexus. However, something with a hybrid system I'd really want it backed up with a warranty of some description.

I think there's a reason Lexus Sidcup were happy to 'throw in' a 3 year warranty with mine to help shift it from the forecourt. They knew jolly well I'd never need to use it.