Would you consider changing a GS 450h to an ES 300h?

[Nico72]

Hi Gents,

This is, I think, an interesting question to ask, as I have been wanting to know from those who drive a GS 450h if you would consider changing a GS 450h to an ES 300h? It sounds like a downgrade on first sight, right? The obvious suspected answer is that the ES 300h does not have the punch of the GS 450h and it is only front wheel drive, so for me it forms an obvious reason to keep my GS 450h over the new ES 300h.

But, there are a number of things that I am now beginning to appreciate the ES more than before. At first, I thought, nice design but the power train and engine is not enough to convince me. However, strangely enough, over the last few weeks, I have begun appreciating it more, I think it has to do the introduction of the new 2021 ES make over. The look is beginning to grow on me lately. 

When looking at the ES 300h, I now appreciate more the front grill and front look - it is really looking stunning. The rear is something, that I am not so keen on. I wish it was designed sportier than what it looks. I am not sure the rear spoiler is right, but I could live with it. The cabin interior looks refreshing, interesting design and I love the luxurious feel of it. This car is like a baby LS 500h to me, which is cleverly thought. But, whilst it looks very luxurious, there are a few bits that let the interior down with presence of plastic bits like plastic on the side of the console, plastic on the front bit of the navigation screen, side bottom doors. However, the cabin still looks outstanding - I love the new steering wheel for, either, Sport or Luxury type and both really look elegant and inspiring to drive. The sat nav can be too small to operate for my liking, so I would prefer the bigger sat nav screen of the 2021 ES model. The driver seat, according to car reviewers is well built and is extremely comfortable (same as GS). They have made the cabin extremely quiet and well insulated that apparently it is more relaxing to drive. The Hybrid has had an upgrade as you can still drive EV mode (providing enough battery cells are charged) up to 70mph, where as my GS is up to 40mph.

Overall, I really want to like the ES more but the sticking point is the 2.5 Litre engine and front wheel drive that make me hesitant to trade for GS 450h. If only, Lexus were creating an ES 450h, it would really solve my problem in an instant. 

However, I must admit one thing: as I live in London, most of my journeys are in town, the traffic is often congested (due to London Mayor reducing lanes prioritising extra lanes for cyclists! Insane) so I cannot really use all the power of my GS, unless on motorway, which is only occasional. Again, with all the speed limits and cameras, there are no possibilities of truly experiencing its power without the risk of getting caught speeding. So for that matter of fact, you could be driving a 911 and you would get no real benefits when driving in town, we all have to follow the congestion lane. But, what Lexus does, is making the driving much more special even when we get stuck in traffic, the EV mode quicks in on its own and it is like being secluded in your own capsule and enjoying Zen at its best, it is so relaxing that you don't mind being stuck in traffic and it is even addictive. So, driving an ES would give me more of this tranquility feeling for sure... As I understand it is better insulating than the GS. 

Or am I now getting old? I used to think that I am sporty driver but, since having my Lexus GS, Lexus has done something with my driving style. The Hybrid mode has changed the way I drive. Yes, I do like to hear the V6 growling at times on the motorway, but there are times, I feel just cruising and driving relax enjoying the moment and appreciating what the Hybrid does. It definitely makes me think, if I change my car, it will be another Lexus and certainly another Hybrid too. 

So here I am now doing lots of thinkings, lots of car reviews viewing on YouTube to see what could be my next car in future. Why? It is because my 3 year lease with my GS will end at the end of this year.

4 Options I can see fit:

1) keep my GS 450h and pay a small balloon left and extend my warranty afterward and continue to enjoy driving my current car for another year or so and then decide later on what I would want to replace it with - definitely another Lexus for sure!!

2) I could trade my car with a new Lexus vehicle... a) choose an ES300h if I want to stay within saloon type of vehicle, or b) go a for a newer GS 450h year 2017 (which is a lovely car too), different steering wheel, different sat nav upgrade, different grill, and LED lights, but same dimension as my current, same power train, which would make GS 450h more rare than ever when driving on the road.

3) or try SUV like the RX 450h... As when you drive 3.5 V6 engine, you would want to keep the same sort of power or engine category. The interior of the RX 450h is just outstanding. Will it be sportier than my GS? Well no, but it has a whole new level of luxury that I cannot ignore.

4) Or go mental and choose a GSF (rare and still expensive) or choose a RCF, as I did once with driving my E63AMG 6.3 naturally aspirated Performance Pack for near 3 years - I adored the car, but it was expensive to run. This last option, will mean that I must be ready for all added costs: more expensive car insurance, extra costs for changing rear tyres more often, go to Petrol station more often, change brake pads and brake discs more often but having lots of fun - again if my main driving is in London (which it is), I will be restricted to have fun with this car, unless I take it to the motorway every now and then...

Are you in identical situation, having to think what would be the next vehicle after GS 450h? If so, I would love to hear your views and comments. 

 

 

[Nico72]

I mean not to exclude those who drive GS300h as I think, the choice for going with ES 300h, maybe an easier alternative to proceed... But it is when you have the extra power that you have to ask yourself: do I want to keep it or lose it?

[Spacewagon52]

Well I am not excluded and I do not have either car! I fully appreciate your concern over the 3.5 V6 vs 2.5 four pot. After watching your excellent video on your GS 450h I see that in London you do not get the full use out of the power. My thoughts, in your position, would not be about power but comfort.

Will a ES 300h be as comfortable as your present GS?

Will it have the space you need for the family?

Will you enjoy driving the ES as much as the GS (not because it is newer)?

Will how the car looks on the drive sway my feelings?

Will the extra cost implications make it worth the change?

If / when I change my RX400h, I will either go for a RX 450h or a NX 300h - I too will be in a similar dilemma. 

 

Have you had a test drive of the ES300h? Ask for an extended test drive over say a 24 or 48 hour period. You can then compare each car directly by driving over the same route.

 

Just my thoughts Nick.

 

[Nico72]

2 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

 

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! Really appreciate this.

You say: "My thoughts, in your position, would not be about power but comfort." I concur and I accept this - so true. Lexus are making best seats and the level of comfort is extremely important for me. 

I have not tested the ES 300h and I think I should to form a better opinion of it rather than relying on the various car reviewers. I had not thought of this! Obvious thing to do really, which will help me decide on your next points you quoted:

"Will a ES 300h be as comfortable as your present GS? 

Will it have the space you need for the family?

Will you enjoy driving the ES as much as the GS (not because it is newer)?

Will how the car looks on the drive sway my feelings?

Will the extra cost implications make it worth the change?"

[Spacewagon52]

Just now, Nico72 said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! Really appreciate this.

You say: "My thoughts, in your position, would not be about power but comfort." I concur and I accept this - so true. Lexus are making best seats and the level of comfort is extremely important for me. 

I have not tested the ES 300h and I think I should to form a better opinion of it rather than relying on the various car reviewers. I had not thought of this! Obvious thing to do really, which will help me decide on your next points you quoted:

"Will a ES 300h be as comfortable as your present GS? 

Will it have the space you need for the family?

Will you enjoy driving the ES as much as the GS (not because it is newer)?

Will how the car looks on the drive sway my feelings?

Will the extra cost implications make it worth the change?"

I am very wary about listening to car reviews. The best review you can get is from an owner who has had the car at least for 6 months.

See which dealers will offer you an extended test drive. Should be easier after the end of June. Gives you time to research more.

[Nico72]

2 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

I am very wary about listening to car reviews. The best review you can get is from an owner who has had the car at least for 6 months.

See which dealers will offer you an extended test drive. Should be easier after the end of June. Gives you time to research more.

Thank you. I agree with your observation. Well it is wise thought. I think, I will ask my local Lexus in Edgware Road if they would loan me an ES for test drive for a day or 2...

[Zotto]

It was the same dilemma that LED me to change my top luxury version of GS300h  for a RX450h: I missed too much the v6 engine on my former GS450h MY2008. Nonetheless Es300h is quite a wonderful car where to live in, and mpg are better. At the moment I am happy with my RX, waiting for  some new model from Lexus (may be electric?). The alternative choice, a LS hybrid sedan is "too much" for me, and getting older stay sitting higher is a plus.

All this, unless I receive an offer I can't refuse...

[superatticman]

This is a great thread as its something I'm going to have to ponder at some point. The part about London traffic very relevant though. If, like me you spend the majority of your time in traffic, or cruising along the speed camera infested motorways then you have to question whether the extra power is worth it? London is only going one way, with 20mph limits, yet more speed cameras etc etc. So a moderately powered hybrid makes sense. I've yet to even sit in an ES300 but it needs to have at least even headroom to my GS for it to work. 

The ES is lauded as a high quality, reliable and comfortable car. But....it does seem pricey for what it is. 

 

 

[Nico72]

27 minutes ago, Zotto said:

It was the same dilemma that led me to change my top luxury version of GS300h  for a RX450h: I missed too much the v6 engine on my former GS450h MY2008. Nonetheless Es300h is quite a wonderful car where to live in, and mpg are better. At the moment I am happy with my RX, waiting for  some new model from Lexus (may be electric?). The alternative choice, a LS hybrid sedan is "too much" for me, and getting older stay sitting higher is a plus.

All this, unless I receive an offer I can't refuse...

I see your point too. I was tempted for the LS500h but it is too big to drive it in London. Finding a parking space will always be tricky unfortunately. The car is very sumptuous and I don't feel ready for this level of comfort yet! Some day maybe (when I get older).

[Zotto]

17 minutes ago, superatticman said:

 the extra power is worth it?

 

In normal city driving it's not, but extra power is a drug, you may even never need it, but you know "you may use power". 

About interior quality and space in ES, as I can see is "almost" same for quality but better for space. And fuel consumption if far better.

[Nico72]

16 minutes ago, superatticman said:

This is a great thread as its something I'm going to have to ponder at some point. The part about London traffic very relevant though. If, like me you spend the majority of your time in traffic, or cruising along the speed camera infested motorways then you have to question whether the extra power is worth it? London is only going one way, with 20mph limits, yet more speed cameras etc etc. So a moderately powered hybrid makes sense. I've yet to even sit in an ES300 but it needs to have at least even headroom to my GS for it to work. 

The ES is lauded as a high quality, reliable and comfortable car. But....it does seem pricey for what it is. 

 

 

I completely agree with you. The current traffic situation in London is so abysmal and reducing main roads to one lane is insane. More pollution will be inevitable. Introduction of Ulez this October meaning that Ulez approved cars will be allowed inside north and south circular or a daily fee of £15 (I think) 24/7 to drive in if car is not Ulez approved. So my car is Ulez approved, so it is a good thing. But as you say, I am not really using the full power, only if I overtake but speed limit is constant in many places (including average speed limit) that it does make you think whether it is worth going for fast cars. I think I will have to do a test drive for a few days to explore if I would settle with this ES300h. The other task I have is that my wife has to change her car this year (she drives a Tiguan 2009 diesel) as it will not pass the Ulez. So, she wants an SUV vehicle. I have been trying to convince her to either go with NX300 or RX 450h. She does not want the RX as it is too big. But she is not so keen on the NX either. Shame. So I am trying to see what she wants first to decide on my next car too. If she gets another SUV then I would certainly not want to have another SUV like RX as two SUVs will look a bit odd on our way drive in my opinion. So hence why, I am still thinking Saloon as first choice. Or keep my GS 450h or get another GS 450h... Not sure.

[Nico72]

3 minutes ago, Zotto said:

In normal city driving it's not, but extra power is a drug, you may even never need it, but you know "you may use power". 

About interior quality and space in ES, as I can see is "almost" same for quality but better for space. And fuel consumption if far better.

You are so right. It is hard to get it off, when you know you have great power available when you want it. It is addictive. But I may opt for comfort as first choice this time - maybe?

[Spacewagon52]

14 minutes ago, Nico72 said:

The other task I have is that my wife has to change her car this year (she drives a Tiguan 2009 diesel) as it will not pass the Ulez. So, she wants an SUV vehicle. I have been trying to convince her to either go with NX300 or RX 450h. She does not want the RX as it is too big. But she is not so keen on the NX either. Shame. So I am trying to see what she wants first to decide on my next car too. If she gets another SUV then I would certainly not want to have another SUV like RX as two SUVs will look a bit odd on our way drive in my opinion. So hence why, I am still thinking Saloon as first choice. Or keep my GS 450h or get another GS 450h... Not sure.

Has she considered the UX? Depends on how much space you need in the back?

[Nico72]

Just now, Spacewagon52 said:

Has she considered the UX? Depends on how much space you need in the back?

We did and it is a great car to drive but there is not boot space! Shame...

[PRT68]

2 years ago, I had an ES as a courtesy car for 48 hours whilst my ISF was in for servicing. I don't remember the model specification, but it drove beautifully. The only thing I didn't like about it was the interior smell! It smelled of plastic. 

More emphasised by the lovely aroma of leather when I got my ISF back. 

On research, my loan car had synthetic leather. 

[Nico72]

2 minutes ago, PRT68 said:

2 years ago, I had an ES as a courtesy car for 48 hours whilst my ISF was in for servicing. I don't remember the model specification, but it drove beautifully. The only thing I didn't like about it was the interior smell! It smelled of plastic. 

More emphasised by the lovely aroma of leather when I got my ISF back. 

On research, my loan car had synthetic leather. 

Thanks for the reply. Interesting. Do you drive an RC 300h? if so, how is the car?

[PRT68]

Yes, I do have an RC300h. Silver with grey leather (that smells nice!)

Again,drives beautifully. Obviously different to the ISF. 

It 's a lowly Luxury version. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but good enough for me.

[Nico72]

3 hours ago, PRT68 said:

Yes, I do have an RC300h. Silver with grey leather (that smells nice!)

Again,drives beautifully. Obviously different to the ISF. 

It 's a lowly Luxury version. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but good enough for me.

Thanks. I do like the shape of this car. It looks quite sporty but not practical enough I think for my needs...

[doog442]

4 hours ago, Nico72 said:

Thanks. I do like the shape of this car. It looks quite sporty but not practical enough I think for my needs...

If you're after practicality I don't believe the rear seats fold down in the ES. (apologies if mentioned ) ..actually I guess that's not an issue looking at your current car ! 

[Nico72]

2 hours ago, doog442 said:

If you're after practicality I don't believe the rear seats fold down in the ES. (apologies if mentioned ) ..actually I guess that's not an issue looking at your current car ! 

You are right on this too. But the saloon will offer a bit more space for rear passengers.

[rayaans]

I believe an owner on here recently changed their GS450h to an ES300h and was very happy. It was the previous generation version to yours however but I cant imagine therell be that much difference.

The ES300h is a very good car especially if going for a top spec one i.e. takumi

[Linas.P]

That all depends on what are the owner's requirements for the car. If it is just a reliable car, then ES300h is great, but so is GS450h. The question which I would ask myself is not the reason why I would want ES, but what are the things I am missing in GS... 

ES300h is not as well built, not as luxurious as GS, and clearly it does not perform like GS. So what is the improvement going from GS to ES - ES300h is newer car and has better technology inside - better infotainment, Lexus LSS+, just overall more toys.

GS on other hand has better performance, more luxurious, better built, nicer materials and more special car to be in. ES is what it is - just rebadged Toyota Avalon, which is very noticeable.

 

[Hangie]

Been in the same situation last year. I would love LS500h but I didn't want spend so much on a car. As a result I've ended up with Jaguar XJ. Performance wise similar to GS 450h but way more luxurious and packed with new tech. I personally love massage seats, especially on longer runs, and my daughter love rear seat entertainment. What is also important it also got semi aniline leather like GS which was very important to me.

For not much more than 50% of LS500h price it was a really good value option.

PS. As for ES, it is not for me. I like to have a fun time from time to time on round abound with RWD and it doesn't have semi aniline leather. 

[Nico72]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That all depends on what are the owner's requirements for the car. If it is just a reliable car, then ES300h is great, but so is GS450h. The question which I would ask myself is not the reason why I would want ES, but what are the things I am missing in GS... 

ES300h is not as well built, not as luxurious as GS, and clearly it does not perform like GS. So what is the improvement going from GS to ES - ES300h is newer car and has better technology inside - better infotainment, Lexus LSS+, just overall more toys.

GS on other hand has better performance, more luxurious, better built, nicer materials and more special car to be in. ES is what it is - just rebadged Toyota Avalon, which is very noticeable.

 

Thanks for your post. Very interesting what you just said. This now makes me think all over again... I love my GS 450h and it is a brilliant car to drive. I think losing the power it has, might be the biggest decision to think over...

[Linas.P]

I have said a lot of harsh words about ES over the years, but overall I don't think it is bad car, but it just isn't GS replacement either. No matter what Lexus says, it just isn't and it feels model below the GS in every aspect.

I would say that if you have an option to get very late GS facelift (just before it was discontinued) then that is the best option, 2019 cars should have LSS+, widescreen NAV, it won't have carplay/android auto, but that could be custom fitted and it will be just much better car overall and not as aged as early GS pre-facelifts. So it is possible to get most ES tech in GS without compromising on GS quality.

Even if you have to get GS300h it is still noticeably nicer car than ES, obviously GS450h face-lift exists, but they are rarer than unicorns and quite pricey.