The future of Electric Vehicles, a Bloomberg report

[dutchie01]

https://about.bnef.com/electric-vehicle-outlook/

As we have seen Toyota will introduce 70 new electrified models by 2025. The above Bloomberg report shows where the market is heading.

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

It may be true, but not sure that excites me... after all motoring is just minor source of pollution globally (yes in the cities it may be larger, but overall it is tiny). So EVs are more of the justification to force you to upgrade rather than meaningful way of reducing pollution.

[Malc]

I thought Toyota were also pursuing hydrogen fuel toooooo ..............  bang !

Malc

[Las Palmas]

15 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It may be true, but not sure that excites me... after all motoring is just minor source of pollution globally (yes in the cities it may be larger, but overall it is tiny). So EVs are more of the justification to force you to upgrade rather than meaningful way of reducing pollution.

Good for the people living in big cities. Too many suffer from the result of polluted air. Spreading the pollution does not help globally so you are right there.

Really interesting report.

I believe the evolution of fuel cells and the problem finding material to make batteries can lead to another story, but we may not all live long enough to see.

[-Error-]

It's interesting to watch the global car market react to the recent trends. Whilst car economy plummeted last year we have seen a major shakeup in many line-ups. A new OEM does so well and then the big boys jump on the bandwagon. What forced them to do so? People are buying Tesla's for two reasons - it's "Green" or because it's decades ahead in terms of technology available to the customer. No one cares your Mercedes is watching your eyes to tell you you're tired, my Tesla drives me home whilst kids in the back play Fifa on it's on-board computer and I catch up with "The Crown" on netflix with the wife on the front screen. I can't see many companies catching them up in that retrospect. It's what the Iphone did to Blackberry and Nokia.

Furthermore, governments are pushing green deals and emission regulations. Euro 6 already shook things up for many manufacturers. We saw VW being slapped on the wrist for their absolutely unacceptable criminal damage. What's worse? People all around the world refuse to take their german vehicles back to the dealers and have them re-mapped to make them compliant. And why should they - it makes their car slow and sluggish.

We see big fossil fuel companies slowly turning their our attention towards renewables - DONG rebrands itself after selling off its fossil assets and becomes Oersted, the worlds most green company, whilst the others spend over $100bn on fossil expansion. They're not stopping as long as it makes them money.

 

Now here's my issue with EV's. Is it a greener option? No, cycling is.

#Astongate helped us realise that owning an electric car will eventually end up greener than a IC equivalent. But does it make it green? Will it be the answer to our CO₂ struggle? Electricity to power these cars will still need to come from somewhere. And in highly developed country such as the UK that will bring new challenges as the power demand will shift drastically. 

Don't get me wrong, it's admirable that the governments are trying to kick out any pollutant from our cities to make the air more pleasant to breathe as we're sipping on our ice cold lattes. Air quality has become a great argument for them to push new policies and a scapegoat to excuse poor city planning. But that electricity is still made by polluting elsewhere. And the more electricity we produce the more wasted energy comes with it.

What's good is that we are now so far ahead in out technological boom that it takes much less time to invent and pioneer in new fields. We will come up with better ways of recycling, better ways of obtaining and most importantly storing energy and then better ways of using it to transport our people to their Benidorm holidays.

We are living in the future and something exciting is just around the corner. And soon we will all know how to swear and greet in Mandarin.

[ciao_chao]

If people are going to hate me for what I'm going to write, please do, this is just my opinion. I don't care about the environment any more personally, I've been let down by too many governments who see it as an easy win to their game. @Linas.P You make a very valid point, cars are just an easy target. Air travel and freight, as well as meat farming contribute more to climate change, yet they're never the hot button topics because they'll negatively impact on the government's cronies. No, instead they target the people who can't afford it, look at the ULEZ expansion in October, doesn't touch the guys in their V12s, yet the people who need to get in and out of London at stupid o'clock are getting s*** on, so many people in their diesels and older vehicles who aren't E6/E4 compliant are going to be affected, it's catch-22 for many, can't afford to upgrade, can't get to work, can't earn to pay to get said upgrade...sure you're more than welcome to ride from the suburbs, or take 2-3 night buses, yeah right! F*** off Sadiq, Labour my arse. Oh an thank's a lot RMT, you're insane protection of your "members" mean you've blocked automation (means improved services, and possibility to run at unsociable hours) at every turn, guess who that screws over? The very people who would sympathise! No wonder Labour is in the s***.

Anyways, rant over. Don't care about eco stuff any more, I'll carry on driving my big V8, eating meat, and working on that mortgage. If people do want to make an effort, by all means, you do you!

[Linas.P]

Global car makers acts to a trend, because this trend means money...

It is quite hard to get person out of their old vehicle now, many cars even with planned obsolescence are still viable enough so that people can drive them for much longer. What is the better way of selling the new product than government mandating the change?! They no longer need to market their cars and convince it is worthy upgrade, government does it for them! Just keep making them! 

I mean goverment nowadays literally forces people to upgrade... "sorry mate you car is too old, you have to get newer one"... not to mention the goverment were the ones who promoted diesel in the first place! What makes BEV band wagon any different? Nothing - it is still same short sighted temporary face saving measure. In long term manufacturing of BEV cars, the batteries and their components may save negligible amount of CO2, but they may pollute the planet in other ways. And they keep looking into this CO2 figure as if it is the only type of pollution that matters. I would not be surprised if 20 years later BEVs will be banned when impact of their making is fully understood.

Just to put some stats into perspective - over 30% of pollution is manufacturing... farming, energy production, and even fashion produces far more pollution than transportation... after household heating, the transportation is the smallest major contributor. Worldwide transportation contributes about 10% of CO2, but that is everything combined - planes, trains, ships, public transport and finally private vehicles. The private vehicles contribute 2.4% of total pollution, 2.1% diesel and 0.3% petrol and hybrid.

So if everyone would stop driving today and all the cars would disappear... all in all we would save 2.4%. That is all! The BEVs are considered to have on average about 30% lower life-time emissions, meaning that we will reduce current 2.4% emissions to ~ 1.7%... and that is assuming every single car is replaced.

What about remaining 98% or so? What we doing about that? We doing nothing about it, because we are conveniently distracted by focusing on cars and demonising motorists.

Why is this? Here I would agree with Chao... - motorists are easy target. First of all in UK we consider driving as privilege rather than right, so charging for privilege is easier to justify. Secondly, cars are easy to relate to... Nobody thinks about manufacturing... because we don't live next to massive Chinese factory where day never comes because of how thick the smog is, we don't live next to coal powered power plant, we don't live next to massive farm... But we all know how cars looks like, we may even have one ourselves... So it is relatable... maybe we seen one smoking from time to time, even our one may have some no entirely natural smell coming out of it... and when somebody says "cars pollute"... we all jump as say "yes I know!". Finally, it is convenient for government - the culture is such that motorists are expecting to be charged no matter what, goverment already has their details, their number plates, their back account details and most importantly it is convenient scape goat as public can be easily fooled to get behind whatever stupid measures to reduce "pollution".

Nobody is interested in actually reducing pollution, because our global economy is based on ever growing GDP... more GDP, makes more production and more production means more pollution. This is systematic... and unsustainable... But instead of accepting that economy cannot grow forever and such economic policy is unsustainable our governments are trying to find scape goat and brush the real issues under the carpet.

@-Error- you say cycling is the solution :DDD sure, tell that to person who lives 50 miles from work, to cycle in the usually cold and rainy British winter morning. Perhaps we should use bicycles for deliver of goods? Ambulances? Police cars? Fire engin... pedals? What about people with disability, what about people with little bit of self-esteem? Not to mention that making of typical lycra warrior carbon bike pollutes as much as making half of the car. Surely, if we going that low... perhaps let's just walk like caveman. 

Cycling is good for some very niche very specific use - that is travelling very short distance in the city ~5-10miles at most. That is all, they are not suitable for anything else. I am not saying they are totally useless, but they address like maybe 5% of transportation needs at most. We still need solution for 95% of remaining transportation needs and realistically the answer is motorised personal transportation. Public transportation is probably distant second... and even then only if it could be fundamentally overhauled... as it stands currently I would not use public transportation even if goverment would pay me to do so - it is just disgusting!

I personally like cycling... in country side, or forest, or park... far away from city, far away from any vehicles. It is rather nice way to spend some free time, it is a way to past time, it is good for leisure, good when time isn't important, when you going to client meeting in suit. Where it is not suitable is any travel where time is a factor, where one needs to carry any luggage or be dressed like a human being. And I don't live that far from work... ~18 miles. But I would never cycle to work... I would rather quit. I looked and it would take me ~1h45minutes to get to work... all, sweaty, dirty and as typical for cyclist angry, then I would need to go to shower and change... although cyclist nowadays don't even do that - apparently sitting all stinky and sweaty in the office is nowadays a new trend for a "better environment". Ohh... and finally I would never cycle on the road.. this is just stupid, roads are not meant to be used for bicycles and cars and bicycles don't mix well together. So yes... it just isn't a suitable solution for majority... maybe 1-2% of crazy dedicated people, but not majority.

[Malc]

54 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Perhaps we should use bicycles for deliver of goods?

Deliveroo !

Malc

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, ciao_chao said:

If people are going to hate me for what I'm going to write, please do, this is just my opinion. I don't care about the environment any more personally, I've been let down by too many governments who see it as an easy win to their game. @Linas.P You make a very valid point, cars are just an easy target. Air travel and freight, as well as meat farming contribute more to climate change, yet they're never the hot button topics because they'll negatively impact on the government's cronies. No, instead they target the people who can't afford it, look at the ULEZ expansion in October, doesn't touch the guys in their V12s, yet the people who need to get in and out of London at stupid o'clock are getting s*** on, so many people in their diesels and older vehicles who aren't E6/E4 compliant are going to be affected, it's catch-22 for many, can't afford to upgrade, can't get to work, can't earn to pay to get said upgrade...sure you're more than welcome to ride from the suburbs, or take 2-3 night buses, yeah right! F*** off Sadiq, Labour my arse. Oh an thank's a lot RMT, you're insane protection of your "members" mean you've blocked automation (means improved services, and possibility to run at unsociable hours) at every turn, guess who that screws over? The very people who would sympathise! No wonder Labour is in the s***.

Anyways, rant over. Don't care about eco stuff any more, I'll carry on driving my big V8, eating meat, and working on that mortgage. If people do want to make an effort, by all means, you do you!

You forget one major thing: People are the ones keeping these criminal/stupid politicians ruling.

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, Malc said:

Deliveroo !

Malc

yes... as what an absolutely horrible company and inhumane working conditions it is . When it comes to term "modern slaves" that is very good example of how it looks.

However, what I meant was not really delivery of pizza or small packages, but rather things like furniture, white goods, large electronics etc... or if we expand term to industry - any sort of industrial supplies, parts, materials etc. which could weight 10s and 100s of tons. 

For example think about construction site... just without vehicles, is this a "future we are looking for"?

Another alternative... if we are so serious about environment, maybe "modern humans" don't need fancy buildings, TVs, Fridges and all this consumptions, maybe that is how "modern" people will look like:

...a although.. scrap that the guy with grey hair seems to be in process of making fire... and we cannot allow that! Maybe we should make ourselves voluntarily extinct as a species. 

Point is - where this race to the bottom ends?

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

You forget one major thing: People are the ones keeping these criminal/stupid politicians ruling.

Partially true, but let's not forget that we don't live in true democracy and notion that people actually decide in our corrupt "representative" democracy is little bit detached from reality. 

This is yet another complex topic... but in short I would say - this will continue to be the case until we make political language and promises binding and until politicians will be made liable for their corruption and lies. Simply getting them out of parliament via election once in 4-5 years is not sufficient to discourage them from corruption. 

[-Error-]

Very insightful view there @Linas.P thank you for bringing the statistical data to this conversation because it helps to paint a better picture. The reason for why we look into CO₂ pollution and not much else is because it makes up around 3/4 of all "greenhouse gases" which in turn cause accelerated Climate Change we're experiencing now. People are scared to talk about it but unless we experience a systematic revolution we're heading toward extinction that isn't that far away from us. That is a fact.

Going back to vehicles and the issues @ciao_chao spoke about, it's because elected officials make money of being lobbied by the big bucks we don't see corporations going through massive changes. It's much easier to point the finger at the poor 90% which stands for only 50% of the country's wealth rather than really having a go at taxing the rich. Things like CO₂ tax and allowing corporations to operate within countries whilst not paying any local taxes should have never been allowed by any government. amazon Luxemburg comes to mind. What I disagree with is governments targeting the ones who cannot afford to upgrade to the latest and newest by bringing in low emission zones and keeping high road tax for older vehicles. Scrap road tax and tax the fuel. But before you do, explain to me why red diesel is a thing and how it deserves to be cheaper.

Private car ownership must be seen as a great privilege, not as a right. With the current population in the world if you gave everyone "the right" to own and operate a vehicle, you'd run out of space on planet earth way before everyone got their share. It's a commodity that we must unfortunately pay for to be able to enjoy. Now if we think about bringing that privilege into big cities where properties sell at £2,500sq/m it's easy to understand why the governments are doing their best to keep you out, where are you going to park that thing?! We could build an affordable house on that parking lot and sell it for £350,000 to a 30 year old who will die before he pays off his mortgage interest.

With regards to cycling. I merely suggested that it's the green solution. On a global scale. It would also solve a lot health issues many are struggling with these days.

I sometimes cycle to work quoting the very reasons you listed, my job is mobile and sometimes allows me to take a bike and cycle from hotel to place of work, but at the beginning and end of the week I still make a 200mile journey home. Public transport is a no go work wise but I'll happily take the bus/train on the weekend. I have also reduced meat from my diet to around 2% in order to do my bit as David Attenborough told me to. I know it's nothing but if I don't do it and then brag about it then nobody else will, but if it becomes dialogue then more people tackle this subject and maybe we'll see a shift in years to come. I'll open a can of worms with this but I'm enjoying the conversation so hey ho.

[-Error-]

45 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

For example think about construction site... just without vehicles, is this a "future we are looking for"?

I imagine the future looking something more like this Energy Vault .

Although you've got to admit the pyramids are an amazing achievement given the tools. I bet there was no mental health days off though or bank holidays.

[doog442]

35 minutes ago, -Error- said:

With regards to cycling. I merely suggested that it's the green solution. On a global scale. It would also solve a lot health issues many are struggling with these days.

I sometimes cycle to work quoting the very reasons you listed, my job is mobile and sometimes allows me to take a bike and cycle from hotel to place of work, but at the beginning and end of the week I still make a 200mile journey home. Public transport is a no go work wise but I'll happily take the bus/train on the weekend. I have also reduced meat from my diet to around 2% in order to do my bit as David Attenborough told me to. I know it's nothing but if I don't do it and then brag about it then nobody else will, but if it becomes dialogue then more people tackle this subject and maybe we'll see a shift in years to come. I'll open a can of worms with this but I'm enjoying the conversation so hey ho.

Totally agree about cycling. It really is part of the future along with a suitable public transport system (we can only hope). So in that respect the Netherlands lead the way with Germany / Denmark following, the health benefits of course are fantastic. The issue in the UK is that we have a cycle hating, car loving public with historically poor cycling infrastructure. In our area as soon as any cycle scheme is announced it gets trashed in the press by the same people moaning about the amount of traffic on the roads, you really couldn't make it up.

Regarding EV's the Government stand to lose billions in fuel tax so the criticism further up from a previous poster may be a case of catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Something needs to change but people historically don't like change.  The meat thing is also interesting, I'm not a great red meat eater but the message is certainly getting out there. 

[Linas.P]

And all greenhouse gasses which are produced by society are something like 1-2% of total naturally occurring greenhouse gasses...

Now just to be very clear - I am not denying climate change, what I am not so certain about is whenever it is caused by humans, and even if that is really that bad of a thing... the climate changes constantly and human history is so tiny compared to such processes like a climate that we cannot even begin to understand it.

What I am certain hoverer is that conversion from ICE, to BEV will have no effect to long terms climate change. As above - it is so tiny fraction of all pollution that it is basically irrelevant. If we decided to fight at least we should start from where it matters e.g. manufacturing as I mentioned is major one, why do we allow poor quality products to be made which then turns into trash? Mandating higher product standard would certainly help. Why is fast fashion even a thing? Why do we allow crypto currencies to exist (e.g. bitcoin mining alone now creates as much CO2 as entire country of Norway)... If we would could 1/3rd from 30% then maybe there would be some results, but cutting 30% from 2.4%... frankly it is waste of time.

That said - there are issues which are much more relevant than climate which may not even change for 5 generations after we are long gone... And that is pollution of the oceans with plastic, heavy metals and other toxic waste. It is impacting us now, for example buying wild fatty fish like salmon or tuna is already problematic, because heavy metals and chemicals from decaying plastics accumulates in fat and due to biomagnification the specifically impact larger predatory species. Now guess what... who is at the top of the food chain?

Other interesting statistics - in UK at least only about 3% of land is used, meaning there are still 97% of land available. So at least in theory there are still plenty space for roads, parkings, houses and indeed we should not be paying astronomical prices for tiny city apartments. We can triple the amount of parking spaces, triple the number of lanes on the roads and we still not going to use even 10% of the land. So the issue of not allowing the cars in the city is not lack of space. 

Now I never said that everyone needs to drive, this would only show (or we could say shows) lack of proper urban planning. Frankly not everyone even wants to drive, from those who do, maybe only half are capable of driving, and from those who are capable probably another half shouldn't be driving. There are already enough idiots on road even as it is and I would argue majority are incompetent drivers.

Reality in UK is that something like 75% of commuter miles and 65% of journeys are done by car. This is indication, that public transport is not functioning properly. Sure there will always be people like me who just never going to use public transport, but large proportion of population would use it if it would be any good.

Finally, there is whole question of whenever we need to travel anywhere... sometimes it seems that we are travelling for the sake of it. For example most office work could be done from home, why are we travelling from one room with PC, just to sit at the another room with PC? Surely that is why we have internet? 

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Totally agree about cycling. It really is part of the future along with a suitable public transport system (we can only hope). So in that respect the Netherlands lead the way with Germany / Denmark following, the health benefits of course are fantastic. The issue in the UK is that we have a cycle hating, car loving public with historically poor cycling infrastructure. In our area as soon as any cycle scheme is announced it gets trashed in the press by the same people moaning about the amount of traffic on the roads, you really couldn't make it up.

Regarding EV's the Government stand to lose billions in fuel tax so the criticism further up from a previous poster may be a case of catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Something needs to change but people historically don't like change.  The meat thing is also interesting, I'm not a great red meat eater but the message is certainly getting out there. 

I think you meant to say - cycling loving, car hating public... but on the rest you are correct, infrastructure is terrible (for both cars and cyclist to be fair) and goverment just allows for cyclist and motorists to fight out for whatever pieces of straight road there are. 

And all that is ignoring that drivers pay £37bn into budget by taxes directly related to motoring, of which merely £4bn are spent a year on improving the roads. At least for me it seems there is enough money collect to make both good roads for cars and good infrastructure for cycling.

But in UK there are other issues, Netherlands for example is basically flat country, much more suitable for cycling and weather is another factor. Somehow it is not hard to imagine cycling to work in sunny Spain... not too sure if I have same feeling about rainy UK.

Goverment does not stand to loose any tax on motoring, they already proposed to replace fuel duty and VED with tax which will charge you per mile driven and they will charge you more if you get stuck in traffic which was obviously created by goverment own stupidity and lack of proper infrastructure… talking about "fair deal".

But in the end - I would even question the same thing, do we really need to commute in the first place... Somehow when I work from home.. I hate cyclists and other drivers much less, because when you don't need to stay for hours in traffic caused by inadequate roads, those same inadequate roads and all issues caused by them suddenly stops mattering so much.

[doog442]

45 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think you meant to say - cycling loving, car hating public... but on the rest you are correct, infrastructure is terrible (for both cars and cyclist to be fair) and goverment just allows for cyclist and motorists to fight out for whatever pieces of straight road there are. 

 

I was correct on the cycle hating UK public. You are getting confused with car hating Councils that fuel the fire for the bicycle hating public. 

This is based on cycling more miles in the UK than I drive and in direct comparison with the many EU countries I cycle. The average (not all) UK motorist who comes up behind a cyclist either won't know what to do and get flustered / frustrated or simply see a cyclist and think 'I must get by them' and to hell with the consequences. For sure lack of Infrastructure is a big thing but a bicycle is still a vehicle and has every right to be on a road even if a crappy cycle path is still present. 

'Lycra lout' is a UK generic term for anyone on two wheels wearing a comfortable item of clothing . Easy to say and accuse when sat in a 1.5 ton steel cage with multiple airbags. 

[Las Palmas]

15 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I was correct on the cycle hating UK public. You are getting confused with car hating Councils that fuel the fire for the bicycle hating public. 

This is based on cycling more miles in the UK than I drive and in direct comparison with the many EU countries I cycle. The average (not all) UK motorist who comes up behind a cyclist either won't know what to do and get flustered / frustrated or simply see a cyclist and think 'I must get by them' and to hell with the consequences. For sure lack of Infrastructure is a big thing but a bicycle is still a vehicle and has every right to be on a road even if a crappy cycle path is still present. 

'Lycra lout' is a UK generic term for anyone on two wheels wearing a comfortable item of clothing . Easy to say and accuse when sat in a 1.5 ton steel cage with multiple airbags. 

After retiring I was cycling more than 10K kilometres yearly till I got skin cancer. I do not hate cars or drivers, though several of these should have never been allowed to drive a machine that can be dangerous. Sure, that amount of time cannot be spent while still working. Lycra is not good or bad. It is synthetic and not needed. Wool is far better but for unknown reasons far too expensive for most people to buy in good quality.

With regard to democracy: It is an illusion. No such thing exists. Corruption is paid by those who rules (through lobbyists) and money rule the world. Churchill was maybe a drunk, but he was right when saying that the weak point in democracy is the intelligence of the voters.

[dutchie01]

10 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Good for the people living in big cities. Too many suffer from the result of polluted air. 

Exactly that is one of the drivers behind the EV success.  Already diesel cars ar banned from inner cities in for instance Germany. Next step will be a ban of all fossil cars and only electric vehicles will be allowed to enter. They do this by giving BEVś a special licence plate so easily controllable. This year BEV sales in germany are expected to be around 25% of all new car sales.

[-Error-]

8 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Exactly that is one of the drivers behind the EV success.  Already diesel cars ar banned from inner cities in for instance Germany. Next step will be a ban of all fossil cars and only electric vehicles will be allowed to enter. They do this by giving BEVś a special licence plate so easily controllable. This year BEV sales in germany are expected to be around 25% of all new car sales.

What is the government subsidy for new EV purchases?

From what I saw previously a lot of European countries are boosting EV sales through very attractive deals. Norway being a good example, it's enough to take a stroll through Oslo to realise where the market is.

[Linas.P]

39 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I was correct on the cycle hating UK public. You are getting confused with car hating Councils that fuel the fire for the bicycle hating public. 

This is based on cycling more miles in the UK than I drive and in direct comparison with the many EU countries I cycle. The average (not all) UK motorist who comes up behind a cyclist either won't know what to do and get flustered / frustrated or simply see a cyclist and think 'I must get by them' and to hell with the consequences. For sure lack of Infrastructure is a big thing but a bicycle is still a vehicle and has every right to be on a road even if a crappy cycle path is still present. 

'Lycra lout' is a UK generic term for anyone on two wheels wearing a comfortable item of clothing . Easy to say and accuse when sat in a 1.5 ton steel cage with multiple airbags. 

I think drivers have every right to be frustrated, because lack of infrastructure leaves them stuck behind much slower and unpredictable cyclist. You just cannot expect for people to appreciate you, when there are 20 cars stuck behind you doing 20 miles under the limit. And to be honest it does not matter if you are cyclist... you may be driving supercar, or you maybe be pulling the camping trailer. It is not the bicycle people are frustrated about, they are frustrated about obstacles on the road in any shape or form.

Even in comparison with UK public does not hate cyclist, sure maybe they are not as popular as they are in Netherlands or Denmark, but UK will be easily in top 5 in Europe and probably in top 10 world wide.

That is very clear by looking around - every single rule, every single law, every new road layout... literally everything is designed to restrict and frustrate the drivers in some way. 

And as for being safe or unsafe - you are the one who can decide, you can be in 1.5ton metal cage with air bags, or you could be in the open and in danger, or you could be cycling on the path on the side of the road and outside of danger. It is your choice and you should not put responsibility on other to care for you on other - care for yourself. It is like saying that it is unfair that bear weight 300kg and has claws and it can rip you to paces - just don't go into bears den!

Now I can partially understand why cyclists are so defensive, because they always ride on the thin line between life and death (although they have free choice not to do it!), so perhaps it is not surprising that they are so awkward to speak with, shouts on pedestrians and rivers for no reason... and in the end talking about caring for cyclists - they always cut across red lights... just somehow doesn't seems like they care that much about their own lives.. and indeed about the rules.

14 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Exactly that is one of the drivers behind the EV success.  Already diesel cars ar banned from inner cities in for instance Germany. Next step will be a ban of all fossil cars and only electric vehicles will be allowed to enter. They do this by giving BEVś a special licence plate so easily controllable. This year BEV sales in germany are expected to be around 25% of all new car sales.

This is kind of catch 22... cars actually drive less miles in the cities, but pollute more. The cause of this pollution is congestion and cause of congestion is inadequate infrastructure. If the traffic in the city would be free flowing, this would reduce pollution multiple times.

It is funny when goverment now pushes for BEVs... they just few years ago were still pushing for diesels, now they are banning them. What makes you think it is not going to happen again?

 

[dutchie01]

not sure about germany but here in The Netherlands you dont pay VAT, no road tax and can get 4000 euro support. For company car drivers taxing is some 14% lower than a fossil car.

So, yes heavy fiscal stimulation is definately part of the deal and for most people the decisive factor 

[dutchie01]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 

It is funny when goverment now pushes for BEVs... they just few years ago were still pushing for diesels, now they are banning them. What makes you think it is not going to happen again?

Maybe i missed something here but i cannot recall Governments pushing diesels? Maybe 20 or 30 years ago?

Also i am not thinking it is not going to happen again

 

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Maybe i missed something here but i cannot recall Governments pushing diesels? Maybe 20 or 30 years ago?

Also i am not thinking it is not going to happen again

Maybe not in Netherlands... In UK as recent as ~ 2014 there were still huge tax cuts and discounts on diesel cars, so especially for fleet and company buyers there were huge incentive to buy them. Only really after "dieselgate" circa 2016-2017 that goverment started publicly discussing the plans on "discouraging diesel use" and phasing in taxes, mostly in the city centres. 

Secondly, because all the way until 2018 UK road tax was based on CO2, this means even until 2018 it was still significantly cheaper to run diesel cars. And if you have one from before 2018, you would still be paying far less tax compared to petrol car. Take for example Lexus IS250 vs IS220d - manual petrol owners pays £565 a year, diesel £250. For some reason Automatic petrol is cheaper, but still costs £325 per year to tax.

Even with this new tax diesel cars costs just about the same to tax as petrol e.g. BMW 320d costs £145 vs. 320i £155... so although goverment does not push diesel as they did in the past, they do nothing to discourage the use. Besides BIK will still be far lower on diesel car, so for company car buyer it may still be cheaper to get diesel car. 

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, -Error- said:

What is the government subsidy for new EV purchases?

From what I saw previously a lot of European countries are boosting EV sales through very attractive deals. Norway being a good example, it's enough to take a stroll through Oslo to realise where the market is.

Norwegians are generally wealthy. I know. I lived ther a couple of years.