GS450h rattle on start up & coolant issues

[Spacewagon52]

4 minutes ago, NickySB said:

🤣 - the head gasket has failed ( although I’ve not checked the head and the block yet) allowing the water around the cylinder to enter them- which is the opposite of what we want ☺️

Thank you! Hope you are able to sort it.

[NickySB]

Another mini update- when we got over to the drivers side it had oil in the cylinders so clearly both HGs had failed. I suppose could possibly have been caused by the coolant issues experienced earlier but not definite. Timing chain was also coming out of line so I suspect it had jumped a tooth or two. None of them seemed to be notably different in length when compared to the new ones but they’ve all been replaced for good measure.
Thankfully no valve damage or head warpage.

Just completing putting it all back together and replacing the radiator so hopefully it will be running again soon. No doubt the job would have been much easier with the lump out but that sadly wasn’t an option this time. The online manuals have been a god sent ! 

[NickySB]

Well the car starts and runs but it’s knocking like a b@stard - valves all looked good on inspection, new chains timing was checked, double checked and treble checked. Installed new oil pump amongst many other new parts. The car is complaining of low oil pressure and other issues but not checked the codes yet.  Suspect the oil Isn’t getting round - it’s got adequate new oil (5w30 as per manual) - anyone got any suggestions on areas of concern pls ? Thanks 

[Mihanicos]

There may be a blockage somewhere or some air trapped, before the oil pressure sensor both very unlikely but possible. I had this in the past, I unscrewed the oil filter until some oil drained out and then screwed it back.

Whenever I remove any engine part with oil passages, I push water through them so I can see the flow. Then I dry them with compressed air.

Try changing the oil filter if not original.

Chris.

[KayCee]

Nick

It doesnt sound too good  but as  Chris said could be air in the oil system.

I remember many years ago on a 1.6 cortina i had(the oil pump was external on Filter Housing) i took it off for some obscure reason. and bought a new one I fitted  it on and it knocked like crazy I switched off  called my dad  i was only 22 at the time the first words he said did you prime the pump look of puzzlement on my face.

My dad took pump off removed plate filled with oil replaced it and bingo no knock (mind my father was a Rolls Royce Engine Fitter)

 

[NickySB]

Thanks for your input guys, a few good points to think about there - I’ve not got back into it yet due to moving house from one end of the country to the other. I am concerned that the preferred oil (5w30) might be too thin. I had read on the forum before the engine gave me issues that 0w20 was better for these, so I switched to that , and then shortly after started to experience the issues both with coolant and knocking, now it could be completely unrelated , but the fact it’s knocking again after rebuild has me wondering if there is an oil pick up issue somewhere else that I’m missing. I don’t remember any signs of blockage in the pick up tube, the banjo filters are new both sides, and pretty much everything else has been apart. We fitted a new pump at the time of rebuild so shouldn’t be that. I aim to get onto Lexus Tech today and do more research to try and understand the oil system better in its entirety. 

[johnatg]

5w30 too 'thin' so you switched to even 'thinner' 0w20 ????? 

[NickySB]

Well I didn’t think it was too think when I switched - however having put 5w30 in it now I feel it’s too thin 

[johnatg]

I know it's a bit late to be saying this, but I didn't want to be negative when you were half way through the job and you had the engine in front of you and I don't.

But, I didn't understand why you said that oil in the cylinders confirmed that the head gaskets had failed. Water in the cylinders shows head gasket failure - oil is more likely to be piston ring failure or bore wear problems (or valve guide wear/failure). The oil galleries are further away from the cylinders than the water passages. How much of a check have you done on the rings, little ends and big ends? Can you do a compression check, especially on the cylinders that had oil in them? Did you dismantle the heads to check the whole valve mechanisms?

I hope there isn't a problem as I've described - it would be pretty serious and you'd need to carefully review options.

[NickySB]

There was a visible path of oil through the HG , pistons & bores looked ok, but didn’t completely dismantle the engine. I’ve no reason to suspect the little or big ends as the rattle is definitely top end, plus no metal in the oil. When turning the engine over by hand, prior to removing the heads, the valves seemed to operate without issue and they had the TB Mod about 10 yrs ago.

the timing chain looked to have jumped on removal so I suspected it has just stretched but must be something else going on, and perhaps the clatter that started just before we took it apart was related to the oil issue so just have a more serious oil discrimination issue buried in there somewhere 

[NickySB]

I don’t like threads being left unanswered so thought I would update again. Took the rocker covers off again to find the timing had moved. This was odd as we checked the timing 3 times after replacement and rotated the engine by hand with no issues.

when rotating the engine by hand there was a strange noise that would occur every resolution at a certain point- I can only

describe it as a high pitch squeal. I then decided to get the crank shield off in the sump and take a look from below. It became clear that during rotation cylinder 4    was generating the noise. On closer inspection it appears to have bent a Conrod- so at least I have a better picture of what’s going on. I’ve decided not to rebuild the existing lump for fear of what other damage may have been caused, so a replacement engine is on standby and I’ll inspect the failure etc in more detail after. If anyone has done a transplant on a 450h and has any tips on the best method of approach please share ☺️

[NickySB]

project engine change is well under way. We decided will will remove/replace via the front end. It took around 3 hrs to get the front end apart with a few tricky rusted bolts but having clear access is much easier. After stripping off the heads it took about another 4 hrs to finish that and get the block separated from the transmission. Transmission out next ( they’ll go back in together ) 

[NickySB]

Reconnecting the transmission to the replacement engine took at little while due to having limited facilities to get both units at the exact same height- another afternoons work. Spent another 3-4 hrs prepping the replacement engine - changing any broken cables or damaged parts and changing some consumables. 
Took about another 6 hrs to get the engine and transmission back in together. There’s a lot of fettling as it is a tight space. We came in from the top, and did have to drop the steering rack and subframe a bit ( not remove completely ) and eventually it all slotted into place. Gearbox mount, subframe and steering rack all back on- now to reconnect and rebuild the front end.

 

[NickySB]

Some close ups of the damage 

[johnatg]

So is this all due to the timing chain having jumped some teeth? When do you think that happened? Before or after the first rebuild?

I'm impressed that you've stuck with it this far! Is it mobile again yet?

Good luck with the rest of the project!

[NickySB]

Hi - I think it the timing jumped - exact cause unknown- maybe the chain stretching or maybe related to the issues we experienced with the water pump- and I never found the piston/conrod damage on the first rebuild as I never looked that deep- isn’t hindsight wonderful 😂 I also think that has already happened before the rebuild as it didn’t run long enough or well enough to do that damage afterwards. We’re just at the point of doing coolant/oil refills then we will see what she does - keep everything crossed for me pls ☺️🤞🏻

[DCCardshark]

Hi,

Very impressed with your efforts. I have some concerns about the engine health of my 08 450H and wondered if your replacement engine was from another GS hybrid or did you use a generic 2GR-FSE?

Thanks and fingers crossed yours turns out well.

[NickySB]

Thank you DC, it was a 2GR-FSE from another hybrid. I am not that familiar with the engine yet so I don’t know if one from a non hybrid would be viable but I can’t see why not as the hybrid system, to my knowledge, is independent. However I’ll happily be corrected by those in the know. 

[NickySB]

Well the car starts and runs but the hybrid Battery has suffered in the time the car has been off the road and doesn’t appear to be charging at present - more investigation required

[NickySB]

Still have hybrid issues - took the Battery apart ( this is the 3rd time ) - found the corrosion again on the washers. Cleaned them all up- all cells checked out but they’re all ready unusually high- 8.12-8.16v.

I’ve not seen the hybrid cells that high before- it’s normally 7.7 ish. After reinstalling still got the EML, warning trainable, check hybrid system, EBC & VSC. In my prior experience these normally indicate the hybrid Battery has at least one duff cell or corrosion- but having covered that off I am a little concerned by the higher voltage- investigation continues….don’t have a TechStream sadly

[Mihanicos]

Corrosion on the washers that connect the cells in series indicates contact resistance which in turn limits the charging current to the cell in question and to the whole Battery ( a series circuit ). Hence the voltage difference amongst the cells and the final level of charged Battery voltage which in turn will cause a hybrid Battery check code if below threshold values.

Toyota sell the washers separately. Ideally they should be made of silver oxide like in high current contacts but the cost would be much higher. A high temperarture grease on them after assembly could help to inhibit corrosion.

A fully charged cell is about 8.5volts. Before assembling the Battery ( cells series connected ), you need to connect all the cells in parallel for a for a few hours so that all of them attain the same voltage. ( balancing ). The hybrid Battery ecm monitors the voltage accross each pair of cells and there is a threshold votage difference permitted between any of them which if exceeded a check hybrid Battery code will be flagged.

Chris.

[NickySB]

That’s useful thanks Chris 👍

[Mihanicos]

You are very welcome.

Chris.

[NickySB]

Another update - cells all balanced - checked the discharge on them and 3 cells identified as discharging too quickly so changed those too. Hybrid Battery back in. Car runs well without any warnings or codes. I’m a little concerned by the lack of electricity flow on the central screen however I’m out of MOT so can’t go for a drive yet. Got a couple of unrelated things to resolve before it goes for a test, will be able to determine once it’s passed whether it then recharges properly. 

[NickySB]

Well this really is the gift that keeps on giving! After doing the other work the car was ready for a MOT but needed a bit of welding on the rear sills. Sent it to a local garage as my welder is in storage at the moment and that has turned out to be a bad decision. Whilst they’ve done the welding and the MOT, I believe they’ve also fried the hybrid Battery so now it won’t start ( the usual check hybrid system, check ECB and no ‘ready’).  It drove down there no problem at all. 
I’m waiting for them to deliver the car back to me whilst we have some strong discussions in the background. They are declining it was their doing, but the fact remains it went in find with no issues or codes and has come out very broken.