What replaces IS?

[bpsorrel]

9 hours ago, paulrnx said:

Take a look at the new interior now. It’s quite different and very upmarket in my opinion. A lot nicer than an IS I think. Much more modern.

Sadly there’s also the reliability, or lack of it!  Lexus ownership spoils you in that way! 😊

[First_Lexus]

Interesting thread. I’d say as long as you are buying on a PCP or leasing, a German car is fine. However, having driven a lot of company and hire BMW and Audi, and having owned two shocking VWs, I personally couldn’t take the risk of owning one outside of warranty. 

Audi make a beautiful interior, but you have to contend with the associated image problems. BMWs do drive nicely if you like RWD, but interior quality on the latest 3 series isn’t really up to scratch, and is some way below Lexus, Audi and Mercedes imho.

If I had to choose a German car it would be a Mercedes right now, but given a free choice I’d be in a Volvo S40 or S60. The interiors are awesome, and although the quality isn’t what it once was, they seem to be pretty robust. A close friend got a new XC40 last year, and she had a number of niggling issues but nothing major and all quickly sorted by the dealer. A very different story to a colleague who had one of the first new BMW 3 series on a lease and had to give it back as they couldn’t sort the digital dashboard problems. He now drives a Mercedes C-class and can’t understand why he didn’t buy one in the first place.

Have to wonder how a new car got out of the factory and through a PDI with a poorly fitting boot lid and rear bumper though...

Jaguars look lovely, but I couldn’t risk the quality having known a few people with them. I’m still shocked at the state of a 10k mile XF we hired for a work trip a couple of years ago. To say the interior hadn’t stood up well would be an understatement!

 

[paulrnx]

So we’re back to square one then. If you’re in the UK and you want a compact sports saloon and you want a Lexus, you are stuck. And there is nothing else that anyone would consider because it’s not a Lexus. I like the brand but I’m not blinded by it. I’m sure a brand new A4, C Class or 3 series would be a fine car. As has been said, Volvo seem to be making some very nice cars now too. I’m sure I’d get along ok and find something I was happy with.

[bpsorrel]

True.   I saw a very nice bmw 4 gran coupe yesterday that ticked quite a few boxes..... 👍😊

[Zotto]

Just about ES: (44) 2020 Lexus ES300h | Superior to The V6 - YouTube

 

[paulrnx]

An ES is a much different kind of car to an IS though surely?

[Zotto]

As I can see, ES is not a sport car, but more "luxury" than IS.

[bpsorrel]

I road tested an IS F Sport Premium today.  Surprisingly I really could feel the improvement in handling and road holding, without too much ride sacrifice.  Very nice indeed and the extra niceities of the premium pack are cetainly worth having.   The car I tried had a few too many stone chips and odd little scuffs for me to want to buy it, but it has made me want the F Sport Premium!   So, there we are, I will buy (when I find one!) a very recent one in grey or white and enjoy the last of the breed for 3 or 4 years. :)

[Linas.P]

On 4/21/2021 at 12:32 PM, Robertdt said:

Honda did have full leather, fronts heated, climate control, touchscreen, nav etc, adaptive cruise control, drive by wire throttle and active engine mounts, just the basics I suppose every mid range saloon had in 2003.

Probably not all Honda's are made equal, but are you sure it had adaptive cruise control... I would be surprised if it did. The rest of equipment indeed sounds fairly standard or optional e.g. full leather seats probably was not included for free and was paid option, but once you have leather the heaters then are usually included.

"Drive by wire" could be good and it could be bad, but modern cars tends to have everything digital so I guess it makes sense. Active engine mounts are only important because probably it had 4 cylinder engine, so it would rattle everyone to death otherwise.

@noby76 you again with your old story about FWD is same as RWD. If you like FWD - good to you, everyone can have their choice, but FWD does not drive and will never drive like RWD... because it can't. There are certain advantages FWD cars have over RWD and I can't deny that, but handling isn't one - and look this isn't some sort of thing about which we can agree to disagree, it is just fact and you are the only one person in the world who disagrees with it (well probably not the only one, but hey we have people who believe that earth is flat, so it isn't really a competition).

[bpsorrel]

Linus, I have a question for you, well two actually, is the back seat any use in real life of the RC?   I found out recently that my wife really likes the RC so am looking at it, again a last of breed 300h.  And as it’s slightly heavier and a bit of mash up of a platform, does it handle as well as an F Sport IS?  😊

[noby76]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 

@noby76 you again with your old story about FWD is same as RWD. If you like FWD - good to you, everyone can have their choice, but FWD does not drive and will never drive like RWD... because it can't. There are certain advantages FWD cars have over RWD and I can't deny that, but handling isn't one - and look this isn't some sort of thing about which we can agree to disagree, it is just fact and you are the only one person in the world who disagrees with it (well probably not the only one, but hey we have people who believe that earth is flat, so it isn't really a competition).

put it this way @Linas.P i have owned 4 RWD's including a V8 4.3 so i know how both drive layouts respond on the limit and those Accords do have the tendency to oversteer and enter corners just like RWD's. its more how Honda tuned the handling rather than how the wheels are being driven duh.. 

people confuse the notion that a car being RWD automatically translates to it being "sporty" or "fun" over FWD when most forget about how the handling of a specific car has been tuned.

and no i'm not disagree i'm pointing out the fact that there ae lots of performance FWD cars which have been tuned to "mimic" the behaviour of RWD when it comes to sporty driving if you missed it clue was in the word "mimic". and two manufactures really good at doing this is Renault and Honda.

[Linas.P]

If you argument is about how they are like to drive day to day, then I agree with you, but if we arguing how they are to drive on the limit then there is huge difference.

And you right in saying that just RWD does not make car sporty or fun to drive, perfect example IS250 - it is dialled in in such way that it almost feels FWD unless you really push it. IS250 is most likely going to understeer and it is awful, but that is how poor drivers imagine "safe" handling and that is why it is done. That said going back to square set-up on IS250 it is possible to get neutral balance and then it becomes much nicer to drive.

Yes suspension on FWD car could be balanced to make car feel more neutral, I would not be surprised...  but it does not make the car sport or fun to drive either. Important thing to say is that neither oversteer, nor understeer is good thing in general - however tendency to oversteer could help rotate the car in the corner and that is why most sports cars tends to be RWD... because RWD naturally without any trickery tends to make cornering easier. Having FWD car which tends to oversteer sounds terrifying to be honest - I don't know why would anyone would want it... and further I had one (Passat CC GTI) and it was terrible piece of c***.

Just owning powerful V8 makes no difference - the key here is how FWD and RWD differs at the limit. Have you actually driven both to the point where wheels loose grip? If not then it does not really matter which driving wheels you have - cruising in the city traffic neither would make any difference. If you don't push either to the limit, you may never feel any meaningful difference, but if you ever try to load-up the car in the corner and then accelerate hard out of it, one will nicely rotate out of the corner and the other just squeal of the road.

 

[noby76]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

perfect example IS250 - it is dialled in in such way that it almost feels FWD unless you really push it. 

Yes suspension on FWD car could be balanced to make car feel more neutral, I would not be surprised...  

 

 

Same way the 2.4 CL9 Accord was dialled in such a way that it almost feels RWD on the limit handling. case can now be closed 

 

[Linas.P]

19 hours ago, noby76 said:

Same way the 2.4 CL9 Accord was dialled in such a way that it almost feels RWD on the limit handling. case can now be closed 

 

Close to the limit you mean... because once you on (or past) the limit that is when you will understeer into the ditch, that is the main difference between FWD and RWD. Just cruising at the posted speed limit on the motorway that will never be the biggest concern of course.

Finally, for somebody who is not planning to drive on the limit and just wants comfortable cruiser driving wheels should not matter, so it is the perspective thing - I know that I will drive my cars on the limit occasionally and that is why FWD is showstopper issue for me.

[LordByronUK]

I find myself in exactly the same position, stuck in my IS300h luxury for a long time to come. I had high hopes they would bring out an IS450h plugin hybrid (still on the cards for next update), but sadly not yet. I still say it was a short sighted decision from Lexus not to bring the new IS here, dealership seems to agree as so many IS drivers waiting to upgrade, but most of them will be lost customers. Lexus do make some very strange decisions.

As for the ES300h, no way!!! I love rear wheel drive and the ES300h is an underpowered old man's boat, with a cheap feeling interior. ***** it's almost as slow as the NX300h! UX also has a very cheap and rattly interior and lots shared with ES I believe.

So with that said, I'm pondering these possible RWD choices (assuming no IS)

- RC F (running costs possible deal breaker)

- IS300h FSport + premium package, but I'm thirsty for a better 0-60 time and more responsive gear box.

- LC500H or LC500 (hybrid too impractical and gear box still a bit iffy). Running costs an issue with V8.

- BMW 330e (image issues and just not reliable enough) Used one a big risk!! Customer service?

- GS450h FSport also a possibility, but possibly too outdated and hard to find.

And that's all folks. Would love to know your thoughts on those alternatives, maybe I've missed a few in there, but I don't want an EV yet.

Oh, I do have a theory. Perhaps Lexus know about the predicament we're all in and assume that most of us will wait for the all new IS in a few years, EV + hybrid coming down according to recent announcement...

First world problems hey!

 

[talaipwros]

May I ask what budget  are we talking about ?

I am quite happy with the BMW's, the secret is in ticking the right boxes in the configurator web site

 

[doog442]

1 hour ago, LordByronUK said:

- BMW 330e (image issues and just not reliable enough) Used one a big risk!! Customer service?

 

Image Issue ? I'm all over the F30 and G series forums and these things are very reliable and certainly not a big risk. I think they look great. 

I've had far better customer service from my BMW dealer than my Lexus dealer(s) but appreciate others have had different. I'm coming up to three years ownership in a B58 3 series and I had one issue, it happened at the same time a guy on here had the same problem with his LC500...a misted headlight..they were probably made in the same factory. 

If you're buying new reliability really isn't an issue, even beyond three years the warranty is very good value should issues arise. 

[talaipwros]

14 minutes ago, doog442 said:

...

If you're buying new reliability really isn't an issue...

as long as it is not VAG....

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, LordByronUK said:

- RC F (running costs possible deal breaker)

- IS300h FSport + premium package, but I'm thirsty for a better 0-60 time and more responsive gear box.

- LC500H or LC500 (hybrid too impractical and gear box still a bit iffy). Running costs an issue with V8.

- BMW 330e (image issues and just not reliable enough) Used one a big risk!! Customer service?

- GS450h FSport also a possibility, but possibly too outdated and hard to find.

GS450h would certainly be closest upgrade, more powerful, faster and yet more economical. Sure they are rare, but if one is willing to accept 2012-2014 pre-facelift car it is resonable.

I has exactly same issue with RC-F, whereas performance is really nice compared to RC200t/300h the cost of having high performance car is hard to justify for commuting. RC200/300h obviously have same issue as 300h - they are jus damn slow.

LC is amazing car as far as build quality and refinement goes, but it only works as second car in household - boot is non existent and awkward to access. In perfect world I feel like having RX + LC in household would cover 99% of anyone's needs, but in reality where most people could only have 1 car (many actually can even have one) living with LC is difficult. Even compared to RC, the LC is even less practical, at least my RC had folding seats and surprisingly I was able to use it in more ways than IS.

BMW may not be as reliable as Lexus, but new F and G 3-series are reasonably reliable as long as you stay away form 320i/320d entry level cars. Sure 330e will not be as reliable as Lexus IS300h, but it is still above average + it has a lot of PHEV benefits which IS300h does not have. 

[noby76]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Close to the limit you mean... because once you on (or past) the limit that is when you will understeer into the ditch, that is the main difference between FWD and RWD. 

Megane RS , Civic and Integra Type R owners will be laughing at you thinking nice troll 😂  ive had fun in both layouts of cars and not biased towards either..

[Linas.P]

And I will be laughing at them driving on 3 wheels and squealing like a pigs in every corner.

I think perhaps you consider any car will low, hard and uncomfortable suspension as "sports car"? In that case all the cars you mentioned meets the criteria, yet all of them handles terribly... exactly like one would expect FWD trash to handle - if you accelerate in corner they will understeering all the way.

I haven't tried Megane RS, but I actually did some "car-park" autocross races in completely gutted and converted Civic Type-R... to be fair in tiny and technical events like that FWDs had an edge, but that is simply because you hardly ever reach 40-50MPH between cones. So indeed cars like Civics, Integras and Megannes were dominating that type of event - they could be considered "right tool for the task"... but I would never daily that horrible Civic as it was atrocious to drive and handle.

[Alan305]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

... low, hard and uncomfortable suspension as "sports car"

This replaced our IS F Sport, pretty good at corners.
Similar specification to our NX:

Panoramic Roof
Er...

 

Note my old LS430 rear seats? 

 

[cool flash]

I came from a 2018 Merc C 180 9G-Tronic AMG Line to my current 2016 IS 300h F Sport.

If i was to replace the IS I would consider Audi A5 Sportback 2017- S-Line.

I love the new 2021 IS 350 that is unfortunately only available in USA. 

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Alan305 said:

This replaced our IS F Sport, pretty good at corners.
Similar specification to our NX:

Panoramic Roof
Er...

Yes indeed, I would not doubt that car build for single purpose as track car is good at corners. Likewise, it seems there are purpose build tack cars which are FWD. I wonder why (deltawing may be exception, but it wasn't very successful either).

  

2 hours ago, cool flash said:

I love the new 2021 IS 350 that is unfortunately only available in USA. 

Yes IS350 and RC350 never made into UK... what a shame.

[gdh300]

KIA Stinger? V6 variant, of course...