Grim Droning Noise - LS400

[Tinonline]

Hi

I'm nearly up to date with proactive maintenance although I admit I need front upper carrier arms. 

Last job was rear discs and pads that are now bedded in.

Next job will be annual oil & filter change: Lexus oil is now priced more competitively than the Euro brigade so i'll be on the Lexus Parts Direct site.

Problem:

- Cold morning I noticed for the first time a bass level drone resonating from the front end. 

- Now seems ever present although sometimes more noticeable than at others.  

- Not tyre noise as I can hear that distinctly and vary over different surfaces. No out of balance symptoms.

- Speed range 40 - 60 mph.

- It's not engine related as engine speed does not effect it.

- Breaking does not seem to change it either.

- I get a general slight/low level of vibration - but not through the steering.

- Tyres are up to pressure with 4MM+ tread - a bit more fronts wear outer edge but I've had worse.

- Once I had the sensation it was front of vehicle passenger side.

It's nothing obvious and unlike me, although I will fret on it, I'm inclined to leave it until the issue clearly identifies itself if it doesn't drive me mad first.

Any ideas..? 

🤪

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spacewagon52]

Wheel bearing?

Have you had the wheels balanced recently?

[Cotswold Pete]

Had something similar a long way back, was only cured with new tyres, as it was tyres which had worn oddly and were not going to play ball even when I had a full alignment done as they were never going to sit right on the road.

The lesson I learnt was even with new tyres, do an alignment check every 5,000 miles (max) given state of UK roads.  

Try swapping fronts to rear and see if it helps.  If not then is there something just flapping around.  Once had a cavalier where part of bumper had come a bit loose and hummed at motorway speeds, cured with some superglue (I recall)

[Malc]

1 hour ago, Cotswold Pete said:

as they were never going to sit right on the road.

thinking about an Alfa Romeo we had on our garage forecourt for sale long time back ........   the front wheels / tyres had flat spots / areas ....  not obvious to the eye nor to balancing etc ......  could be the tyres .........  what make / age / miles are they I wonder

Malc

[shanra]

I had a brake dust shield that was rusting through and was loose and that made some strange noises.

[Tinonline]

Hi

I’m wondering about the wheel bearing.

My fridge freezer motor is in the process of packing up...please bear with me...😉

Now I can hear the high end damage of the bearing motor-but it is also creating a low bass droan too. 
 

Tyres are Continental 16” diameter...balanced a while ago...I’d expect feedback through the steering wheel yet all is good. Same with flat spots...I’ve had those funnily enough on my Alfa 155. 
 

I can’t get it up on a jack until the weekend.

 

[Mihanicos]

Check the wheel bearings for play and noise.

Check for any loose alternator, power steering nuts and bolts.

Check for worn engine thrust bearing, simply pull forward and push back the crankshaft pulley.

Check the engine mounts for wear. 

Chris.

[Malc]

10 hours ago, Tinonline said:

on my Alfa 155. 

I don't like to say this BUT when we looked, many years ago now,  at Alfa stuff the local Agent in Canterbury had it's workshop full of engines on benches being repaired .....  it seemed to be that the life of a cambelt was usually much much less than the service book schedule ..............  we discovered it was safer to renew them every 15k miles max 

just my thoughts from a while back 

Malc

[Tinonline]

Hi Malc

Yes they have their magic!

Mine is an old 1995 Sport with a chain driven 1.8 - had the head-gasket done a few years back.

It's an LHD and sits in a garage in Spain for most of the year. Now a classic, it feels a bit long in the tooth but it goes very well, has aircon, and we've done a lot of mileage in it. Wife is Spanish so we have roots there. Handy when fixing the car. 🙂  Parts are expensive - labour cheap. Before Brexit I shipped parts from the UK. I'm not going to get the needed 3/4 exhaust system into hand luggage...🧐

Simon

 

 

[Tinonline]

At last now the weather is with us I jacked the car up.

Neither wheel had any play, however the drivers side had a regular click when I spun the wheel. I was sure the vibration noise was passenger side but I suppose it might just seem that way...

Nothing is catching and brakes are recent and in good shape.

Surely has to be the bearing?

Completed an oil change too so that’s for another year. 

[Tinonline]

Come to think of it: drivers side with click click noise rotated freely.

Passenger side where I thought issue is: sounds like brakes rubbing and does not spin so freely but maybe not brakes...

[steve2006]

Is the pad wear even both sides of the calliper ?

[Cotswold Pete]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:27 PM, Tinonline said:

regular click when I spun the wheel.

Could it be a wheel balancing weight just clipping the calipers, though usually only happens after a new tyre fitted and it is an apprentice who does not know clearance on LS is pretty tight.

 

[Tinonline]

I’m going to have a thorough look once again...my diagnosis is usually very fair but this has me a bit at odds.

[Tinonline]

Oh I know I’ve taken so long to get to this.

I was sure the LH bearing was going…all noise was on that side. I checked the balance weights, visual inspection of joints all looked good.

Imagine my shock on a journey when under braking terrible scraping noise erupted from left hand side. Checked the mileage since last brake work…can’t be worn already…despite my driving style.🤭🤫

Then the terrible grating from driver’s side on slow steering on reverse…how I slept that night I’ll never know.

Well, the terrible scraping was a corner, loose and hanging from the engine undercover…snapped and held by a single bolt. Sorted that.

Back to the driver’s side front. Definite clicking on rotating the wheel. Creaking is from that side. Ahh…with hands 10 to 5 I can feel movement.

How difficult to fix at a garage? Ok chucking it at Lexus but nobody else wants to know. That’s it. Fed up. A wheel bearing looking like a minimum of £300 to fix. Forget it.

For now: skf kit with bearing, oil seal, nut, snap ring comes in at 60 quidish. Either someone will deign to fit it for me or I’ll take the thing out for disassembly and reassembly. 
 

I could do it…but I don’t want time and complication of sourcing the tools. Or more cost for a one off job. The Lexus service guide shows hand tools deployed…can’t see a 5 ton press in sight…tempting…

 

[Razor61]

13 hours ago, Tinonline said:

can’t see a 5 ton press in sight…

I'm pretty sure you will need a press to do it yourself, for removing/installing the Axle Hub and for removing/installing the bearing. That is once you've removed the steering knuckle itself to work on.

[Tinonline]

This is great: the later marque 400 instructions.

Yes so a press is needed.

Would one of the 5 ton pullers work, available on eBay?

[Razor61]

I’ve no idea if a 5 ton puller would work, I’d either buy a press or take the axle hub assy to a garage or engineering company for them to press all the stuff out and refit.

[Tinonline]

Yes this the option I’m going for. Get it a place that will do it. 

I did part one of the job this morning.

All went very well. To my surprise…and the upper arm ball joint seems to be ok which I didn’t expect.

To get the nut cap or cover off I just firmly tapped around and levered with a screw driver and mallet.

To stop the upper arm ball joint bolt from turning I held it with a thin pair of grips to get the nut off the last bit.

 

[Tinonline]

Some progress on the bearing replacement:

My friendly non franchise Merc garage didn’t have the equipment to help and a few garages ran away for cover…but UK Tekniks in Maidenhead who have a Lexus/Toyota guru on board gave me a quick slot for Saturday.

With the upright in a small suitcase, I took the train to Maidenhead from Reading. I was back in under 2 hours.

This evening I started to put things back together. I didn’t intend to to it all but make a start. In not very much time I had the upright on and upper arm on and torqued up.

I used my electric impact wrench to drive on the top ball joint nut and used the torque wrench to finish it: worked a treat.

ABS sensor pushed back in. I’ll fit the caliper and clean up the brake pads…I’ve used some brake cleaner already.

Should be good to go. 

[Tinonline]

Now back on the road. Although bearings don’t need running in, a few miles are needed to melt the grease and bed everything in.

Now, you know I really crave OEM.

My preferred route was OEM but too fiddly, over costly so I got the SKF kit for £55 (discounted and it’s well over a ton at some suppliers) for the bearing, oil seal, clip and retaining nut. Genuine SKF interestingly manufactured in Japan.

Removal of old and refit was £50. Given time frame, hub splitting and service this is reasonable.

So £105 all in. If you have the press or puller then it’s parts cost.

I’ve seen this marked up as a really tough job…no it’s not. You do need the right equipment. You can’t bang stuff out with a hammer.

Removing the upright was so easy: don’t take prisoners, use a decent size torque wrench to remove bolts. A normal ratchet is too hard work. I liked a US forum comment regarding tightening up of the upper control arm nut…”creep up on it…don’t let it see you coming…” I used my electric wrench…by the time that’s done it…(it’s not that powerful) I was able to use my torque wrench to finish up to the torque with no complication of the ball joint turning.

I followed the service advice of not disconnecting the pad wear sensor line and opted not to disconnect the abs line either. There’s no reason given for this but logic suggests it might disturb the settings/feedback and I did run the engine to turn the steering so I could get to the brake caliper bolts. 
 

I don’t like copper grease. I’ve applied to brakes and mating surfaces disc to hub and hub to wheel previously…it has gone. Disappeared.

So I want to take out the pins and pads and use brake grease. 
 

Funny for me…I always steered 🤣 away from working on suspension but Lexus Lego is ok…show it a big torque wrench and it’s ok. I know it might be different if you’ve a well driven 250k miler when age has welded planets together…if you need heat…do replace all of the parts.

I did look for US parts…but eventually sourced from AUTODOC. Done that for an indicator unit plus my aged Alfa parts…

As a final thought…£280 to £500 for a bearing change…really. This is a simple service part and replacement.

Welcome to the plumbers and builders federation: “whistle…that’s a tough job…”

The reply is: “no it’s not, I’d do it now if I had the x tool and I don’t mind paying for not having x tool but this is ok for me as a non pro…”

VW used to sell on the ease of removing their engine for major work…yeh it’s just 4 bolts easy as (true). Then a little later: whistle…oh the engine has to come out for that. 🧐

Don’t know what I’d do without this Forum and the support…👍

 

 

On 6/22/2021 at 9:11 PM, Tinonline said:

Some progress on the bearing replacement:

My friendly non franchise Merc garage didn’t have the equipment to help and a few garages ran away for cover…but UK Tekniks in Maidenhead who have a Lexus/Toyota guru on board gave me a quick slot for Saturday.

With the upright in a small suitcase, I took the train to Maidenhead from Reading. I was back in under 2 hours.

This evening I started to put things back together. I didn’t intend to to it all but make a start. In not very much time I had the upright on and upper arm on and torqued up.

I used my electric impact wrench to drive on the top ball joint nut and used the torque wrench to finish it: worked a treat.

ABS sensor pushed back in. I’ll fit the caliper and clean up the brake pads…I’ve used some brake cleaner already.

Should be good to go. 

 

[Razor61]

6 hours ago, Tinonline said:

I always steered 🤣 away from working on suspension but Lexus Lego is ok

Very well put, there’s not a lot to fear if you have decent tools, some mechanical knowledge, take your time and think about it. Being a big car there is also plenty of room to swing a spanner or two.