2009 GS450h hybrid battery reliability?

[Lwerewolf]

31 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

You are the ONLY person who has mentioned mechanically locking the sun gear, no-one else has.

As opposed to, electrically?

11 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

Ok, but if the Sun wheel is locked, then there is no electric been generated.... Which was what I was saying, didn't say it didn't require any electric power AT ALL.... spark plugs need power as well!

For context, the post above that one does mention that you can't "lock" mg1 without powering it, so unless you meant some third (non-electrical and non-mechanical) way... 🙂

32 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

Like say cruising down the motorway at high speed? Also you do realise that the efficiency of electric motors is reduced considerably at high speed? That kinda the point of the hybrid. The electrics work better at low speed, the ICE at higher speeds. 

That's why for example the Tesla model 3 performance only has a max speed of 162 mph, despite been considerably lighter than the GS450h and having an extra 110 KW of power.

If you look at just about any ORNL publication re: Toyota hybrid systems, you might notice that the efficiency chart for the motors is not exactly "best at 0rpm, progressively worse above". Sample below:

...taken from https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/928684

Also the GS (well, the LS, but it's the same motor):

...taken from https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/947393

As for Tesla's (and other EVs) top speed - I was under the impression that it's more of a case of Battery pack voltage sag. You can always overgear the motor and use multiple gears to maintain off-the-line performance (taycan, gs450h/ls600h, ls/lc500h/s220)

46 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

I'm confused, I took that from the link you posted.....
If its marketing material that isn't worth looking at, why did you post it?
And given its backed up by several other pieces of data... I'm confused about what you think is wrong.

Blanket statements are all over the place in auto manufacturers' literature, especially when it comes to articles detailing specific "realizations" - cars, engines, transmissions, suspensions, brakes, whatever. Everything is appropriate, everything is optimised, everything is... insert good adjective here. Quite a few of these don't hold up to scrutiny. As for why I posted that link - it has quite a few specific and concrete implementation details.

"Heretical" mode is any condition in which MG2 generates and MG1 consumes. I've yet to see MG1 stay locked at 0 RPM, other than when the car is stationary and the engine is not running. Don't think I've managed to get it to cruise below +-150rpm at the minimum. Not sure how I'd even try to make the system do that. I've yet to see actual data that indicates that THS cars are locking MG1 at precisely 0rpm during cruise - i.e. executing "geared neutral ratio" via the PSD.

[Steven Lockey]

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

For context, the post above that one does mention that you can't "lock" mg1 without powering it, so unless you meant some third (non-electrical and non-mechanical) way... 🙂

Yeah, this is what I mean about you arguing about stuff I haven't said 🙂

I never said it couldn't be powered to lock the sun cog. This is where I think you are misunderstanding me.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

If you look at just about any ORNL publication re: Toyota hybrid systems, you might notice that the efficiency chart for the motors is not exactly "best at 0rpm, progressively worse above"

I said lower speeds so yeah. I didn't claim to know the exact curve. 

 

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

I was under the impression that it's more of a case of battery pack voltage sag.

Why would speed affect the voltage of the Battery pack?

 

 

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

You can always overgear the motor and use multiple gears to maintain off-the-line performance

Unless I'm mistaken, you lose torque when you gear them up? Not a mechanic so could be wrong there but I think that's the major limit on how much you can gear the electrics up.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

I've yet to see MG1 stay locked at 0 RPM, other than when the car is stationary and the engine is not running.

Kinda my point about splitting hairs. If MG1 is only putting out 1KW, it's basically been used as a engine assist/optimiser rather than driving the car. I'd assume if you got the car at a speed where the ICE was in it's optimal zone this would happen as then using the electrics at all would de-optimise the efficiency rather than increase it. No idea how big this zone would be... might be as small as 1mph so it may be very rare to see it actually doing this in normal usage.

 

9 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

Quite a few of these don't hold up to scrutiny. As for why I posted that link - it has quite a few specific and concrete implementation details.

Yeah, but they can't flat out lie in them without leaving themselves VERY open to a lawsuit. It's a fine line but companies generally try to stay well on the good side of it.


 

[Sherra]

All I know is it's bl***y quick and extremely comfortable😁

[Mossypossy]

Think this thread is getting tied in knots.

See what I did there?

Washed mine yesterday. Good for another 1kw of power output surely?

[The Lexus Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, Sherra said:

All I know is it's bl***y quick and extremely comfortable😁

I can imagine. I'm still holding out for the right one. Can't wait, am very excited to experience one. I'm getting impatient ha ha! 

[The Lexus Enthusiast]

So it looks like I might have found one I like. It's a 2006 (06) plate. Can anyone tell me when they need water pump and timing chain doing At how many miles/years. Thanks guys much appreciated. 

[ColinBarber]

16 minutes ago, The Lexus Enthusiast said:

So it looks like I might have found one I like. It's a 2006 (06) plate. Can anyone tell me when they need water pump and timing chain doing At how many miles/years. Thanks guys much appreciated. 

Neither have a schedule against them. Water pumps tend to leak or get noisy long before they cause major problems and seem quite reliable on the GS450h.

Timing chains do stretch and the tensioner will only compensate so far. Anything over 100k and I'd be wanting to look at the tensioner to see how much travel - but not something you can do when just going to look at a vehicle.

You would expect error codes and/or noise if the chain is stretched too far.

[The Lexus Enthusiast]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

Neither have a schedule against them. Water pumps tend to leak or get noisy long before they cause major problems and seem quite reliable on the GS450h.

Timing chains do stretch and the tensioner will only compensate so far. Anything over 100k and I'd be wanting to look at the tensioner to see how much travel - but not something you can do when just going to look at a vehicle.

You would expect error codes and/or noise if the chain is stretched too far.

Ok got it. Thing is the one I'm looking at has 99,000 miles😅 so looks like could be risky then with the tensioner. 

[johnatg]

The life of a timing chain is highly dependant on oil changes. They will last 250000 miles and more if the oil is changed frequently - I always change mine at least twice as often as manufacturer recommendations - eg 5000 mile intervals.

Manufacturer service intervals are a compromise between cost and service life for fleet managers. They know that fleet cars are generally disposed of before about 80K miles, so the service intervals are set so that the car can be expected to be reliable up to and a bit beyond that. Service it more often, ie change the oil more often, and the car will last longer. Lexus GS are good for 200K miles and more if serviced effectively. Of course, most GS start life as fleet cars.

Unfortunately it can be hard to know how well a car has been treated in an earlier life.

All IMHO and maybe I'm a bit cynical!

[The Lexus Enthusiast]

39 minutes ago, johnatg said:

The life of a timing chain is highly dependant on oil changes. They will last 250000 miles and more if the oil is changed frequently - I always change mine at least twice as often as manufacturer recommendations - eg 5000 mile intervals.

Manufacturer service intervals are a compromise between cost and service life for fleet managers. They know that fleet cars are generally disposed of before about 80K miles, so the service intervals are set so that the car can be expected to be reliable up to and a bit beyond that. Service it more often, ie change the oil more often, and the car will last longer. Lexus GS are good for 200K miles and more if serviced effectively. Of course, most GS start life as fleet cars.

Unfortunately it can be hard to know how well a car has been treated in an earlier life.

All IMHO and maybe I'm a bit cynical!

That’s great to know. Has definitely made me more confident. On the LS430 is every 10 years (can’t remember mileage) so I’m guessing it would be cautious to apply that to a GS too but if it’s been well maintained maybe less strict than that 

[johnatg]

The 2000- Gen 3 LS430 with the 3UZ-FE engine uses a timing belt rather than a chain. Gen 3 & 4 GS450h and GS300h use chains.

[The Lexus Enthusiast]

2 hours ago, johnatg said:

The 2000- Gen 3 LS430 with the 3UZ-FE engine uses a timing belt rather than a chain. Gen 3 & 4 GS450h and GS300h use chains.

Brilliant cheers. If I go see this one then I’ll look at oil colour and service history and assess how much it’s really been looked after. Good to have found this out learned something new 🙂