EV infrastructure

[ALAW]

Would i be alone in thinking we have a mountain to climb here in the UK or even the world. Charging apart when will all the public chargers that are needed be in place. Am i right in saying they haven't even standardized them yet. I realise there are a lot more than what there was a year ago. What about car owners who live in tenaments, flats, skyscrapers etc. What is on the way surely a game change needs to happen or EV is dead. Im bewildered. To add to that the UK energy industry is a shambles and has been for years. Interested to know what you folks think.

[Malc]

Hydrogen fuel cell power all the way please

Simple garage forecourt fill-ups taking no more time than petrol refilling ......  clean energy too and not a drain on the electricity generating power stations 

Japan isn't allowing EVs I understand ........  Belgium is ensuring all HGVs / Buses can only operate in Hydrogen fuel mode too

EV should be dead in the water ................... The EV refuelling doesn't stack up as you say with much of the mass car owning population living in accommodation totally not able to access EV charging points wherever and whatever the volume installed for public use

Malc

[paulrnx]

I can’t ever see widespread use of EVs for the same reasons. Most substations couldn’t cope with with the extra demand from local housing trying to charge EVs. Most businesses won’t be able to have multiple charging points for the same reasons. Not enough generating capacity either. The leadtimes for new power stations and infrastructure are huge. All pie in the sky really.

[ColinBarber]

A mountain to climb for sure but I think it would be foolish to dismiss it outright.

There are a large number of homes that have driveways and therefore can easily charge at home. Some councils are now putting in channels in the pavement to allow a flex to be run out to a parking space outside your property if you don't have a driveway and those people in skyscrapers in the middle of towns will probably be pressured by environmentalists not to have a vehicle at all in the future.

I imagine that many people who purchase an EV will look into solar panels for their home. If enough people do that then it eases the centralised infrastructure (power stations). People are clearly going to be working from home more than in the past, internet shopping, grocery home delivery etc. all reduce the number of miles people are doing in their vehicles and therefore energy requirements, per vehicle, will reduce.

For those that cannot charge at home I'd expect to see a large number of charging stations spring up at offices, supermarkets, cinemas, shopping centres - so you get your weekly charge whilst you are occupied doing other things.

I know of a company that is trialling a few hundred new charging stations, but with plans to install 70,000. There will be multiple companies like this.

[Herbie]

It's just not going to happen in the timescale it would need to. By the time new infrastructure was installed and existing infrastructure modernised, the 'next best thing'^TM (probably and hopefully hydrogen fuel cells/stations in the required quantities) will have arrived.

We currently have almost 9,000 new homes being built to the north-west of our town and I'm sure there are other such things going on in other towns too, but no new power stations will be coming onstream any time soon. The demand created by these new housing estates alone will bring the grid down to its knees, let alone EV charging as well.

And so we come to the real reason behind 'smart meters'. They aren't there to help us save money but to allow the generating companies to remotely switch you off supply for a while so that they can manage demand on an already creaking network.

A good place to keep your eyes on is http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ It shows current and historical demand and how much each fuel is contributing (screenshot below):

[65mike]

Hi all.

I agree with Malcolm hydrogen fuel cell is the logical way our generating capacity cannot cope as it is imagine everybody trying to charge there car in the evening would be back to the 1970's sitting in doors with a candle for light.

You cannot keep on using farming land to put solar panels up to generate electricity and i do not want a bl***y windmill in my back garden.

I do not have a garage that i can get the car in and so i park it outside my house on the road so how do i charge it as i do about 100 miles to work each week and no we do not have charging points at the firm i work for and who wants to spend for ever at Tesco to charge the bl***y car to get 100 miles again i do not.!!!.

Colin you mention about some councils digging a trench so you can run a cable to charge your car they cannot even repair a pot hole so what chance is there of them getting this wright.

No sorry forget EV go for hydrogen fuel cell cars or failing that just keep what you have got.

I fully intend to run mine for many years to come yet would be nice to get another 10 years out of it.

65mike

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, 65mike said:

Colin you mention about some councils digging a trench so you can run a cable to charge your car they cannot even repair a pot hole so what chance is there of them getting this wright.

I don't hold out any hope for my incompetent council, or the cowboy sub-contractors they use but maybe some are ok. Possibly they aren't doing it themselves but are giving permission for the owner to get them installed privately - obviously adding to cost of going EV but the overall saving for some people is substantial.

Here is an example:

[Herbie]

Unless the connector can be locked in place I can just imagine lots of fun being had by the local feral gangs disconnecting the charging leads as they wander around looking for something to vandalise or rob.

[ColinBarber]

55 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Unless the connector can be locked in place I can just imagine lots of fun being had by the local feral gangs disconnecting the charging leads as they wander around looking for something to vandalise or rob.

It does lock in place automatically, certainly on the UXe anyway, and only allows release once you unlock the doors. Otherwise yes it would be the modern equivalent of kids steeling everyones dust caps.

Even if there is a vehicle that doesn't lock it in place, they all have Internet connectivity where the owner would be notified on their phone app that charging had been interrupted.

[ALAW]

10 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

A mountain to climb for sure but I think it would be foolish to dismiss it outright.

There are a large number of homes that have driveways and therefore can easily charge at home. Some councils are now putting in channels in the pavement to allow a flex to be run out to a parking space outside your property if you don't have a driveway and those people in skyscrapers in the middle of towns will probably be pressured by environmentalists not to have a vehicle at all in the future.

I imagine that many people who purchase an EV will look into solar panels for their home. If enough people do that then it eases the centralised infrastructure (power stations). People are clearly going to be working from home more than in the past, internet shopping, grocery home delivery etc. all reduce the number of miles people are doing in their vehicles and therefore energy requirements, per vehicle, will reduce.

For those that cannot charge at home I'd expect to see a large number of charging stations spring up at offices, supermarkets, cinemas, shopping centres - so you get your weekly charge whilst you are occupied doing other things.

I know of a company that is trialling a few hundred new charging stations, but with plans to install 70,000. There will be multiple companies like this.

Hi Colin yes some mountain to climb no doubt about it. I wouldn't dismiss it outright in fact i think it may well be part of a balanced portfolio for motoring overhaul something akin to a balanced portfolio for energy Gas wind nuclear etc. The future has got to be Hydrogen fuel cell. The solar panel attracted very good feed in tariffs but that has been reduced dramatically, but still something to consider. There are more charging stations going in everyday but no where near enough and fast enough.  

[ALAW]

17 hours ago, Malc said:

Hydrogen fuel cell power all the way please

Simple garage forecourt fill-ups taking no more time than petrol refilling ......  clean energy too and not a drain on the electricity generating power stations 

Japan isn't allowing EVs I understand ........  Belgium is ensuring all HGVs / Buses can only operate in Hydrogen fuel mode too

EV should be dead in the water ................... The EV refuelling doesn't stack up as you say with much of the mass car owning population living in accommodation totally not able to access EV charging points wherever and whatever the volume installed for public use

Malc

Got to agree Malc i think this will be the way to go. 

[ALAW]

8 hours ago, Herbie said:

It's just not going to happen in the timescale it would need to. By the time new infrastructure was installed and existing infrastructure modernised, the 'next best thing'^TM (probably and hopefully hydrogen fuel cells/stations in the required quantities) will have arrived.

We currently have almost 9,000 new homes being built to the north-west of our town and I'm sure there are other such things going on in other towns too, but no new power stations will be coming onstream any time soon. The demand created by these new housing estates alone will bring the grid down to its knees, let alone EV charging as well.

And so we come to the real reason behind 'smart meters'. They aren't there to help us save money but to allow the generating companies to remotely switch you off supply for a while so that they can manage demand on an already creaking network.

A good place to keep your eyes on is http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ It shows current and historical demand and how much each fuel is contributing (screenshot below):

Herbie I agree entirely. They are building houses like mad here and in flood zone 3. Hydrogen fuel cell is the future the end product is water. The infrastructure is practically already in place just needs the manufacturers to get making them get the price affordable and bingo. Thats a great link to show current demand. 

[ALAW]

Technology in motoring accelerates at good speed in fact probably one of the fastest growing technology's out there. For that reason EV will develop quickly over the next few years. There will be huge investment especially around batteries. They will become much much smaller really small something you couldn't even imagine right now. Charging will be standardised and more importantly the time taken to get a full charge it will come down to half an hour. For me that's the bugbear it will come down to half an hour. A hydrogen fuel cell will be same as going for petrol in and out job done. It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota thought hydrogen was the way forward.

[ColinBarber]

7 hours ago, ALAW said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota thought hydrogen was the way forward.

They do, or certainly did, which is why the Mirai has existed for a long time now, and why their EV development has been slow to date, but progress is extremely slow. It may ultimately be the solution but I think EVs will be the stepping stone for some time.

[steve2006]

Thankfully after having had his car sitting on the drive for nearly 2 years James eventually managed to find a suitable replacement for the defective hydrogen cell from a local breakers. No warranty on the used part was implied or given but Dave the scrappy said it was working fine before removal.

 

[Herbie]

Apparently James May is selling his Toyota Mirai because lack of hydrogen filling stations make it very difficult to use as a daily driver unless you live near one of the eleven there currently are in the UK.

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/james-may-selling-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car/

[Cotswold Pete]

I wonder if cars just become so expensive to run only the well off will be able to afford to drive (bit like in the early days of motoring and we all walked to work) and that society will slowly adjust.

Although man is a clever creature, the challenges of improving Battery life even further is not a quick fix, and challenge of providing the cabling and solar panels to do all this will make the challenge of getting faster abroad to all and sundry like a ruddy walk in the park.  

Hydrogen makes sense once we can work out how to overcome the huge losses (or energy wasted) caused by charging a cell and the waste converting back.  I read in some rail magazine Hydrogen Fuel cells tech is about 4 time more energy consuming than equivalent diesel engine but it is being worked on.

Sure we will work it out, but the boffins are boffins not miracle workers, so maybe one answer is cars that can be fuelled by useless politicians (plenty of infrastructure to tap into there).💀

[Malc]

44 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Sure we will work it out,

BP is in that process I understand .......  developing and expanding it's refuelling estate globally as fast as it can ..............  and happy for people to spend lots of time at them ..........  it's said to make 50% of it's profit these days from shoppers buying groceries etc at it's refuelling station stores

Moving away from fossil fuels profitability as fast as it can sensibly do so

Malc

[Britprius]

The problem with hydrogen as a fuel is the amount of energy required to produce it. It then requires lots of energy to compress it into a liquid under very high pressure to store it. What happens when you run out of hydrogen on the side of the road? With an electric car a generator in the back of the AA van could get you moving if you run out of power.
Electric cars are still very much in there infancy as far as Battery technology is concerned. The modern internal combustion engine has taken close to 100 years to get it to about 40% efficient. Higher capacity batteries with faster charging times are rapidly being developed. Who knows where we will be in ten years time Battery wise.
Charging times at the moment I agree are no where near that of filling with petrol, but many Battery cars can be charged to 80% of capacity in the time it takes to drink a coffee 
Solar panels are also rapidly being developed with output power for the same size panel increasing buy 30% in the last 5 years, and still improving.
I agree things will need to change rapidly as far as charging infrastructure , but look how many car makers are now producing electric vehicles. 

John.

[ALAW]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:24 PM, Britprius said:

The problem with hydrogen as a fuel is the amount of energy required to produce it. It then requires lots of energy to compress it into a liquid under very high pressure to store it. What happens when you run out of hydrogen on the side of the road? With an electric car a generator in the back of the AA van could get you moving if you run out of power.
Electric cars are still very much in there infancy as far as battery technology is concerned. The modern internal combustion engine has taken close to 100 years to get it to about 40% efficient. Higher capacity batteries with faster charging times are rapidly being developed. Who knows where we will be in ten years time battery wise.
Charging times at the moment I agree are no where near that of filling with petrol, but many battery cars can be charged to 80% of capacity in the time it takes to drink a coffee 
Solar panels are also rapidly being developed with output power for the same size panel increasing buy 30% in the last 5 years, and still improving.
I agree things will need to change rapidly as far as charging infrastructure , but look how many car makers are now producing electric vehicles. 

John.

You make a good point John. Battery capacity and size will change significantly no doubt about that. The charging time will also reduce significantly. Saying that i dont think it will get down to the time it takes to fill up. Thread above mentions BP changing all their stations and the fact they make more from sale of various goods than fuel. Shop while you wait ?. Supermarket in our town were suprised at the weekly profit take from putting a couple of racks of clothes in.