Flat battery issues - IS300H - 2019

[Superduner]

If it does not say AGM, then it isn't one.  AFAIK, you can't use a Ctek reconditioning charge on an AGM Battery although I would be happy to be proved wrong!

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, Superduner said:

AFAIK, you can't use a Ctek reconditioning charge on an AGM battery although I would be happy to be proved wrong!

Just to make you happy:

 

The recon stage is exactly the same whether you have flooded or AGM, but the standard charging voltages are different. You can select AGM and Recon together - bottom row in the above chart.

[Superduner]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

The recon stage is exactly the same whether you have flooded or AGM, but the standard charging voltages are different. You can select AGM and Recon together - bottom row in the above chart.

The manual for my MSX 7 which is about 10 years old says that the recon programme is for wet and ca/ca batteries.

Hmmm...I'll drop them an email.

[Superduner]

And this is their answer to my question asking if it's ok to recon AGM batteries seeing as the manual for my Ctek says (or implies) that it isn't.  So now it's 😞 again.

"Yes, it is very much true. Still. 

Recond program is developed  for flooded batteries (including EFB), to  mix/balance  the flooded acid inside.
Recond can be used to treat an already stratified Battery, or to prevent severe stratification.
As a preventive treatment, we recommend once or twice a year, depending on Battery characteristics and usage. 
AGM or GEL batteries are not flooded, and therefore does not suffer from stratification. 
Reconditioning an AGM Battery will not cause any harm what so ever but the benefits will not be measurable or noticeable – unlike its use on flooded / standard batteries, where performance and acid density are improved and can be measured.
 
For GEL batteries, recond can be harmful, if used often, because using too high voltage can dry the gel inside the Battery and weaken the Battery instead of empowering it.
NOTE:
When you choose Recond program, you should note that Recond program always starts with a normal Battery charging program. Then, after Battery has reached fully charged, Recond treatment itself is implemented. Depending of charger model and Battery size, Recond step lasts from ½ to 4 hours, on top of the charging time.
When charger turns to green light, the program is completed. 
 
I will explain here more about the topic:
So, Recond is made for remixing flooded acid inside the battery– hence, stratified batteries.
What is stratification?
Stratification is when the acid inside the Battery gets layered.
As long as the acid and the water of the electrolyte in the Battery are well mixed, the Battery works as it should.  But if the acid and water separate into layers, the Battery just cannot be charged anymore regarding the parts that are layered, not by the alternator, nor by a charger.
So, acid that gets layered inside a Battery causes loss of capacity.
WHY does the batteries get stratified?
Stratification can happen if the alternator charging voltage is too low or the charging time is insufficient (due to short drives for instance, or a lot of parallel loads during drive). Or if a Battery is deeply discharged and unused for a period. Different batteries suffer more or less of stratification, depending of the Battery type and qualifications. 
Why is stratification a problem?
A stratified Battery cannot store voltage as well as a healthy Battery, and behaves as a smaller Battery than it is. When conventionally charged -  by the charger or the alternator-  only the parts that still are ok, will be charged. So, a Battery seems to be fully charged – but can be emptied by one start attempt. Stratification also promotes corrosion on the upper half of the plates and sulphation problems at the bottom.
Why does recond help?
Recond causes a controlled gassing that remixes the acid and equalizes the acid balance and through that the Battery capacity is reclaimed and Battery efficiency is restored, partially or almost all of it, depending how severe the problem is.
 
Just one more thing: Do not mix Stratification with Sulphation problems! Sulphation affects all kind of lead/acid batteries AND every CTEK charging program starts with a desulphation step, so you do not have to worry about that!!
 
Hope this was helpful
Best regards,
CTEK SUPPORT TEAM "

And I guess that they would know!

[iousin009]

Hi Members,

I'm back again. Got Battery replaced by the dealer on Monday 17th. The Battery model is same as mentioned here

It's a Toyota 45AH, 325A.

Put my noco to work on the same night for 24 hours. Removed it on Tuesday night, then on Wednesday morning did a test. Lexus computer showed 12.3 volts and my Battery tester showed 12.54 volts !

As it's a new Battery thought I'll give it another go with a proper tester as my old tester doesn't have any option of selecting Battery type and input CCA. So immediately ordered Topdon

On Thursday drove the car continously for 2 hours. Parked around 9PM.

Friday around 9PM tested with topdon. Have selected "AGM Flat plate" and input CCA 325 (as on Battery written 325A). It showed health 100% with 91% charged.

 

Waited for another two days and tested today(Sunday) around 9PM. 78% charged.

 

Think with this rate in 8-9 days Battery will go down to 50% charged. Will test again after 3 days and then will put noco to work if not driving.

At least the new Battery is not getting flat every 4 days.

Still have doubts about the 5-6% daily drain. Does others have observed similar drain with their IS 300h batteries (45AH)? I'm happy to put noco to work for a day every week, think will have trouble going on a two week holiday, will need to disconnect the Battery in such situations.

Thanks for all the support.

 

[ColinBarber]

4 minutes ago, iousin009 said:

I'm happy to put noco to work for a day every week, think will have trouble going on a two week holiday, will need to disconnect the battery in such situations.

You should be fine leaving it for two weeks. After 5 days the smart entry system slows down which reduces power consumption.

[paulrnx]

I’d be happy to have my smart entry permanently disabled to be honest. Always seemed an answer to a problem that didn’t exist to me.

[Lexxieman]

I was lucky to escape the UK in February and left my 2014 Lexus IS300h in an airport car park for 5 weeks. When I got back the engine started normally. I have now part exchanged it for a 2019 model just acquired three days ago and am worried about what I have read. Surely Lexus must be aware of what is different and why the newer cars suffer from this? It sounds like  I will have to go and buy a Noco 5.

[iousin009]

2 hours ago, Lexxieman said:

I was lucky to escape the UK in February and left my 2014 Lexus IS300h in an airport car park for 5 weeks.

The Battery and electrics might both be different. Was the 2014 had the same 45/49AH Battery?

[Herbie]

2 hours ago, Lexxieman said:

just acquired three days ago and am worried about what I have read. Surely Lexus must be aware of what is different and why the newer cars suffer from this?

No need to be worried, just be aware. And yes, they do know because it's not a 'problem', it's designed like this.

A conventional car has a beefy Battery because a starter motor will pull upwards of 300A when cranking the engine. Hybrids don't have a starter motor and it takes around just 20A or less to get the car into READY mode, so no need for a huge, beefy Battery.

This helps Toyota/Lexus in a couple of ways. Smaller capacity Battery is cheaper, so an economic benefit there. Smaller Battery also weighs less, which helps towards keeping the whole weight of the car down, which helps to reduce emissions levels.

Probably doesn't affect you or me as individual owners but extrapolated over hundreds of thousands of cars worlwide and you can see it makes sense - to them, at least.

When you're fast asleep in bed at night the 12V Battery is still providing power to such things as the clock, the radio presets, the alarm and so on. This is called the quiescent current drain and, although I've never seen a specific figure mentioned for Toy/Lex, around about 50mA or 0.005A is considered to be 'normal'.

In a perfect world, if we assume that you've got a brand new Battery that is fully charged, if you left it stood unused (say, at an airport car park) you can work out how long it would last. The 12V Battery in my RX is 51Ah, which means it (in theory at least) could supply 51A for 1 hour, or 25.5A for 2 hours and so on.

At a draw of 50mA, a brand new, fully charged Battery would last for 1,020 hours (42.5 days or just over 6 weeks) before becoming completely flat. As batteries get older, changes happen and they lose capacity. Plus, given that we need about 20A to start the car, it would become useless for this purpose well before it went completely flat.

This means that, for 'real world' purposes, you may get 3 weeks out of it.

[iousin009]

After 7 days parked my Battery was showing 60% charged.

 

Just summarising my thread.

My 2019 IS 300h came fitted with the 49AH panasonic Battery. I was driving quite less (maybe once a week 10-15 minutes)  and got flattened once. Since then even though driving at least one hour a week, was still getting flat if being left for 1 week. This got worse over time and my Battery got Flat 5 times, think it lost around 50% of it's capacity around this time. So was getting flat every fourth day.

Have been to dealer twice, both the time they tested and just sent me back saying Battery is all good!

Then with the help of these forums have done some testing and then went to the dealer again with some numbers at hand, he was finally convinced to replace the Battery. By this time batteries were out of stock. I was given an option to replace at kwik-fit or Halfords. Halfords said they will not touch the Lexus hybrids Battery. Kwik-fit were going to put the battery whose width is 172mm, not sure how as existing Battery width is 125mm!

I waited for Battery to be in stock with the dealer. Was putting noco to work every fourth day.

After replacing the Battery the last two cmments above are the results.

My major finding is (as highlighed in the beginning of the thread by some members) just never get the Battery to go flat, once it's flat it'll end up with all sorts of troubles and have to be replaced.

Thanks to all the members without their help this wouldn't have been possible.

 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, iousin009 said:

The battery and electrics might both be different. Was the 2014 had the same 45/49AH battery?

No, not in any meaningful way. Same Battery has been used from 2013. Three weeks plus is normal and expected on a fully charged Battery in good condition.

What isn't fine is the covid situation where people haven't been using their vehicles enough to actually put enough charge back into the Battery that has been consumed whilst being idle and therefore gradually the Battery becomes more and more discharged, ultimately leading to a flat Battery which also damaging the Battery so that its capacity is reduced. You end up in a death spiral when the time it takes discharge the Battery gets less and less until you cannot go more than a day or two without being able to start the car.

This is no different than any other vehicle that uses a 12v lead acid Battery. It's just that on the hybrid vehicles that Battery is a little smaller than on a conventional vehicle and therefore it starts to happen sooner. The AA/RAC et al have all been busy helping people with all types of vehicles with flat batteries over the last year.

[iousin009]

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

At a draw of 50mA, a brand new, fully charged battery would last for 1,020 hours (42.5 days or just over 6 weeks) before becoming completely flat. As batteries get older, changes happen and they lose capacity. Plus, given that we need about 20A to start the car, it would become useless for this purpose well before it went completely flat.

This means that, for 'real world' purposes, you may get 3 weeks out of it.

 

36 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

No, not in any meaningful way. Same battery has been used from 2013. Three weeks plus is normal and expected on a fully charged battery in good condition.

You guys reckon I still have some draw issues with my car? I can go to the dealer for further investigations. He'll charge me for investigation.

I'll do more tests when I'm not driving, right now weather is getting good so will be doing long drives every weekend.

I'll do tests with 10/13/16 days parked and will report back here. I have another old car so can manage without driving this one.

[wharfhouse]

19 minutes ago, iousin009 said:

 

You guys reckon I still have some draw issues with my car? I can go to the dealer for further investigations. He'll charge me for investigation.

I'll do more tests when I'm not driving, right now weather is getting good so will be doing long drives every weekend.

I'll do tests with 10/13/16 days parked and will report back here. I have another old car so can manage without driving this one.

Why kill a perfectly good new Battery - if Lexus have fitted an original Battery then go and enjoy the car as normal rather than worrying about a possible parasitic drain on a 2019 car. Assuming there was nothing that is non-factory fitted then clearly the original Battery succumbed to lockdown and not being used regularly but now you are on a new Battery and lockdown easing it sounds like you will be using the car again as intended. If you do the "test" leaving the car for eg 16 days then whether still starts the car or not you have probably taken some life out of the Battery leaving it that long without any need. My 2014 IS300h is still on it's original Battery. I do drive it regularly a few times a week and for reasonable distances. However, it does get left for a week or so sometimes (or even a couple of weeks with just the odd journey of a few miles) and in fact I did leave it for a week in January this year outside in sub-zero temperatures and the car started without hesitation on returning to it. I do always have a charged starter pack (one of the ones you can keep in the glovebox) just in case the Battery decides one day not to work (as I appreciate you get no pre-warning of failure like a Battery for a normal ICE starter) but I'm certainly not worrying about the Battery one day failing (beyond the sensible precaution of the starter pack) as that will happen to all cars at a certain age. If your new Battery fails in what could be described as in "normal" designed for driving and parking routines then definitely take it back to Lexus for investigation - I assume the car is still under warranty? If not for peace of mind take out an Extended Warranty - wouldn't cover the 12V Battery alone but would cover if there is anything wrong with the car itself.

 

[paulrnx]

I’m still going to see if I can get my comfort access disabled by the dealership next time it is in. I’d much rather disable this than mess around with a charger and/or a jump device.

[ColinBarber]

6 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

I’m still going to see if I can get my comfort access disabled by the dealership next time it is in. I’d much rather disable this than mess around with a charger and/or a jump device.

You can just do it yourself in the menu system.

[paulrnx]

On 5/30/2021 at 5:54 PM, ColinBarber said:

You can just do it yourself in the menu system.

Thanks. I’ll check 👍

[David lings]

I have recently bought a 2017 IS300h and have also had a flat Battery issue requiring AA assistance.

i had a tyre issue and on getting it fixed i followed the users guide to reset the tyre low pressure icon only for the procedure to flatten the Battery.

The Battery was checked by Lexus and found to be ok other than low charge which was strange as the car had done two long runs (over 20 miles) post being jump started.

Lexus had no answer as to why the Battery was not fully charged and asked to monitor for a few days and return if the problem recurred.

The problem seems to be that something in the car design has left it prone to high Battery consumption when used in auxiliary mode for such things as following a Lexus procedure, using the radio, etc.

Since never using anything without ‘powering up’ I have not had any further flat Battery issues but it has certainly knocked my confidence the the cars reliability.

Does not seem right that Lexus owners have to carry with them a “jump starter” to avoid an hour or more stranded awaiting Lexus Assist to jump start at the car

 

[David lings]

Just noticed the response on expected voltage and will monitor the Battery voltage over the next few days including when using some auxiliary functions.

thanks

[200h]

when you use accessories i.e the compressor or listening to the radio whilst on your lunch break

make sure you turn on the hybrid system otherwise you will get a flat Battery,

as long as the hybrid system is turned on you'll never flatten your Battery again

as the car will start when needed to re charge the Battery

also when the car is running never leave the car in the N position for too long

as this can also flatten the Battery as the Battery will only charge when in P or D.

i am assuming this is your 1st hybrid lexus so you will need to do things slightly different to a

std petrol or diesel vehicle .

[ColinBarber]

16 hours ago, David lings said:

The battery was checked by Lexus and found to be ok other than low charge which was strange as the car had done two long runs (over 20 miles) post being jump started.

If the Battery charge was very low it will take the vehicle 3+ hours to charge it up fully - 20 miles just isn't enough. You are best to use an external Battery charger to fully charge the Battery then rely on the vehicle to maintain the Battery charge whist driving/in 'Ready' mode.

As Mark has stated above, always put your vehicle into Ready mode when using accessories and let the petrol engine cut in/out as needed.

[iousin009]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:33 PM, David lings said:

Just noticed the response on expected voltage and will monitor the battery voltage over the next few days including when using some auxiliary functions.

thanks

My readings indicate that this Battery voltage is different than the standard AGM voltage chart.

At 12.55 volts my meter indicated 91% charged, so think a 100% charge will be around 12.65

[paulrnx]

I’d have thought 100% charge was 13.2V based on each Battery cell delivering 2.2V in a fully charged state?

[Superduner]

I found that even after a 2 hour run my Ctek charger considered that the Battery was"flat"and took another 3 or 4 hours to get it up to"full". And that's with a new Battery. Now it's warmer, I found that the small Battery keeps its charge a lot longer than during the winter.

I'm still monitoring with a Bluetooth monitor and over the last 2 weeks the loss in voltage is about half of what it was over the same period in February/March

[iousin009]

On 6/6/2021 at 9:32 AM, paulrnx said:

I’d have thought 100% charge was 13.2V based on each battery cell delivering 2.2V in a fully charged state?

Yea it was weird both my old and new replaced Battery gave same readings and with two different meters. If you scan through this thread from the beginning, it should have more numbers. Not sure if any other members have recorded their IS 300h Battery voltage.