Tranmission Oil - Anyone?

[nicnac]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

ohhhh.... so it is now picture contest?! 😁

I Win! ........meet Tribble

 

 

[Ozzay]

Tribbles changed many oils in his life by the looks of it.

[Linas.P]

He looks clearly tired of this topic as well... 

[Mr Vlad]

Well because of all the pros and cons 'arguments' I thought I'd find a long standing transmission specialist of great rebute. Had about a 30 min chat. 

Jist of his 30+ year experience was no need to drain and fill gearbox oil. The oil used is a fully synthetic oil which never loses its viscosity. He also said that over time crud builds up, and as it's very recently been posted here, and draining up to 4 litres and replacing it can swirl up the settled crud and do more harm than good.

However he stumped me a bit as he's had 4 litres out whilst draining but I told him Lexus only get out between 1.5 and 2 litres. 

Another scenario I put to him. What about draining upto 2 litres and refilling annually. His view is no point really as the new oil will get dirty very quickly. But he also said its up to the individual but because there isn't a crystal ball you can't predict what is going to happen. But again no harm or good would prevail by doing it yearly. 

Another scenario was, what if a car from new had 4 litres of transmission fluid drained at 40k mile intervals. If he knew that car had it done every 40k miles and he bought that car at 100k miles he'd do the oil at 120k miles.

So basically there really isn't any reason to do it but there isn't any reason not to do it.

Me? I think I'll get a quote for a gearbox overhaul lol.

[m4rkw]

35 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

So basically there really isn't any reason to do it but there isn't any reason not to do it.

Opinions differ. I am extremely skeptical that transmission fluid never loses its viscosity, but in any case that isn't the only factor mandating a change, some good information here:

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/45

 

[nicnac]

39 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Well because of all the pros and cons 'arguments' I thought I'd find a long standing transmission specialist of great rebute. Had about a 30 min chat. 

Jist of his 30+ year experience was no need to drain and fill gearbox oil. The oil used is a fully synthetic oil which never loses its viscosity. He also said that over time crud builds up, and as it's very recently been posted here, and draining up to 4 litres and replacing it can swirl up the settled crud and do more harm than good.

However he stumped me a bit as he's had 4 litres out whilst draining but I told him Lexus only get out between 1.5 and 2 litres. 

Another scenario I put to him. What about draining upto 2 litres and refilling annually. His view is no point really as the new oil will get dirty very quickly. But he also said its up to the individual but because there isn't a crystal ball you can't predict what is going to happen. But again no harm or good would prevail by doing it yearly. 

Another scenario was, what if a car from new had 4 litres of transmission fluid drained at 40k mile intervals. If he knew that car had it done every 40k miles and he bought that car at 100k miles he'd do the oil at 120k miles.

So basically there really isn't any reason to do it but there isn't any reason not to do it.

Me? I think I'll get a quote for a gearbox overhaul lol.

your so called expert is full of *****............ he is a mechanic !!!!!!!!! not a qualified engineer ...........................listen to a grease monkey if you want ............... I will not give any more advice as a qualified person on here . DO AS YOU WANT .....its your cars ...........end off !!!!.............................PS 50 years experience + qualifications here.......................... 

[m4rkw]

2 minutes ago, nicnac said:

your so called expert is full of *****............ he is a mechanic !!!!!!!!! not a qualified engineer ...........................listen to a grease monkey if you want ............... I will not give any more advice as a qualified person on here . DO AS YOU WANT .....its your cars ...........end off !!!!.............................PS 50 years experience + qualifications here.......................... 

Would just like to note that I was much more polite than nicnac 😛

[m4rkw]

48 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Well because of all the pros and cons 'arguments' I thought I'd find a long standing transmission specialist of great rebute. Had about a 30 min chat. 

Would be grateful if you could share the name of his garage so I know never to take my car there 🙂

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

However he stumped me a bit as he's had 4 litres out whilst draining but I told him Lexus only get out between 1.5 and 2 litres. 

Another scenario I put to him. What about draining upto 2 litres and refilling annually. His view is no point really as the new oil will get dirty very quickly.

Lexus definitely gets ~3.5L out of when pan is removed.

And that is true - the whole "gravy in the bag thing" is little bit of joke. That fluid would look the same after 2 years and 20k miles.

Yes in theory ATF does not lose viscosity and it being sealed unit dirt or other contamination ingress is significantly reduced. Meaning any contamination would be internal. For small stuff there are magnets and filter, for big stuff.... well for big stuff you get new gearbox.  

Now I am not advocating for never changing the fluid, but as mentioned many times I see no justification, economical, wear prevention etc. for doing it regularly say at 50k intervals or without any particular reason.

[nicnac]

I give up ................ TOO many ENGINEERS ON HERE .............................jeeeez!!!!!

[m4rkw]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

For small stuff there are magnets and filter, for big stuff.... well for big stuff you get new gearbox.  

The *replaceable* filter assembly is one of the main reasons to change the fluid. But I'm out, you know my opinion.

[Linas.P]

I looked into my filter after 193k and it was completely clean. Like literally there was nothing in it. Yes light brown paper was the dark brown colour like fluid, but that is it.

I am 90% positive that brand new filter and brand new fluid which was put in the car probably 400 miles ago would look exactly the same now as the old ones... just because ~3.5L added by now would have mixed with ~3L remaining into 7L or "visually" dirty fluid.

@nicnac - you call mechanics "grease monkeys", but you feel that engineers are some sort of royalty. There are 2 parts of puzzle here - practice and theory. I appreciate the information from engineers in theory and I appreciate the information from mechanics in practice. So far the statistics proves mechanics opinion to be closer to the truth.

I am not saying that you are wrong and I am not saying that fluid should never be changed, but likewise I think you blowing too big of a bubble out of nothing.

[nicnac]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

I looked into my filter after 193k and it was completely clean. Like literally there was nothing in it. Yes light brown paper was the dark brown colour like fluid, but that is it.

I am 90% positive that brand new filter and brand new fluid which was put in the car probably 400 miles ago would look exactly the same now as the old ones... just because ~3.5L added by now would have mixed with ~3L remaining into 7L or "visually" dirty fluid.

@nicnac - you call mechanics "grease monkeys", but you feel that engineers are some sort of royalty. There are 2 parts of puzzle here - practice and theory. I appreciate the information from engineers in theory and I appreciate the information from mechanics in practice. So far the statistics proves mechanics opinion to be closer to the truth.

I am not saying that you are wrong and I am not saying that fluid should never be changed, but likewise I think you blowing too big of a bubble out of nothing.

What Ia m saying is that non technical people should stick to non technical subjects . They confuse people as to the best approach to following good engineering practice . Thus like Trumpy misleading the innocent . I am an engineer but have also a lot of practical experience designing and working with gearboxes , combustion engines , gas turbines and various other mechanical disciplines . Thus I feel qualified to make a educated assessment of such matters . It really doesnt matter in he end . I sometimes wonder if people on these boards want technical advice , or if they just want to debate endlessly , with no technical background to the statements they make . 

 

[nicnac]

13 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

but likewise I think you blowing too big of a bubble out of nothing.

"Pot calling Kettle black "  springs to mind Linas !

[m4rkw]

14 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I looked into my filter after 193k and it was completely clean. Like literally there was nothing in it. Yes light brown paper was the dark brown colour like fluid, but that is it.

I don't disbelieve you but this is a sample size of 1. One person survived covid with mild symptoms, should we all forget about lockdown and go get on the tube?

People who are trustworthy, work with cars and transmissions every day and, crucially, know what they're talking about all say change the fluid to prevent problems. I know you got lucky with yours and that's great, very happy for you, but advising others to follow suit on a public forum is potentially going to cost some people a small fortune.

[Linas.P]

16 minutes ago, nicnac said:

Thus I feel qualified to make a educated assessment of such matters.

I absolutely have no doubt about it, further I never said you are wrong about technical matter. 

As you know my work is more about counting money, and from my perspective changing fluid is not only the matter of what is absolutely the best for the gearbox, but as well on the possible probabilities what is most financially sensible options. I just don't see 50k fluid change interval as viable considering depreciations and all other financial points. 

So what do I do... I take risk based approach... I know that never changing the oil will eventually grenade the gearbox and I know that often changing the oil is waste of money, so I choose somewhere in between - that is to change the oil, but only when there are some indication of that being needed (which for experienced driver are quite obvious). That is my approach and I think I made it clear - it is for the reader to decide what works for them.

15 minutes ago, m4rkw said:

I don't disbelieve you but this is a sample size of 1.

And my car was driven exceptionally hard, often cruising for hours at the tops speed, I was often engine braking as well (which wears gearbox more), I always... and I mean always drove it hard, used braking to boost for launch etc. None of which is generally considered good for gearbox.

If anything the way I drove my car was constant stress-testing for gearbox. 

Should you take my example and use that as benchmark... no definitely not, but again if there gearboxes would be known to fail without fluid change I am sure we would know more examples of them failing. To my knowledge there are none.

What I am saying - so far the precedent is that they don't fail, when we have dozen people coming here or somewhere else (say clublexus.com) and complaining about failed gearboxes that precedent may change. However, considering it has been nearly 16 years and many cars are now past 200k and some even past 300k I somehow don't see anything new coming-up soon... and even if it does then it hardly matters as by the time is 16 years old and 300k miles it is worthless anyway. 

[Mr Vlad]

Blimey. I thought I'd post about a chat I had with a gearbox specialist of 35+ years. 

Oh the company is based in Huddersfield and I wouldn't go there because no he's Not full of s*** but does know what he's talking about mostly but because he doesn't accept just how good ZX1 is. Simplez 

[nicnac]

6 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Blimey. I thought I'd post about a chat I had with a gearbox specialist of 35+ years. 

Oh the company is based in Huddersfield and I wouldn't go there because no he's Not full of s*** but does know what he's talking about mostly but because he doesn't accept just how good ZX1 is. Simplez 

is that snakeoil?

[Mr Vlad]

Snake oil? That's a medicinal type oil. ZX1 is a friction reducer. For example. A neighbour of mine has an old new shape jaguar S type 3.0. It stays still in his garage for 363 days of the year. Every time he started it the top end tappeted its nuts off till lubricated. Now it doesn't coz I recommend ZX1. He poured a bottle in and ran the car till operating temperature. 

Now whenever he starts his car No More Tappety Noise. 

ZX1 is a formulated oil that basically coats all metal with a micron thick coating that stays on the metal like a magnet.

All my cars for the past 30 years have had ZX1 and all those cars ran sweeeeeeet.

[m4rkw]

39 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And my car was driven exceptionally hard, often cruising for hours at the tops speed, I was often engine braking as well (which wears gearbox more)

 

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Automatic_Transmission_Fluid

"Toyota asserts that under normal usage, the fluid has a 160,000 km (100,000 miles) maintenance interval for inspection only; ATF-WS does not require any flushing or changing during the life of the vehicle; however, an inspection of the maintenance schedule of many Toyota vehicles reveals that there is a 100,000 km (60,000 miles) replacement interval if the vehicle is used on short trips, city driving, hauling heavy loads, trailer towing, or using a car-top hauler."

Your usage of cruising at highway speeds is more likely regarded as best possible operating conditions for a car rather than the most severe service. Toyota are in the business of selling you a new car and even they advise changing the fluid when the car is subject to severe usage patterns.

[Sundance]

47 minutes ago, nicnac said:

is that snakeoil?

... on and on it goes ... time for parachutes I think Nick! 😄

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, m4rkw said:

Your usage of cruising at highway speeds is more likely regarded as best possible operating conditions

Yes you would be right, if I would have been cruising at "highway speeds", but I was cruising specifically at 120-135MPH (indicated) for hours, like literally from getting full tank in one station, driving until fuel light comes-up, checking where next station is, refill and repeat. 

This specifically is one of the conditions (80%+ of max speed) which is defined by Toyota as severe condition.

Then... when back in UK my commute would be gridlocked road in London, so straight away another condition under based on Toyota definition is considered severe for shorter service-life. And on top of that I would be using engine braking and downshift, instead of using brakes like normal person...

Besides - it seems my suggested 100k miles interval is bang on Toyota service intervals is Wikipedia article is to be believed?! 😁

[nicnac]

Think Ill join a Wheely Bin Forum 

[Sundance]

23 minutes ago, nicnac said:

Think Ill join a Wheely Bin Forum 

When you do, send me the link ... 😉

[m4rkw]

34 minutes ago, nicnac said:

Think Ill join a Wheely Bin Forum 

I heard you need to change the fluid in the wheel bearings on those otherwise they can fail and then the council might refuse to take your rubbish because the bin doesn't move easily. Could even need a complete bin rebuild.