Lexus IS250 successor

[lexusisfan]

Dear All,

 

After owning my 2006 Lexus IS250 for nearly 7 years and after many faultless and enjoyable miles, I'm starting to think its now time for an upgrade.

I'm looking for something with a bit more space and ideally more economical as due to the pandemic, its unlikely that I will be doing a lot of motorway.

I have the following options on the table:

1) Lexus GS300h F Sport (2016 model)

2) BMW 530e M Sport (2017 model)

3) Mercedes E350e (2017 model)

 

What are your thoughts on the above and have you experienced driving the above models?

 

Many thanks

 

 

[rich1068]

I have no experience of any of them but if you plan on keeping your new car another 7 years it has to be the Lexus. But you knew that didn't you? 

[lexusisfan]

@rich1068

In terms of reliability, I know that I won't go wrong with another Lexus.

I've been driving Lexus for the last 13 years (owned a Lexus IS200 for approx 6 years prior to the IS250), so wondering whether I should go for a bit of a change or get my third Lexus.

[Linas.P]

If you just looking for more space/larger car then Lexus GS is certainly good idea. It is class above and has great built quality. Besides it will be cheapest from the cars you mentioned, and you can buy higher miles/older examples with piece of mind (that makes it much better value for money).

What are your other needs... you happy to live with 300h lacklustre performance? I assume engine sound and driving dynamics is not important?

One thing I would not as well - if you not planning to do a lot of miles, then why worry about economy at all?

I would say that if you looking to buy car for 7 years, then it should be Lexus... And if you planning to get Lexus GS, then go for 450h. It is still more economical than IS250 ~ kind off, but it has so much more power and so much nicer to drive, really effortless and luxurious. Besides - by being overall older model (Starting 2011-2012) overall it is cheaper than GS300h, because 300h came out later.

From my personal experience MB E class are very comfortable, well equipped and well built - certainly not as reliable as Lexus, but performance is decent. I cannot say anything particularly bad about BMW 530e either... importantly both are plug-in hybrids so you have benefit of driving them basically for free for up to 15-20 miles and if you get them before 2018 as you have mentioned - £20 road tax (maybe less). So that is certainly important consideration from cost of ownership perspective.

Obviously, Plug-in hybrids comes with their own caveats e.g. you should have somewhere to charge the car. But on flip side you will be able to park it free of charge in electric car parking spots and enter congestion charge are free.

In summary I think all of your choices are good, I would replace GS300h (2016) with GS450h (2011 - 2014) without doubt and other 2 options much more attractive in short term, but may not last 7 years.

[johnatg]

I replaced my 2006 IS250 (which I had for over 7 years) with a 2014 GS300h Premier. It is superb and so far (18 months) at least, faultless - it has perfectly adequate performance even if you don't get the kick in the back of a 450h. But its performance suits the car - its a relaxed cruiser. I get my kicks from my supercharged MX-5 (which is quicker than a GS450h).

A 300h is a bit less licence threatening than a 450h and if you get a  2016 one the road tax is only £20.

My wife is certainly not a car nut and just regards them as transport - but she often comments on how nice the GS300h is. I get about 42 mpg - much more economical than the IS250 (or the MX-5!)

[Mr Vlad]

Well said John and an eye opener personally speaking. Before I read your post 450h was top of my list lol. So Lexi have you not considered the RX450h? OK a little dearer but worth considering. Stay with Lexus and keep your name lol 👍

[Linas.P]

I guess the only reason for 300h... is that I was surprised to see 2016 FL 300h now going for under £15k. Sure higher mileage cars 90-114k miles, but that still means you won't even reach 200k in 7 years.

The nice thing about FL is that they get LED lights and F-Sports have nice dials like rest of the range. Pre-FL models dash looks a bit dated to be honest. Not sure if that swings me towards the lacklustre performance.

IS250 was right on the edge for me in terms of performance, just little slower and it would have been too slow (that is considering IS250 is realistically 7.5s to 60). GS300h is slower than IS300h, which is obviously slower than IS250. Obviously, each to their own but I never felt like 300h has enough power to make car accelerate effortlessly and feel luxurious. I would not mind to see 300h powered taxi picking me up from airport, but for driving it myself I don't like it. 

[Ala Larj]

I agree with johnatg. I also have a 2014 GS 300h premier and love it. Performance is more than adequate for my taste. It is after all a luxury cruiser not a sports car. In sport+ Mode there is more than enough acceleration for overtaking. It’s economical, I have averaged about 46 mpg over the 4 years I’ve owned it. Not had any faults on it either. Have used it for a few European touring holidays and never felt it inadequate and always feel refreshed after a long run. The seats are perfect for my aging back!  My wife also loves being a passenger too. In all our previous cars she always wanted to do a bit of driving because she got restless and had to keep adjusting her seat. In the GS she just loves a sleep!

[johnatg]

The way to get instant acceleration in the GS300h is to flick the down paddle a couple (or more) of times - engine revs instantly rise to the power band - much quicker than just putting your foot down (obviously you need to do that as well). Jolly useful when you come up behind someone you want to overtake and need to wait for an opportunity.

I find sport mode a bit jerky.

I rarely see the use of the paddles mentioned in regard to GS hybrids (except for a few marginally derogatory points)

[Mr Vlad]

When I was after getting my 1st Lexus the is300h was top of the list. Lexus Leeds where I went also had a new shape GS300h. I took that out for a longish test drive. Had grown up daughter, her son and fitted the baby seat too. That GS was ruddy impressive. Oh and it was rather quick as quick as the is300h I tested straight after with same passengers. I couldn't believe tho that daughter and her son preferred the is300h in the rear than the larger GS. I bought the is300h. The GS300h has a few more ponnies than the is300h and that's from Lexus. 

Oh. My passengers absolutely loved it in the back of the RX450h I got a couple years later. 

[Linas.P]

Or you just mash the pedal on GS450h with confidence and in complete luxury...

Especially if we go back to other options 530e and E350e - GS300h is not in the same ballpark and not even close. GS450h would be more comparable to the other two.

Vlad - GS300h and IS300h have absolutely identical drivetrains and engines, GS just slightly heavier. So no ponies to be found in GS.

[Ala Larj]

Sorry Linas but if you didn’t occasionally come up with some words of wisdom I’d think you were a troll! Not everyone wants to drive around like a lunatic and is happy to just cruise and enjoy the serenity and peaceful luxury of their chosen carriage. There is more to a car than ‘speed’. Objectively the 450h is ‘better’ on paper. However, subjectively the 300h suits many. You have the right to your opinion as do I. Neither of us is right or wrong. If you want a kick up the back leaving traffic lights then go for the 450h but if you want to have a lovely relaxing drive then the 300h is perfect. Horses for courses!

With respect to the other options my opinion is that the Lexus feels better inside which is my subjective opinion. I am also sure it will last longer. Whether the op wants something that will last or wants something for the short term the decision should be made on their subjectivity.

Both the others may indeed be faster, or better ‘on the limit’ but how many of us want that or have the opportunity to safely explore it?

 The best way to buy a car is to test drive it and see if it suits your requirements. Longevity is a different matter and well worth discussing with owners to see how vehicles last in the long run and are fit for ones purpose. 
 

[Linas.P]

Actually I agree with all of your point, we clearly have different opinion on how luxurious car should drive, but that is why opinions exists. Isn't it.

Secondly, I just pointing out that if we want to make "apple to apples" comparison, then 300h is not competitor for the other two - the 450h is. 300h is deliberately named confusingly to imply it is equivalent to 3L car which it isn't even when freefalling of the cliff. I just wanted to make sure this point came across correctly, because for many people just from first look at the established nomenclature it seems that BMW 530e = 3L and Lexus 300h = 3L... in practice BWM is 2L+Turbo+hybrid and it does deliver performance of ~3L, whereas Lexus does not.

If you like you can look into it this way - Lexus allows you to have half as powerful car for less... and indeed - if that is what satisfies you then fair enough.

Beside I pointed out as well that for lasting reliability Lexus is leader, BUT for free journeys up-to 15 mines and on power BMW/MB are better.

[Mr Vlad]

Actually Linas at the time I was buying my 1st Lexus it was Lexus blurb and a couple of road tests that stated there was a few more ponnies in the GS. In my test drives of both one after the other the GS actually felt quicker. I even stated to the sales guy that accompanied me. Thats my actual findings from actual test drives. 

[lexusisfan]

Dear All,

Many thanks for all your responses.

Its been very interesting to read your experiences with the GS model.

I've not had the opportunity to test drive the GS300h, but I did drive the IS300h and the performance was good enough for a normal drive and the occasional lively drive.

I do drive my IS250 like a nutter when the opportunity arises (got 3 points on my license), so performance is important for me. However in addition to  performance, I also value reliability, gadgets and comfort.

If I was looking for a car purely for performance, my list would have been either a Mercedes E43 AMG or BMW 540i.

In terms of keeping the car, both Lexus I had were intended to keep for 3 or 4 years and since they've aged very well without any major issues, I ended keeping them for longer. I'm a cash buyer and don't do finance or leases, so happy to keep cars until I feel like I need a change.

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I guess the only reason for 300h... is that I was surprised to see 2016 FL 300h now going for under £15k. Sure higher mileage cars 90-114k miles, but that still means you won't even reach 200k in 7 years

Whilst there are some GS300h under £15k, that is absolutely NOT the ONLY reason for my decision to go for a GS300h. The other models on my list are in the region of £20k and I have a max budget of £25k for the right car.

I'd like to go for a GS model 2016 onwards as I like the newer shape, and finding a GS450h with a spec that I like in the latest shape is like finding a needle in the haystack.

I guess that I've been spoilt by the reliability, comfort, gadgets and performance of the IS250 which I believe was way ahead of its time in 2006. Even on a 2017 BMW 5 series, you'll find that the reverse camera and other gadgets are considered extras.

I'm trying to arrange a test drive on a GS300h so that I can confirm whether its quicker than my wife's Yaris 1.3 vvt-i, but its proving difficult as dealers are not allowing test drives until all goes back to normal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

Then there is GS250... some can be had for very attractive prices... faster than 300h and certainly more reliable. There is simply nothing to go wrong on that car. Obviously, you won't get any fuel economy improvements and I don't believe they were available in 2016, so no facelift. 

Besides reverse camera was and still is considered extra in IS. In mk3 sub forum there is thread about guy who just bought 2020 IS300h without electric seats keyless entry, folding mirrors or reverse camera. But admittedly on Lexus that is rare. Where on BMW and MB - "poverty line spec" is popular.

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Actually Linas at the time I was buying my 1st Lexus it was Lexus blurb and a couple of road tests that stated there was a few more ponnies in the GS. In my test drives of both one after the other the GS actually felt quicker. I even stated to the sales guy that accompanied me. Thats my actual findings from actual test drives. 

Identical power from the engine and hybrid system, geared the same way too. Under all metrics the IS300h is faster than the GS300h, it has around 100 Kg less weight to haul around. Lexus actually quote a 0.8 sec 0-62 mph difference but I don't actually believe the difference is that great.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

I don't believe they were available in 2016, so no facelift.

No, the 200t took over but was never available in the UK.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Then there is GS250... some can be had for very attractive prices

Big saloon vehicles don't hold their value well, and the GS certainly never has, but the 250 is the worst of the lot and therefore can be picked up for a good price - but the depreciation will continue. Depending on how many miles you do the fuel economy could be a factor, and the road tax is > £300 a year over the 300h.

[Linas.P]

Yes, road tax kind of cements GS250 fate. As much as I don't like 300h, but 2013 IS250 was already too old, because it received no improvements since 2005. GS250 is even worse from the perspective it is heavier. Still I feel there is less to go wrong with GS250 compared to 300h and V6 sounds is massive improvement over 300h, but even I agree that paying £300 more for that doesn't make sense in car like GS (not meant to be sports car).

[chr15gb]

Anyone know how the bootspace on the 2012-2018 GS450H compares to my 2008 IS250?

I've been looking for an upgrade but on a lockdown impulse, I bought myself an electric bike.
The bike folds in half but to get in the boot of my IS250, I have to remove the saddle and lift out the handlebars to fold them over.
With that done it "ONLY" just fits, a bit of wiggling and juggling when closing the boot.

I can see the boot volume is larger on the GS450H but not how deep it is to the rear seat.
I think if it is even an inch shallower than the IS250 it may be a deal breaker. A 528i is on my list and a Jag XF.

I'm not at all keen on brackets, frames and roofracks ruining the look of the car.

[Linas.P]

The boot will be bigger in all dimensions compared to IS250. However, in IS250 you can remove the tray and spare wheel to make it deeper, in GS450h you can't.

When it comes to fitting bicycles I found that folding seats makes all the difference. For example I could not fit any bikes in IS250, but I can fit them in much smaller RC200t. GS does not have folding seats so I would not expect fitting much, but if your bike fits IS250 without removing tray/spare wheel, then it will fit GS450h.

I am just wondering why Lexus never did hackbacks (like Kia Stinger, Mazda 6, Mondeo... even 4 door A5)... that would make loading/unloading and overall usability of the boot so much better without affecting car looks or anything else.  I always thought that this is free usability, same as folding rear seats.

[Ala Larj]

57 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

The boot will be bigger in all dimensions compared to IS250. However, in IS250 you can remove the tray and spare wheel to make it deeper, in GS450h you can't.

When it comes to fitting bicycles I found that folding seats makes all the difference. For example I could not fit any bikes in IS250, but I can fit them in much smaller RC200t. GS does not have folding seats so I would not expect fitting much, but if your bike fits IS250 without removing tray/spare wheel, then it will fit GS450h.

I am just wondering why Lexus never did hackbacks (like Kia Stinger, Mazda 6, Mondeo... even 4 door A5)... that would make loading/unloading and overall usability of the boot so much better without affecting car looks or anything else.  I always thought that this is free usability, same as folding rear seats.

I’d have loved a GS estate!

[Linas.P]

No - estate is already compromise on looks... you can like it or hate it. But it is possible to make identical car without changing anything or compromising anything i.e. where boot lifts together with rear window and instead of hard partition you only have fabric cover separating boot from interior + folding seats.

Well I guess, maybe that partition makes rear end of the car more rigid?! But even then there could be like brace between 2 shock towers without taking much away from practicality. 

[Mr Vlad]

Chris re fitting your fold up bike in to the boot of a GS450h. I doubt it very very much. Yes the volume might be bigger But it's the dimensions that are critical in your situation. Just look at pictures of open boots of the GS hybrid Yes wider but not as deep from seat back to back of the boot. RX on the other hand you'll get 3 or more in lol.