IS250 and the E10 petrol exclusion list

[Sundance]

There seems to be a fuel theme on forums ATM, rightly so I guess as the higher ethanol based petrol option is arriving here in the Autumn, but I have one query for you leading Lexus lights out there.

Given the list of excluded Lexus engines (and I quote) ...

"E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Lexus European petrol models made from Jan 1998, excluding:

• IS250 2.5 litre V6 with engine 4GR-FSE made between Aug 2005 and Sep 2007

• GS300 3.0 litre V6 with engine 3GR-FSE made between Jan 2005 and Sep 2007

• LS460 4.6 litre V8 with engine 1UR-FSE made between Aug 2006 and Sep 2007."

So, my query is ... whilst my IS250 engine number starts '4GR' it does not include the letters '-FSE' hence I'm trying to establish the '-FSE' relevance so that I know whether or not my car is excluded from using E10, without the necessity for additives that is.

[Linas.P]

Your engine is 4GR-FSE... they all are in all 250s anywhere in the world. FSE means - Economy narrow-angle valve DOHC, Swirl intake, Electronic Fuel injection (yes absolutely logical I know ...):

https://parts.olathetoyota.com/toyota-engine-codes#:~:text=The coding system works simply,dash%2C lists the engine's features.

Now in terms of E10, E25... and even E85 -  I have run IS250 extensively on all of them. In a lot of European countries E85 is quite common, sometimes the only fuel available. I cannot claim it does not damage the engine, never checked, never had issues, but car consumes more of it. Not 40% as you would expect from pure ethanol, but E85 is probably ~10%. 

Apart of that no noticeable difference, although I assume car was slightly down on power as after filling full tank of ethanol in Germany I could only reach 127MPH 😞

[johnatg]

As far as I know, all IS250s have the 4GR-FSE engine. Mine was described as a 2006 - first registered in late March 2006. But it was made in Sept 2005.

You can deduce when your car was manufactured by careful scrutiny of multitudinous plastic parts on the car - most have a date stamp. So do some metal parts but not many. There is often a substantial gap - can be 6-9 months or even longer - between manufacture and first reg in UK. It takes 6 weeks on the ship and who knows how long in a UK storage yard and then a dealer showroom or lot.

Whatever, Rowley - your particular car is in the exclusion list as it will definitely have been made before Sept 2007. Additives (fuel treatments - especially those designed to remove water from the fuel) will reduce corrosion in the fuel system - ethanol is hygroscopic and the water which it extracts from the air can cause corrosion in the fuel system. It's a slow process though and you may well not notice any side effects during your ownership of the car

Lexus dealers will be able to give advice - it may be that they can fit parts to replace those which might suffer - might be expensive though.

[Linas.P]

That is good point regarding corrosion. As I said - I used fuel with ethanol extensively and I am sure many IS250s in Europe drive on this fuel all the time (and worse - like E85). However, I never kept that fuel in the tank for prolonger period of the time - I would say at most the tank lasted for 2 weeks at the time I had IS250. Perhaps if you not driving much, then indeed - keeping ethanol in the tank is probably not good idea.

[Mr Vlad]

From what I've just googled and specifically for the UK is that E10 is a direct replacement of 91 grade petrol. 91 is the standard unleaded. So I'm assuming then that the super unleaded petrol like 95 and 98 Ron contain less ethanol. Also I read that to use E10 engine upgrades like a higher compression. Errrrr our is250's Are a high compression already so how come our cars are on the exclusion list? Doesn't make sense to me. No matter what I'll still use Millers fuel additive. Seems a fuss over nothing really. Just some dogooders not doing good after all. Scare mongering etc.

[Sundance]

Thanks all, especially LINAS for answering and explaining my lettering query.

I currently alternative between low & high octane tank fills anyway, but I'm thinking it might be best to stick with 98 (E5 - 5% ethanol) rather than the much lower 91 (E10 - 10% ethanol) come the Autumn.

Certainly if E5 becomes less available or significantly more expensive over time then I'm thinking Dynolite (Octane Boost) may be the answer to protect from the consequences of high ethanol in my 'excluded' engine.

My own research came up with this which I found interesting ...

https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/moss-blog-e10-petrol

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Mr Vlad said:

From what I've just googled and specifically for the UK is that E10 is a direct replacement of 91 grade petrol. 91 is the standard unleaded.

Not sure about that. Standard Unleaded is 95, premium is anything above that 97-99 (or 100), 91-92 is quite difficult to find in UK. Besides ethanol has Octane (RON) of 120-135, it could even be used as octane booster, so it is quite unlikely that ethanol mix with petrol could reduce the RON of fuel.

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, Sundance said:

I currently alternative between low & high octane tank fills anyway, but I'm thinking it might be best to stick with 98 (E5 - 5% ethanol) rather than the much lower 91 (E10 - 10% ethanol) come the Autumn.

There will be no 91 in the UK. The octane rating isn't changing from 95 for what we now consider standard grade fuel.

 

The IS250 until 2008 is incompatible with E10 because the fuel pumps are made of an aluminium grade that will corrode with E10 fuel. Different pumps were used from 2008.

[Sundance]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

There will be no 91 in the UK. The octane rating isn't changing from 95 for what we now consider standard grade fuel.

The IS250 until 2008 is incompatible with E10 because the fuel pumps are made of an aluminium grade that will corrode with E10 fuel. Different pumps were used from 2008.

Yeah, my mistake, I read 95 and for some reason typed 91 🙄 .  I also read, in fact it's in that Moss 'blog' link I provided, that as well as potentially corroding fuel tanks, lines, pumps and carbs the high level of ethanol in E10 can also degrade gaskets, rubber seals, plastics and hoses. Scary ... 😳 !

BTW I'm not saying that this is the case with my SE-L but if it were as simple as changing the fuel pump with no other potential danger areas then it would be much more straight forward and a problem much easier to solve.

Maybe some comms with Lexus might enlighten me in more detail.

[Linas.P]

IS250 fuel pump is not cheap matter... 

[ColinBarber]

34 minutes ago, Sundance said:

BTW I'm not saying that this is the case with my SE-L but if it were as simple as changing the fuel pump with no other potential danger areas then it would be much more straight forward and a problem much easier to solve.

Maybe some comms with Lexus might enlighten me in more detail.

Possibly the rails too, although the injectors themselves seem the same.

If you purchased new pumps and rails from Lexus, you would be spending more money than the vehicle is worth.

[Mr Vlad]

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/104126/official-e10-petrol-launches-september

Just read this so it looks like us is250 drivers will be using super unleaded from September. I'm good with that.

[Sundance]

1 hour ago, Mr Vlad said:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/104126/official-e10-petrol-launches-september

Just read this so it looks like us is250 drivers will be using super unleaded from September. I'm good with that.

Except that AutoExpress article has a paragraph in it that makes no sense to me ...

"The DfT has not yet set a deadline for when UK petrol stations will be required to offer E10. It will not be offered alongside E5 unleaded at the same forecourt, though - once a fuel station has switched to E10, standard E5 will no longer be available there. Motorists whose cars aren’t compatible with E10 will still be able to purchase E5 petrol in super-unleaded form, though, with the DfT confirming the UK will maintain a supply of this fuel."

The implication being that there will be special forecourts for E5 fuel ... really? 🤔

 

EDIT : I've re-read the entire paragraph, it's not very clear, but later makes mention of E5 petrol in super-unleaded form but doesn't say that it will be available alongside E10 ... maybe one is left to assume this will be the case. 🙂

[NemesisUK]

27 minutes ago, Sundance said:

The implication being that there will be special forecourts for E5 fuel ... really? 🤔

No, if E10 fuel is sold then the forecourt will only supply E5  in super-unleaded fuels such as V-Power, Momentum etc.. 

 

[johnatg]

Lots of petrol stations, especially in rural areas, only sell 95. So eventually no E5 there. 

[65mike]

Hi all

I have checked my Lexus handbook and they mention that you can use 95 or 98 ron fuel with no problems i have also contacted the dealer regarding the E10 fuel thing and am waiting a reply would have sooner spoke to Lexus uk but this was not a option.

My Is250 is a June 2009 car so hopefully ok but if they say it’s on the edge will use super unleaded don’t like the extra cost but will see what they say and report back when i know more.

65mike

[Sundance]

26 minutes ago, 65mike said:

Hi all

I have checked my Lexus handbook and they mention that you can use 95 or 98 ron fuel with no problems i have also contacted the dealer regarding the E10 fuel thing and am waiting a reply would have sooner spoke to Lexus uk but this was not a option.

My Is250 is a June 2009 car so hopefully ok but if they say it’s on the edge will use super unleaded don’t like the extra cost but will see what they say and report back when i know more.

65mike

Your '09 model should be fine with E10 according to my original post ... and there has never been a question over 95 and 98 octane which it's agreed are both suitable ... but it will still be interesting to see what your dealer says, especially if it's contrary to this. 😉

[65mike]

Hi all

Well let’s hope so will see what dealer says that should sort it out once and for all then.

65mike

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, 65mike said:

Hi all

Well let’s hope so will see what dealer says that should sort it out once and for all then.

65mike

What are you expecting them to say that isn't already documented? The Government's database available on web obtains its information from the manufacturers.

All Lexus models are compatible with E10 fuel that were manufactured from Jan 1998 with three exceptions.

• IS250 2.5 litre V6 with engine 4GR-FSE made between August 2005 and September 2007. 
• GS300 3.0 litre V6 with engine 3GR-FSE made between January 2005 and September 2007. 
• LS460 4.6 litre V8 with engine 1UR-FSE made between August 2006 and September 2007.

If you know your vehicle was manufactured October 2007 onwards then you can use E10 fuel. If before then you must not use E10 and stick with E5, either 95 RON  whilst it remains available in your area or 98/99 RON.

You can also find the following FAQ on Toyota's European website.

https://www.toyota-europe.com/download/cms/euen/Can I use biofuel in my car_tcm-11-577377.pdf

 

[65mike]

I will answer your question in order you wrote them.

I was unaware of the change of fuel until i read it here and i trust what the manufacturer says rather than items on a government website especially on cars.

Thanks for the link it is useful.

I like to here things from the horses mouth as they say that is why i contacted the dealer.

A lot off forum members have been very helpful in the past just a bit surprised at your reply.

I do not live on the forum only pop by acasonally.

65mike

[Sundance]

I tend to agree with you Michael, I found Colin's response unnecessarily snappy too, not quite what I would expect from a Moderator ... but hey, each to his own. 🤷‍♂️

[Linas.P]

24 minutes ago, Sundance said:

I tend to agree with you Michael, I found Colin's response unnecessarily snappy too, not quite what I would expect from a Moderator ... but hey, each to his own. 🤷‍♂️

I tend to prefer facts over the nice messages, and whereas I agree Colin sometimes make quite "snappy" responses I must agree he is almost always factually right. Cannot argue with that!

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, 65mike said:

A lot off forum members have been very helpful in the past just a bit surprised at your reply.

Apologies, I didn't mean offence. It was a genuine question given that members had taken the time and effort to provide all the information required to understand if a vehicle can use E10 or not.

Having received poor information from dealers and head office on a number of occasions, they certain aren't my source of finding a definitive answer.

[Mr Vlad]

Colin in no way whatsoever was you offensive. Factual YES. In this thread there has been some stupid questions and replies/interpretations.

Sundance your 1st post asked a question which not only have you answered yourself but it's been answered numerous times.

Oh as for additives against the negative effects of E10. I've emailed Millers Oils to get information about their additives and their use against the negative effects of ethanol in petrol. The brand you stated states in their blurb but it needs confirming.

Personally I'm not looking forward to being forced to use super unleaded but hey ho that's life.

[Linas.P]

If Colin didn't upset them, then you certainly will 😁

I would gladly drive IS250 on ethanol... it even have some additional cleaning properties and higher RON. Sadly, we will have to pay for it like for "proper" fuel despite it being less efficient.

The only thing I advice - don't leave it sitting in your tank for long periods of time.