Why is Toyota pushing Hydrogen powered cars so aggressively

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Slucky said:

That is a great article John. 

Lithium mining is causing as much damage to the environment as other fossil fuels, but because they are helping to drive down emissions, the mining companies have EU environmental policy on their side.

 

Good of you to read it so quickly Lucky.Thanks.

[Zotto]

LPG is a different matter. No need of high pressure tanks, while H2 require 300 or also 600 atm..  Besides, LPG is just a minimal part from petrol , while H2 can be produced by any energy source (actually it's only a energy vector), and totally ecological, burning it and producing water.

Another point is the need only of a little Battery, and this means no extra weight, that is already a problem for cars, but absolutely a no way for big vehicles like boats, trains, airplanes. Probably in future years Battery EV cars will be used for city short trips and nightly recharging, but H" will be more and more important.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

I guess - it was about the same when Toyota decided to focus on HCEVs, but it seems to be true at the moment.

This is just kind of sad that as always instead of "better" technology we have chosen the one which was marketed better and more readily available. Yet it could still come back to bite us in the *** when few decades ago we will realise that we made irreversible damage by digging all lithium up.

I am just hoping HCEVs will survive on the customer base in certain countries where hydrogen supply is better. Obviously, Toyota directly funding hydrogen infrastructure would be massive help for keeping it alive.

It may take hold in Japan and South Korea ?

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

It may take hold in Japan and South Korea ?

I hope so, other countries with reasonable infrastructure are France, Norway.. Germany is not bad. I generally think smaller countries are more likely to use it - so like Scandinavians probably. Singapore, Hongkong, perhaps Switzerland (although focus there are BEV point for the time being).

Overall, it seems HCEVs have lost worldwide battle for primary EV technology, but they can still focus on certain nations and selectively support infrastructure there. Besides it seems for HCEV the time was an issue - BEV technology was more readily available and beat them to the market with exciting offering. If HCEV can survive this decade without going into complete obscurity and becoming irrelevant I think they have long term future. Especially, when ICE bans get's into place, when people finally going to realise that charging BEVs at home infrastructure is not achievable but yet they needs the cars HCEV alternative may become attractive again. 

[Herbie]

1 hour ago, Slucky said:

Personally hydrogen vehicles remind me of LPG vehicles.

And that's not a bad thing.

Prior to getting this hybrid I ran LPG for more than 15 years and loved it. No loss of performance or anything but cleaner, better for the environment, better for the engine and definitely better for the wallet

[Slucky]

Thank you all for your views and comments of this topic, it has been most engaging.

@Linas.P@Steve@Malc@Herbie@royoftherovers@matt8@Zotto

 

To conclude:

Cost has always been a drag on fuel cells. The refuelling infrastructure, safety issues and production, even if these issues were all suddenly ironed out, hydrogen lost to lithium ion a long time ago as an automotive fuel.

Despite years of promise and a few attempts at production models, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles haven’t managed to capture the imagination of car buyers.

The amount that has been committed to the lithium ion supply chain, excluding charging infrastructure, is around $600 billion. Hydrogen is $40bn max (analyst figures).
It’s a completely different scale. In many respects, lithium ion is too big to fail over the next 10- to 15-year period.

Fuel cell vehicles have a huge potential, but not for the next two decades, by then the EV technology would have a huge advancement.

Toyota is convinced hydrogen has a place in the future of cars, However, the lack of infrastructure, support, demand to support fuel cell vehicles remains a monumental challenge. How long they will keep this project going, remains to be seen. The world is changing at a ever growing pace, and innovation needs to keep up the pace, otherwise it loses to newer technology.

From where I see it.

In the end, Hydrogen vehicles might be the technology of the future, but future of hydrogen would benefit commercial fleets more.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Slucky said:

Thank you all for your views and comments of this topic, it has been most engaging.

@Linas.P@Steve@Malc@Herbie@royoftherovers@matt8@Zotto

 

To conclude:

Cost has always been a drag on fuel cells. The refuelling infrastructure, safety issues and production, even if these issues were all suddenly ironed out, hydrogen lost to lithium ion a long time ago as an automotive fuel.

Despite years of promise and a few attempts at production models, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles haven’t managed to capture the imagination of car buyers.

The amount that has been committed to the lithium ion supply chain, excluding charging infrastructure, is around $600 billion. Hydrogen is $40bn max (analyst figures).
It’s a completely different scale. In many respects, lithium ion is too big to fail over the next 10- to 15-year period.

Fuel cell vehicles have a huge potential, but not for the next two decades, by then the EV technology would have a huge advancement.

Toyota is convinced hydrogen has a place in the future of cars, However, the lack of infrastructure, support, demand to support fuel cell vehicles remains a monumental challenge. How long they will keep this project going, remains to be seen. The world is changing at a ever growing pace, and innovation needs to keep up the pace, otherwise it loses to newer technology.

From where I see it.

In the end, Hydrogen vehicles might be the technology of the future, but future of hydrogen would benefit commercial fleets more.

So, are we passed,or are we approaching the Betamax/ VHS crossroads, Lucky ?

[Malc]

18 hours ago, Slucky said:

Which company is going to install hydrogen stations

I fully expect BP, Shell, Exxon etc to install the required technology over a sensible timeframe, especially as they are all going " green " and maybe oil free conceptually !

I was reading that BP is trying to increase it's fuel re-filling estate globally to accommodate this sort of thing

Malc

[Malc]

1 hour ago, Slucky said:

In the end, Hydrogen vehicles might be the technology of the future, but future of hydrogen would benefit commercial fleets more.

and I think, I'm sure, I read somewhere recently that Belgium is committing to ALL HGVs being Hydrogen fuelled across the nation

Malc

[wharfhouse]

Or maybe: https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/industry-news/opinion-synthetic-fuels-prove-electric-cars-arent-only-option

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

I fully expect BP, Shell, Exxon etc to install the required technology over a sensible timeframe, especially as they are all going " green " and maybe oil free conceptually !

I was reading that BP is trying to increase it's fuel re-filling estate globally to accommodate this sort of thing

Malc

I was told more than 15 years ago that BP now (in 2005) stood for Beyond Petroleum !

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Malc said:

I fully expect BP, Shell, Exxon etc to install the required technology over a sensible timeframe, especially as they are all going " green " and maybe oil free conceptually !

I was reading that BP is trying to increase it's fuel re-filling estate globally to accommodate this sort of thing

Malc

Yes they did - they invested their dirty oil money into various aspects related to BEV because government matched it 1:1 if not 2:1... now they have no interest in hydrogen, they secured their profits for another 30-50 years and eventually we going to have same discussion "how oil companies where hampering Battery tech" vs "how Battery companies are hampering hydrogen tech".

Problem is that without proper long term vision and strategy from the governments or extra-governmental powers like EU, business will always do what is best for their investors... they will never care about such inspirational goals like long term environmental protection. Yes they will do a bit, just enough to avoid sanctions today. And I am not any sort of socialist, who believes that we should have "5 year plans". Business have a right to be profitable and should be free to do what is needed to be competitive and progressive. But global problems which are very complex, requires decades to figure out, multiple governments to agree etc. should be set in clear directives and enforced by governments.

Simply saying we need to be "carbon neutral" is not good enough... sure we will be carbon neutral, but at the same time maybe we will pollute all the water on the planet with cadmium, lead or some other crap. Is that really good solution? Obviously not... and therefore we should not jump every time when somebody offers solution with lower carbon without considering whole impact and every aspect. Just recently it happened with diesel... somehow for last 3 years diesel is not lowed so much... do you remember how it sounded in 2010?! According to government that was perfect solution for all issues and if not for diesel gate they would be offering diesel therapies for covid 😁

Who is to blame? Government and their policy - they had goal to reduce the CO2 at any price to look good on reports, business offered them what they asked... just small caveat CO2 was lower, all the rest of pollution was higher. And it wasn't like government didn't know, maybe not initially but diesel fuel was supported years after it was clear that it has more side effects then it makes good. I just see this pattern repeating again...

 

[Las Palmas]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:21 PM, Slucky said:

Having first heard about Toyota looking into hydrogen powered cars, I thought this technology was not viable, due to the safety and the infrastructure. 

I understand they have put a lot of money behind fuel cell technology and the CEO even laughed at Tesla few years ago.

Now they have just launched a second generation Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car. Links here and here.

The Mirai is on the UK Site - here

Why are they not embracing the EV tech as much as the other car manufacturers. 

This I cannot understand, love to hear your comments.

If gasoline powered cars were to be permitted today, they would probably have a big problem to allow such a dangerous and flammable stuff as gasoline in a moving vehicle with so many electric components that can light the fuel in an accident.

Had I been wealthy enough I would not consider any other existing fuel type for our family car than hydrogen when refuelling become easy.

[Las Palmas]

On 12/9/2020 at 4:56 PM, Linas.P said:

Sadly, it is the same case for "renewable energy" as well - solar panels contains large amounts of heavy metals and are not recyclable. Wind turbines are made from composites which are not recyclable etc. As always our governments is looking into sole indicator of pollution like CO2 or NOx... without properly understanding whole picture.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills

This is very similar to what happened to the diesel in last decade - because it was lower CO2 all countries suddenly incentivised it over petrol... as it turns out despite producing less CO2 it produces much more pollutants overall. And this is the same story across the board when it comes to environmental policies. 

Politicians do what they do best: try to convince as many as possible that they should be re-elected and thus are never trying to inform (or understand) what they are proposing / recommending.

[Las Palmas]

On 12/9/2020 at 6:03 PM, matt8 said:

 I'd give hydrogen a go if I had the means to fill up nearby.

100%

[Las Palmas]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:08 AM, Slucky said:

Fuel cell vehicles have a huge potential, but not for the next two decades, by then the EV technology would have a huge advancement.

Lack of intelligent rulers in the countries that have the money to invest in it.

Fault is completely ours. We need to elect some with brains.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Lack of intelligent rulers in the countries that have the money to invest in it.

Fault is completely ours. We need to elect some with brains.

.... but going to your previous point (politicians are basically liars and populists) and adding on top that in any country majority people will be ignorant it seems it won't happen at any time soon. Perhaps we need to look in way of replacing "semi-elective semi-democracy" into meritocracy. I am sure that would not be very popular as it means "leaders" like Boris the empty scull and Farage the lying drunk won't get a chance... as frankly they have no merit in anything.

P.S. and this is how car forum turns into political movement 😁