Alternatives to Lexus RC200t/300h

[Rabbers]

Before replacing my 2016 RC300h F-Sport with the 2019 model, I looked at the Mercedes C-class coupé and the Audi A5, test-driving the 200 EQ Sport

and 40 TDI Quattro versions respectively.  I fancied an E-class coupé more but the optionals took it well out of my price range.  I did not consider BMW

because the present cabin design is too austere for my taste.  

 

Frankly, I knew from the outset that I was unlikely to switch from Lexus.  I was happy with the RC, and the longstanding good relationship with my dealer

meant that negotiations for a new car would be quick, painless and satisfactory.   While kidding myself that I was keeping an open mind about maybe

buying one of their cars, my sniffing around Mercedes and Audi dealers was therefore really based on simple curiosity as to whether their grass might

not be greener before I finally committed myself to a seventh consecutive Lexus.  Of course, Lexus' subsequent range reduction means that my loyalty

will not be as strong when I next come to think about a new car, probably in two years or so:   the LC is outside my price range, I don't want an SUV,

and I can't see myself being in the market for a largish family sedan like the ES (whose design I also find a bit naff in an Infiniti-ish sort of way).

 

For what they are worth, my thoughts on the Mercedes and Audi coupés were the following.   Both cars are highly pleasing in terms of aesthetics, build

and materials quality and finish, inside and out, especially the A5, and although numbers on the road are too high for exclusivity, they are nevertheless

each capable, as befits a coupé, of inspiring pride of ownership.  Both are responsive, easy to drive, suited to everyday use in town or country and, no

doubt, capable of long, fast and safe motorway runs.  Leaving aside comparisons between declared top speeds and 0-100kmh figures, which in today's

road and traffic conditions are not easily reproduced and are therefore of largely academic interest, I found no immediate differences in responsiveness

and general driveability that LED me to prefer either car to the 2016 RC, and I have since come to think that the 2019 RC, which I had not yet driven at

the time, is probably more stable, corners better, and is more agile.  Nor could I imagine that the others perform better on long motorway drives, for

which the RC is superb.  Also, having become accustomed to the perfect seamlessness of e-CVT, I did not particularly like the Audi or Mercedes boxes

despite their undoubted excellence.

 

[royoftherovers]

I found that an enjoyable read Renato. Thank you.

[lockhart leitch]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:33 AM, Linas.P said:

That is fair enough I guess... Although criteria is not made for 200t to win, but rather on realistic and practical considerations - like reliability, convenience/technology, comfort etc.

The criteria is there to make choices comparable and reasonable - because without it... then it could be any car. Somebody could come and say "what about £250k Aston Martin DB4? amazing car!" indeed it is, but not a realistic alternative to RC200t.

Would Nissan Z370 meet the criteria - yes it probably would... but I am not boy racer and I don't want nasty looking basic interior and I would rather keep my teeth when going over bumps. 

Same for Jaguar - it is outdated EOL car, which is very unreliable, when I need to go somewhere I don't want to do it in courtesy Toyota Aygo.. It just isn't dependable car.

Mustang comes close - but no close enough. You can get 2.3L eco-boost for ~£25k. So too expensive and not really an improvement, never-mind atrocious build quality.

Dodge - that is non-starter, not sold in UK... I mean if you don't find this criteria "reasonable".. then I don't know what you would.

Regarding the 370z ,if you buy a GT Edition model it's not your teeth you need to worry about it's your ears.Suspension is well sorted and the car goes great but on some road surfaces tyre roar is deafening.I had one for a couple of years but went back to 350z as it was much quieter.Both would leave the RC for dead but it's horses for courses.If i was buying german i would need a warranty !

[H3XME]

On 11/6/2020 at 2:35 PM, Linas.P said:

I don't believe RC-F will cost under £25k in 6-12 months... or even in 3 years time.

Now's your time 🤣

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310132944563

The prices aren't dropping as much as the mileage is rising unfortunately.

[Linas.P]

51 minutes ago, H3XME said:

Now's your time 🤣

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310132944563

The prices aren't dropping as much as the mileage is rising unfortunately.

You see I was technically right - it won't be un £25k in 3 years time... I was right - it took 4 years. 

I was eyeing RC-Fs for a while and I know the yare amazing value at £21k. I definitely would never take red one (or any red car except of Ferrari). 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401105414712

I definitely see above as good value, but for me... I am kind of sucker for "completionism" i.e. it is just basically standard car without a single option. No RCC, no sunroof, no TVD... and for me at least RCC and sunroof are deal breakers, I can live without TVD with just normal LSD, but I would take TVD if its there.

But indeed you are right - values does not fall as they used to... when IS-F was 10 years old it was dipping it's toes into sub-10k... not even 10 years old, it was in 2016 when it reached it absolute bottom and I remember to this day there being beautiful 2009 IS-F with 101k miles for £9,800, I was considering it and week later it was gone, later I have seen it popping-up with 168k and for £14.5k! Even £21k is still a lot of money for 9 years old car that will run out of warranty next year. 

[H3XME]

26 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401105414712

I definitely see above as good value, but for me... I am kind of sucker for "completionism" i.e. it is just basically standard car without a single option. No RCC, no sunroof, no TVD... and for me at least RCC and sunroof are deal breakers, I can live without TVD with just normal LSD, but I would take TVD if its there.

For £21k, and still under warranty technically, it's a not an awful deal for today's climate despite the mileage, but it is reaching the age/mileage where you need to start thinking about water pump, alternator etc. "Problem" with these lexus/toyota cars is that even though some are old, high mileage & rough around the edges, they still drive and will continue driving. That's why the prices won't go down as much as other cars.. There's nothing much to choose from these days (New cars), so if you want a well built toy, you'll be looking for used cars with proper engines like those.

I don't mind not having those options. It's got M&L and that's enough for me. Radar Cruise is effing annoying, not because it's a bad system, but because even on the shortest distance there's a gap big enough for some c#nt to comfortably get in and your car then keeps slowing down and speeding up resulting in ***** mpgs. I understand the system can't be turned down any more due to safe braking distances, so this is a fault of those who don't keep those distances.

As for the diff, I'd take a regular torsen (mechanical) LSD over electric one. Arguably not as good, but less to go wrong when you're looking at 10 year old cars. Applies to many other luxuries.

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, H3XME said:

For £21k, and still under warranty technically, it's a not an awful deal for today's climate despite the mileage

Indeed as I said - it is GOOD deal, just maybe not as good as I would like 🙂 

3 minutes ago, H3XME said:

I don't mind not having those options. It's got M&L and that's enough for me. Radar Cruise is effing annoying, not because it's a bad system, but because even on the shortest distance there's a gap big enough for some c#nt to comfortable get in and your car then keeps slowing down and speeding up resulting in ***** mpgs.

As for the diff, I'd take a regular torsen (mechanical) LSD over electric one. Arguably not as good, but less to go wrong when you're looking at 10 year old cars. Applies to many other luxuries.

The sunroof is absolute must for me, I know other people hate them, but for me it is basically most important thing in the car. Especially RC which is kind of crammed and sun roof really gives feeling of extra space. I knows it sounds counter intuitive "car is crammed, so I want sunroof which takes extra 1.5cm of the head space". But headroom in front is not really an issue (I am ~6.1/186), maybe it would be an issue with helmet, but I am not looking to track the car anyway and if helmet does not fit then 1.5 cm probably not going to make that much difference anyway.

Radar Cruise is definitely nice to have, I agree in UK it is pain with horrible lane discipline, but I definitely expect to have this in GT car... but yes you can't use it in heavy traffic.

As for TVD - a yes I agree, LSD is actually more fun, but worse for lap times, but again outside of the track LSD is both, lighter, better on fuel, more fun and totally sufficient. So TVD is not dealbreaker, sunroof is, RCC... well I guess I probably would buy car without one and then I would hate myself for doing it. 

 

[andrey77]

lot of alternative seems to be coz I can not sell my RC300h for a year by  now even priced cheap. some people look at it two days ago and went to bmw 3 series coz it much bigger for the passengers.

[GMB]

Interesting discussion. Just for the record; in my experience the 200t is cheaper to run then the F.  27mpg ( not good ) compared to 23mpg from the F, road tax a lot cheaper than the £800 for the F. Insurance a bit less. Lexus servicing about 30% cheaper.  The F does everything in style but the 200t does it in an interesting very odd fashion.  "You pays yer money and makes yer choice"

BTW The 200t only exists for me to protect the F from English weather and salt. It's still good fun to drive - honest!

[H3XME]

14 hours ago, andrey77 said:

lot of alternative seems to be coz I can not sell my RC300h for a year by  now even priced cheap. some people look at it two days ago and went to bmw 3 series coz it much bigger for the passengers.

I was looking at RC300h recently as my daily driver, but even with prices being reasonable now, the insurance companies give you the "middle finger" because it's a newer lexus and thefts are a big problem... Just for comparison, the cheapest quote I had was £1700/year for a facelift 300h F-Sport. My IS250 or even IS350 is £500/year.. it's absolutely ridiculous. I'd never think I'd be priced out of a car by the insurance at nearly 30 years old.

[Linas.P]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:43 PM, andrey77 said:

lot of alternative seems to be coz I can not sell my RC300h for a year by  now even priced cheap. some people look at it two days ago and went to bmw 3 series coz it much bigger for the passengers.

But big part of that is that yours have category if memory serves. So RC is already rare car which is difficult to sell and declared write-off makes that nearly impossible. Flipping crashed Lexus never worked and will never work. I just seen guy selling low miles, top spec. part facelift car for £16,000... and I know that car sold at copart crashed for £14,000 + fees... so he paid probably £16,000 for the car with fees, fixed it (minor damage if memory serves, but still probably £3000) and now selling it at loss. And this has been the case since beginning of the times with Lexus.

The rear passenger legroom is indeed horrible in RC, not so much better in 4-series (one really need to go for 6/8-series to get some space for rear passengers), but people who buy 2-dour coupes do not care about rear passengers, so I kind of doubt that is really the key issue.

Also prices for used cars are ridiculous anyway... I know this quite a few years back, but I paid £4000 for 2008 IS250 in 2014. That is 6 years old Lexus for £4000. Adjusted for inflation that would be something like £5800 today. So how comes 2015 RC which is nearly 10 years old now is still £15,000?! BMW and other more popular brands are less of an issue to sell, but Lexus really has to be cheaper to interest anyone. Especially as 4-Series is overall cheaper than RC, year for year and mileage for mileage... and also BMW has actual engine choice that makes sense. I think the only advantage is that majority of Lexus comes well equipped standard, whereas BMW can really be as poverty line as it gets. But people don't shop like that... they see Lexus RC 2015 with 80k miles for £15,000 and compare it against BMW 4-series of same year with 80k miles for £9,500 and they go for BMW... even if it is horrible 420i/d m-sport with zero options, carboard seats etc.

So I think realistic price for lower RC nowadays, say ~180k miles 2015 300h F-sport should be £6,000-£8,000 to really interest anyone. Maybe up-to £10,000 if it has some good options like ML or Sunroof and lover miles.

On 6/20/2024 at 11:29 AM, H3XME said:

I was looking at RC300h recently as my daily driver, but even with prices being reasonable now, the insurance companies give you the "middle finger" because it's a newer lexus and thefts are a big problem... Just for comparison, the cheapest quote I had was £1700/year for a facelift 300h F-Sport. My IS250 or even IS350 is £500/year.. it's absolutely ridiculous. I'd never think I'd be priced out of a car by the insurance at nearly 30 years old.

Yeah not surprising. When I bought RC200t and called my insurance to transfer the cover from IS250, they told me "we can't insure you"... like AT ALL! And I was like "WTF? what you mean you can't insure me..." - "you see you are young driver (29! month away from 30) and it is powerful sports car (tiny 2L lawnmower engine that doesn't even make 250hp!)". And my quotes were also towards £2000. Sort of £1,700-£3,600. I mean in my case that was because of 2 non-fault claims (which is just so unfair)... so finally I ended-up with 10-Month cover for £1,100 and previous insurance froze my old policy (rather than cancelling it) for remaining time... so effectively in I got 2 years NCB (on top of 4 I already had) and at renewal price went back to somewhat normal £900.

This is UK think, BS scammers insurance, that punishes people for non-fault claims and for whom 2L engine is "powerful", and any car that has 2 doors is "sports" car despite RC200t acceleration being barely acceptable. 

[H3XME]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

This is UK think, BS scammers insurance, that punishes people for non-fault claims and for whom 2L engine is "powerful", and any car that has 2 doors is "sports" car despite RC200t acceleration being barely acceptable. 

It's what you get when you let people who have no f##king idea about cars manage car related things. It's a sh!t show.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, H3XME said:

It's what you get when you let people who have no f##king idea about cars manage car related things. It's a sh!t show.

They have very good idea of how to extort the money, insurance is not about the cars it is about profits. 

[H3XME]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

They have very good idea of how to extort the money, insurance is not about the cars it is about profits. 

Of course, but classifying cars based on the fact they have 2 doors or 2.0l engine when in reality it means nothing it crazy.

[Linas.P]

Just now, H3XME said:

Of course, but classifying cars based on the fact they have 2 doors or 2.0l engine when in reality it means nothing it crazy.

To be fair it was very poor attempt by some bloke sitting in Scottish warehouse to explain the price... 

The reality is that Lexus RC is classed with ridiculous insurance group and that what makes it so expensive to insure. On one hand it is fault of British Insurers Association and that is where you comment is very correct - people who have no clue about the cars should not be allowed near them, nevermind setting their insurance categories. However, it is part Lexus fault - RC is real mess, built on multiple platforms, too many unique body parts, poor after sales support (basically repair parts are every expensive, or not available) and then they also included stupid thing like exploding hood hinges and that makes repairing them really expensive, compared to say 4-series. So insurers basically sat down and decided "nah we don't want to deal with this". Similar to how BEVs, Range Rovers and Lexus SUVs are basically uninsurable.

RC thought does not suffer (or should not suffer) from theft related issues, as the model was released before Lexus brainless decision to run unencrypted CAN-BUS just behind the wheel liner. So the cars before facelift should not be penalised... although knowing how little insurance understand about the cars I would not be surprised if they have condemned all the cars with Lexus badge regardless.

[H3XME]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

RC thought does not suffer (or should not suffer) from theft related issues, as the model was released before Lexus brainless decision to run unencrypted CAN-BUS just behind the wheel liner. So the cars before facelift should not be penalised... although knowing how little insurance understand about the cars I would not be surprised if they have condemned all the cars with Lexus badge regardless.

It does suffer because of that. They just look at a 2019 Lexus and say "yep, it's a hybrid. Yep, it's expensive" falls in the same category when trying to insure it. That's what multiple insurance companies told me when I was getting quotes (I looked online but I always call a few because they are normally more competitive. And they were, but it was still almost £2k to insure it..)

Tell you what is cheaper though. Import. Imported Lexus is cheaper than a domestic counterpart 🤣 For me at least... 

[Linas.P]

Yeah - that must be like a Birmingham thing... for me imports are never cheaper. 

London thing is - put business use on insurance to make it cheaper, as far I know that isn't a thing anywhere else. But for last 5 years I am putting 2000 miles business use and it saves me like £200-£400.