Alternatives to Lexus RC200t/300h

[Linas.P]

@dutchie01, @noby76, @paulrnx and few others... are very interested to know what are alternatives for RC200t/300h (excluding RC-F).

19 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Well, lets put things in perspective. here. This is just an irrelevant forum about irrelevant cars with irrelevant people posting irrelevant messages on non important topics.

What we post here is not really going to change the world is it? Besides that it could well be there are more important topics in the world right now........

I will start from my opinion - Lexus RC being 2016 - 2020 model, the realistic alternatives have to be no older than 2014. For example BMW arguably had better tech , so RC tech in 2016 would be = to BMW tech in 2016.

Few conditions just to keep comparison apple to apple, cars must be:

• Petrol/Automatic 
• RWD (or AWD)
• 2 door
• 4/5 seat
• have a functional boot/folding rear seats
• Luxury brands and "GT class" - means small "sports cars" like Toyota GT86 or BMW 2-Series are excluded.
• Sold in UK
• under £20k for Petrol, under £25k if hybrid. 

I would say obvious contenders are:

• BMW 4/6-series
• Audi A5
• MB C/E-Class Coupe
• Infinity Q60

I would like to invite everyone to participate in discussion... 

 

[Linas.P]

I will start my-self with few cars which I believe could be considered:

• 2014+ BMW 435i/440i - this is the only BMW 4 series which could be considered as an upgrade for RC... all the rest having 2.0T engines and thus no better in any way. BMW is faster and better handling car, however everything in BMW is an option and any cars under £20k are very poorly equipped in comparison to Lexus. Further, BMW is not as reliable, for the price under £20k would have higher mileage and would be few years older. Not as cool as they are on every corner.
• 2014+ BMW 640i/650i - much the same like BMW4, just even more dull looking car, even older tech but 650i comes with V8. Although for under £20k - one needs to expect car in very poor condition with loads of miles.
• Audi A5 3.0TFSI - the only reason car on the list because technically it just about makes the list. 2014 is the last model year of old Face-lifted Audi A5 - it is terrible to drive as AWD means very vague steering, the car is originally from 2007, so the tech inside is terribly outdated.
• MB E400 - the only reason car on the list because technically it just about makes the list. It is late C207 body face-lift car with horrible MB tech from 2009.

Sadly, no other car makes a cut:

• New MB C/E-Class coupes are over £25k
• New Audi A5 is over £25k
• Infinity Q60 is over £25k

49 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Question remains however, what will be the next Linasmobile?  How about infinity Q60? coupe RWD big six cylinder, 4 seats and not expensive!

To specifically address this point - I considered Q60 when getting RC200t. Problem was there were like 8 Q60 in UK at any given time - on the day I bought my car there were 7 - Q60 2.0t from £23,000 and single Q60 3.0t for £38,000. Add on top that Infinity is very poor quality car, based on Nissan but even less reliable - this doesn't make for appealing alternative.

Today there is only one car for sale and that is Q60 3.0t for £29000. So not exactly great choice. 

Finally, I believe that any car is interesting provided the price is right - that is what I always said about 200t by the way. I never said I won't buy it, I just said "the price has to be right".

[paulrnx]

A Jaguar XK 5.0 would be my choice

[scudney]

As long as you have a deep pocket to go with it lol😆 

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, paulrnx said:

A Jaguar XK 5.0 would be my choice

Clearly does not fit criteria, see above.

Yes very last years of production were 2015, but you would be expected to pay £28,000 for 2007 car made in 2015. It could be argued if it has rear seats at all, but let's say technically it does. 5L supercharged engine sounds awesome in theory, but it is extremely unreliable and expensive to maintain car. Equipment and technology is poor (even for 2007 standards) and by 2014 this car makes little sense.

[paulrnx]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Clearly does not fit criteria, see above.

Yes very last years of production were 2015, but you would be expected to pay £28,000 for 2007 car made in 2015. It could be argued if it has rear seats at all, but let's say technically it does. 5L supercharged engine sounds awesome in theory, but it is extremely unreliable and expensive to maintain car. Equipment and technology is poor (even for 2007 standards) and by 2014 this car makes little sense.

It would still be my choice. I’d bend my criteria to accommodate it. As opposed to creating a massive set of fussy criteria where the only answer was an RC200t, a car with a drivetrain that I really hated 😂

[First_Lexus]

Dodge Challenger. Bit older, more miles, and certainly a bit of a left-field choice...left-hand drive and imported, but could be  fun?

Autotrader Challenger

 

 

[paulrnx]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Clearly does not fit criteria, see above.

Yes very last years of production were 2015, but you would be expected to pay £28,000 for 2007 car made in 2015. It could be argued if it has rear seats at all, but let's say technically it does. 5L supercharged engine sounds awesome in theory, but it is extremely unreliable and expensive to maintain car. Equipment and technology is poor (even for 2007 standards) and by 2014 this car makes little sense.

They did two versions of the 5 litre engine, one a naturally aspirated version developing 385BHP and the other the supercharged version developing just over 500BHP. I’d have the naturally aspirated Portfolio version because I’ve always found that 385BHP was enough 😀.
 

It’s an award winning engine capable of amazing economy returns when required but also capable of massive performance. When I ran an XF 5.0 v8 with this engine I could regularly get 32 mpg on a long run. Imagine that Linas, a 5 litre v8 that gives better economy than your RC200t 😉

[paulrnx]

1 minute ago, First_Lexus said:

Dodge Challenger. Bit older, more miles, and certainly a bit of a left-field choice...left-hand drive and imported, but could be  fun?

Autotrader Challenger

 

 

I like this idea! Got me thinking Mustang too then!

[royoftherovers]

7 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

It would still be my choice. I’d bend my criteria to accommodate it. As opposed to creating a massive set of fussy criteria where the only answer was an RC200t, a car with a drivetrain that I really hated 😂

Just eavesdropping in on the friendly exchanges between Paul and Linas takes me back, perhaps 50 plus years ago to my studying days  to  a book entitled "The psychology of Individual differences"

No two of us are the same.

[First_Lexus]

Just now, paulrnx said:

I like this idea! Got me thinking Mustang too then!

Get yourself a ‘Make America Great Again’ baseball cap and you could imagine you’re cruising around Alabama...

[Linas.P]

21 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

It would still be my choice. I’d bend my criteria to accommodate it. As opposed to creating a massive set of fussy criteria where the only answer was an RC200t, a car with a drivetrain that I really hated 😂

That is fair enough I guess... Although criteria is not made for 200t to win, but rather on realistic and practical considerations - like reliability, convenience/technology, comfort etc.

The criteria is there to make choices comparable and reasonable - because without it... then it could be any car. Somebody could come and say "what about £250k Aston Martin DB4? amazing car!" indeed it is, but not a realistic alternative to RC200t.

Would Nissan Z370 meet the criteria - yes it probably would... but I am not boy racer and I don't want nasty looking basic interior and I would rather keep my teeth when going over bumps. 

Same for Jaguar - it is outdated EOL car, which is very unreliable, when I need to go somewhere I don't want to do it in courtesy Toyota Aygo.. It just isn't dependable car.

Mustang comes close - but no close enough. You can get 2.3L eco-boost for ~£25k. So too expensive and not really an improvement, never-mind atrocious build quality.

Dodge - that is non-starter, not sold in UK... I mean if you don't find this criteria "reasonable".. then I don't know what you would.

[royoftherovers]

Just now, First_Lexus said:

Get yourself a ‘Make America Great Again’ baseball cap and you could imagine you’re cruising around Alabama...

Is that the Alabama just South of New York in Northumberland Ed ?

[paulrnx]

7 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Get yourself a ‘Make America Great Again’ baseball cap and you could imagine you’re cruising around Alabama...

With loads of flags on the back too 😂

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

They did two versions of the 5 litre engine, one a naturally aspirated version developing 385BHP and the other the supercharged version developing just over 500BHP. I’d have the naturally aspirated Portfolio version because I’ve always found that 385BHP was enough 😀.

It’s an award winning engine capable of amazing economy returns when required but also capable of massive performance. When I ran an XF 5.0 v8 with this engine I could regularly get 32 mpg on a long run. Imagine that Linas, a 5 litre v8 that gives better economy than your RC200t 😉

I am aware of that, engine however is just one part of many in car. That 5L V8 does 32MPG is not amazing or surprising, RC-F 5L V8 does that as well.. with even more HP.

What is amazing is that 2L Turbo in RC200t is so uneconomical. Which goes back to my point that this engine should not exist. How somebody in Lexus came to conclusion that "yes this is what we need, this is good enough!".

I don't think that Jaguar is bad car, it simply has it's place - "that is fun to drive weekend car". If I could choose I would probably have some sort of EV (not Tesla) for commuting and I can see Jaguar as perfect 2nd or 3rd car. If it has fault then it isn't an issue - it is just weekend car and you can sort it out in the mean time before you need to use it. However, that is not good enough for a daily.. 

 

[Silversalmon]

Are Kia Stingers an option? 

[Linas.P]

20 minutes ago, Silversalmon said:

Are Kia Stingers an option? 

How many doors does it have? and how much does it cost? 😁 

@paulrnx - and you are not happy for me setting some criteria? I imagine if criteria is not set - in that case it could be literally any car. And then what is the value of the discussion, even without discussion I can straight away conclude that any car has a matching person who thinks that car is perfect for one reason or the other.

There are even people who like Reliant Robins! There is even a dedicated owners club for it... I am sure if I ask them what "coupe" I should have they will anonymously say - "Reliant Robin - that is a perfect coupe for you!".

[Silversalmon]

5 doors, i drove one up in Orkney, stunning car and blisteringly quick. 7 year warranty, they have confidence in their product. I guess autotrader will give you prices. Just a left field option.

[MNMJ]

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Few conditions just to keep comparison apple to apple, cars must be:

• Petrol/Automatic 
• RWD (or AWD)
• 2 door
• 4/5 seat
• have a functional boot/folding rear seats
• Luxury brands and "GT class" - means small "sports cars" like Toyota GT86 or BMW 2-Series are excluded.
• Sold in UK
• under £20k for Petrol, under £25k if hybrid.

Wait 6-12 months and buy an RCF? Easily does 33+ mpg on a long run

[Linas.P]

31 minutes ago, MNMJ said:

Wait 6-12 months and buy an RCF? Easily does 33+ mpg on a long run

That is my plan... however I don't believe RC-F will cost under £25k in 6-12 months... or even in 3 years time. RC-F is great car, but again I would say it has more power than I need, or could reasonably use. Yes some may cost £25k, I think a year ago there was one even for £24k, but they most likely going to be absolutely destroyed condition. I would imagine RC-F in good condition will remain ~£30k car for foreseeable future ~3years.

The only reason I didn't buy RC-F is because it is too expensive to buy, too expensive to own and I would just be paying premium for all the extra power I could not use - like a "supercar tax" (or so I have thought). Not sure how Lexus missed the gaping gap in their line-up between 200t/300h and RC-F, they covered 2 ultimate ends of the market with nothing in between.

The only clear mistake I made - I assumed that RC200t will be more economical than RC-F (and I don't think this is unreasonable assumption), thus easier to justify commuting in it. It is beyond belief that heavier 5L 467HP car is more economical than lighter 2L 242HP car - this defies laws of physics, logic or common sense!

There are other consideration, but all really becomes irrelevant considering how terrible 200t is e.g. I barely got insurance on 200t when I bought it and I ended-up paying £1036 for 10 months (~£1243 for a year). I would imagine RC-F would cost 50% more. Road tax is as well £565 vs. £240. But all in all I think this £800/year extra is worth it... Amazingly, I would probably save that much on fuel alone in RC-F (who would have thought that getting RC-F is a way to save fuel!).

 

[paulrnx]

I’m not sure of the purpose of this thread. I did wonder whether it was just a thread to justify Linas’s choice of his car. It’s a great car you have bought Linas but still a surprising choice given your previous longstanding criticism of the engine and gearbox. I stand by this and nothing you say would ever change my mind. I’ve enjoyed the banter but I won’t be posting about your car again. Enjoy your car and who knows in time you may come to love it 😀👍

[doog442]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

The only clear mistake I made - I assumed that RC200t will be more economical than RC-F (and I don't think this is unreasonable assumption), thus easier to justify commuting in it. It is beyond belief that heavier 5L 467HP car is more economical than lighter 2L 242HP car - this defies laws of physics, logic or common sense!

 

It sounds like there is something else the matter with your car (you bought a bit of a dog that clearly hadn't been looked after correct? )

The four pot is considerably more economical than an RCF....I was getting well over 40mpg on a run, my guess is you drive like a nutter. 

[Linas.P]

17 hours ago, paulrnx said:

(1) I did wonder whether it was just a thread to justify Linas’s choice of his car.

(2) surprising choice given your previous longstanding criticism of the engine and gearbox

(1) Actually, you are not wrong, I think one half of the reason is my justification of my choice. The other half is splitting away off-topic from original thread:

• In the first thread I have shared my experience with the car, I never asked for other cars suggestions, but that is natural off topic. In nutshell - it is a thread about my experience with the car as if other cars don't exist (it is about me). I probably stated myself that buying this cars was mistake - automatically meaning that other choice existed and could have been made. As I noted there, I don't mind discussing it especially when suggestions considers the criteria I had when buying the car - problem is I got constant barrage with suggestions which ignores the key requirements.
• This is where this thread comes in, I stated clearly defined criteria to cover the type of the car I was looking for, in one hand to show that there are very few cars who really does what I need and to other hand genuinely discuss alternatives. I thought maybe I just haven't made the criteria clear and therefore it is unreasonable that people would know what I want and why, but maybe there is something I have really missed and not considered... This thread is about all the other cars which are competitors to full-fill specific needs and I as a person am irrelevant here (it is about RC200t).

(2) Not so surprising considering my longstanding praise of Lexus brand reliability, build quality, premium materials used and the looks of specifically RC. So as you can see you only focused on one half of what I was telling all along. Even if you look back to my very critical review of RC300h - I praised it's looks, I praised the interior (except of fake plastic carbon fibre trim pieces), I even praised eCVT box in that particular car. I only criticised the engine. As well in RC200t have never criticised gearbox, I think it is great gearbox but crap engine. I know that you stated opposite, not sure what is your true opinion is, but it seem that you think it is gearbox issue and not the engine's.

So all that said I think it was right to create this thread to separate two quite distinct discussion with different goals. I hoped that people could stick to the topic, but it seems that threads are merging together again. As alternative cars choices are still being suggested in other thread and my personal use being considered here - like in @doog442 post just above (which is perfectly reasonable and justified post, just better placed in the other thread).

[dutchie01]

I am afraid this is getting complicated Linas, if not impossible. Whatever you will do it is going to cost you. Just saying but you could have made an expensive mistake in buying your RC200T, a car without any demand. You got it for a good price 15.5k and after only 1 year you are looking for an alternative not costing more than 20k. Here comes trouble. Selling the car private will be a big challenge if not impossible and if you want to trade in for a 20k car what will be the bid? 9k? maybe they dont want it at all and you could be stuck here. The only way of getting a good price will be to trade in for a new LC500..

  

[Linas.P]

You absolutely correct. 200t is extreme pain to get rid off, I assume that is why I was able to get "amazing" deal on it.

Although, you are under-valuing it a bit - cash in hand price I can get for "buy any car" type of places is ~12k, PX for other brand ~14k, but obviously expectation is that I would be trading-up for more expensive car. I guess I could get close to 17k if I would PX to RC-F or LC with Lexus, but realistically it is not so much value I get from my car, rather discount off the car I am buying.

The positive side is that when I bought it was waiting for 80k miles major service (£730), all new brakes (as I find out £1155), set of tyres (~£600), fixing driver seat (costed £4200) and cosmetically did no look great either (£600 detail job). From my luck (and a lot of shrewd negotiation) - I managed to sort all above without spending single penny.

Now it has free 2 year service, all new brakes, healthy set of tyres, driver seat is fixed and I did full multistage detail and ceramic coating myself. In short car looks very presentable, if not a bit above expectation for mileage. Other strong point is that car has absolutely every single extra possible and what I believe "desirable colour" (although that is personal taste). With this in mind I set very optimistic goal that it could be sold at £17k privately, but you are right - it will be very very hard (if not impossible) to find buyer.

Realistically, the only person who could buy it would be somebody in similar place as I am - does not want or cannot afford RC-F, but finds 300h unacceptably slow. It is possible that I am the only such person in UK so I am not holding breadth. 

Indeed I hope the buyer won't read my post before buying 😁 I have not made myself any favours here, but being objective is more important for me than loosing some money.