retro fit mark levinson system

[para999]

hi as the title says.i want to know if it's possible to retro fit the mark levinson system to my 2020 CT ? i have asked my dealership and they won't.they wouldn't even fit an extension 12v plug in the glovebox for my sat nav. the reason i didn'thave it fitted on build is because it's only avaiable if you have the sunroof on the takumi pack as well and i can't see the point of a sunroof when you have aircon.anyhow hopefully somebody will know. thanks

[Spacewagon52]

Is it worth doing? Is the standard sound system that bad?

[para999]

it's down to choice bit like other high end amplifier systems.more range settings.

[Spacewagon52]

1 minute ago, para999 said:

it's down to choice bit like bosse and other high end amplifier systems.

Fair enough!

[Herbie]

I would think that it's possible but hardly worth it.

I don't know how many speakers are in a CT but I seem to remember reading that the standard system in the RX has about 11 but the Levinson system has about 17.

You can almost guarantee that any wiring looms needed will not be there so you'll have to dismantle half the car to get speakers and wiring installed, plus any other interconnects.

Like you, I don't see the point of a sunroof with climate control but if you really wanted the Levinson system, why didn't you just get the sunroof and not use it?

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Is it worth doing? Is the standard sound system that bad?

Yes in CT/IS/RC/UX/NX the standard poverty line system is actually quite atrocious. I remember getting used to standard 13 speaker system in my IS250 and then going to do 24hour test-drive in brand new RC300h which had standard system and being shocked. They have 6 Speaker system which is terrible, £9000 Ford Fiesta has much better standard audio system (actually comes with decent Sony 10 speakers system).

At very least what you need is to buy "premium navigation" which then comes with fairly decent 10 speaker system.

@para999 - retrofitting ML in CT is neither worth it nor (realistically) possible. Easiest way is to get the car with ML (hence I waited for so long until I found RC with ML) in the first place. If you really that concerned about the sound quality, then your best move would be to add pair of coaxial (2x100w) and matching stereo amp in the back and active sub-woofer in the boot (like in good old times). This would simply complement existing system, but if you fit anything more powerful then it will necessitate upgrading rest of the speakers in the car.  

[Herbie]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

If you really that concerned about the sound quality, then your best move would be to add pair of coaxial (2x100w) and matching stereo amp in the back and active sub-woofer in the boot (like in good old times). This would simply complement existing system, but if you fit anything more powerful then it will necessitate upgrading rest of the speakers in the car

To be honest I'm surprised that things like this are legal.

I was brought up on, and still happily listen to some of the world's loudest bands such as Deep Purple, LED Zeppelin, AC/DC and so on and when our next-door neighbours are out I crank up the hifi to ear-bleeding volumes, so I'm no stranger to loud music.

However, the cabin of a car is not the place for such things. How would you hear the warning blast of a car horn alerting you to some imminent danger?

[NemesisUK]

First up 'worth' is very much objective as is anything audio..

A car is hardly the place to expect HiFi audio. It's a tine box rumbling along an imperfect surface..

The standard audio in my first RC was perfectly acceptable (for an in car system) and the ML in my second RC is definitely an improvement on that. Is it worth the £1000 price tag? Well as a percentage of the overall purchase price, yes. As a stand alone cost no way..

Just about anything can be retro-fitted to vehicles these days but the complexity and the knock on costs are very much greater. Only the person paying the bill can assess it's worth to them.

[NemesisUK]

30 minutes ago, Herbie said:

I don't know how many speakers are in a CT but I seem to remember reading that the standard system in the RX has about 11 but the Levinson system has about 17.

 

All one ever wanted to know regarding ML in a Lexus (but in all reality couldn't give a ...... )

https://www.marklevinson.com/in-lexus.html#lexus-rc

 

[Linas.P]

 

The standard system in Lexus is only good to listen to radio and nothing else - it isn't like speakers are not loud enough, but sound reproduction is simply terrible. Anything over half of volume becomes very "thin" and feels like speakers are about to rip themselves apart. This particularly big issue when considering "modern" music which has a lot of low frequencies.

Listening to any music in the car necessitates few decent wide-frequency speakers and dedicated sub-woofer to make it bearable. Having 2x100w coaxial + say 200w sub is fairly basic set-up, but provides decent stand-alone experience. The exiting 6 speakers are no longer needed at this point, but can stay around without interfering much.

@NemesisUK - did you have the most basic system with knob and without any sat-nav, or did you have sat-nav?

14 minutes ago, Herbie said:

To be honest I'm surprised that things like this are legal.

I was brought up on, and still happily listen to some of the world's loudest bands such as Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC and so on and when our next-door neighbours are out I crank up the hifi to ear-bleeding volumes, so I'm no stranger to loud music.

However, the cabin of a car is not the place for such things. How would you hear the warning blast of a car horn alerting you to some imminent danger?

That seems to me like completely unrelated topic, so I don't go deep into it. Yes it is legal and if you don't do anything stupid on the road, then hopefully nobody going to need to beep at you in the first place. Is it distraction - yes (like many things), does it impact the way we drive - yes it does... so does many other things (like kids in the car). Let's not become PC here and stop people from listening music in cars, or having their kids inside 😁

[Herbie]

10 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Let's not become PC here and stop people from listening music in cars, or having their kids inside 😁

I would never stop anyone from listening to music in their car. I listen to the bands I mentioned above, in my car.

My point was that a standard non-ML system can provide volume levels high enough, even too high, for listening in a car. The volume control in my RX goes to 99 but it's plenty loud enough, even for my loud tastes, at 35 or less. No need for hundreds of Watts or extra subwoofers, and at 35 or less I can still hear car horns outside but it's loud enough inside to overcome the road noise.

[Linas.P]

10 minutes ago, Herbie said:

I would never stop anyone from listening to music in their car. I listen to the bands I mentioned above, in my car.

My point was that a standard non-ML system can provide volume levels high enough, even too high, for listening in a car. The volume control in my RX goes to 99 but it's plenty loud enough, even for my loud tastes, at 35 or less. No need for hundreds of Watts or extra subwoofers, and at 35 or less I can still hear car horns outside but it's loud enough inside to overcome the road noise.

As I said - it is not about how loud they are, but more about how inappropriately cheap they are. They are literally painful to listen at any volume in my opinion.

~400w sound system is about average what you get in the car nowadays (your RX has similar RMS power from those 11 speakers), so it is nothing inappropriate about it. And again, I am not suggesting to play it at full volume all the time - yet they still provide much better quality sound even at 25 or 50%, although it is completely up-to whomever listens to the music to decide how loud they do it.

Finally, I am not even going to go into details why you wrong about hearing car horn - simplified version of it... how loud is noise is defined by Decibels, not Watts. Even 2000w car stereo going to max out at ~90-100dB, whereas car horn is 107-109dB, meaning you will hear it even if you have new LS with 23 speaker 2400w ML system. 

[Inazone]

I installed a couple of 6x9s on the rear parcel shelf and a 10inch sub in the boot of my is300h, as the standard 6 speaker system really lacks any substance like most people have experienced. It's one of the things that has disappointed me about lexus especially as it's a premium brand! For anyone who is thinking about attempting to do it, you need to be fairly confident as the whole interior of the car was removed to get access to the parcel shelf which cannot be removed as welded in... Also you have to break into the rear door speaker wires to pickup an audio feed as there are no audio looms to use. Having said that the effort was worth it! My sound system is now better than any ML system, and I can't wait to get in the car and crank up the tunes while chilling out driving...

Sent from my G8142 using Tapatalk

[Linas.P]

7 minutes ago, Inazone said:

 It's one of the things that has disappointed me about lexus especially as it's a premium brand!

Yes this was unusually cheap audio for Lexus. The old IS came standard with very nice 13-Speakers system and ML only added 1 more speaker (front-centre). Obviously, Lexus realised that at this point nobody going to upgrade to ML (frankly there was no need), so when they released IS mk3 they made sure to aggressively tier it:

• Standard go 6 speakers (terrible quality, like you would find in rental Transit van)
• Premium got 10 speakers (which was decent)
• ML got 15 speakers ( RC got 17 - to be honest sound isn't substantially better to justify the cost, but the are good for car speakers).

Good news that with FL model Lexus has dropped the awful 6-speakers system for all models except of UX and CT. 

As well CT has parcel shelf /boot cover - so access is quite good, but holes would obviousness the cover. I would suggest getting separate cover from breakers for this job ( in case anything goes wrong).

[NemesisUK]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Finally, I am not even going to go into details why you wrong about hearing car horn - simplified version of it... how loud is noise is defined by Decibels, not Watts. Even 2000w car stereo going to max out at ~90-100dB, whereas car horn is 107-109dB, meaning you will hear it even if you have new LS with 23 speaker 2400w ML system. 

Those levels are normally quoted at a distance of 1m. Double that distance and reduces by 6dB , double the distance 1/2 the SPL

So that horn is going to have to be right next to the car..

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

Those levels are normally quoted at a distance of 1m. Double that distance and reduces by 6dB , double the distance 1/2 the SPL

So that horn is going to have to be right next to the car..

if it is far further, then I guess it is no longer "an immediate danger". 

Anyhow, having car speakers so loud so that you cannot hear the horn from even 10-30 metres is very unlikely (it is possible, but unlikely) ~400w speakers definitely does not come even close to that. Add to that - most of dB in car stereo will come from subwoofer, which will be fitted in the boot. So same applies here - it may be 102dB measured @1m in the boot itself, but in the cabin it will be nowhere near that.

As well, could you confirm you had 6 speakers audio in your RC e.g. system with rotating knob or did you have sat-nav? 

[NemesisUK]

41 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

As well, could you confirm you had 6 speakers audio in your RC e.g. system with rotating knob or did you have sat-nav? 

No, I had the premium set-up with 10 speakers. Not sure the number of speakers dictates the sound quality, more the distribution within the cabin. Aren't the amplifiers the same, standard and premium, only the ML has the 'better' more powerful amp?

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

No, I had the premium set-up with 10 speakers. Not sure the number of speakers dictates the sound quality, more the distribution within the cabin. Aren't the amplifiers the same, standard and premium, only the ML has the 'better' more powerful amp?

Well, then you haven't experience "the horror".... 

No they are not, even manufacturers are different - one is Panasonic and other one is Pioneer. Yes indeed placement and quality of speakers is more important than the number or the power of them. I have never seen the power number quoted for neither Pioneer, nor Panasonic. 

Just my guess, but Pioneer system will be ~400-500W, some sources in US claims 475W, whereas Panasonic is ~240-300W. This would be in line with IS mk2 having 375W AMP. It is bit difficult to put numbers, because the only source I can find are Lexus.us posts. Actually, I am not even sure if poverty line stereo has dedicated AMP - it may be just standard 4x40 (or 4x50) coming out of the head unit and somehow bridged between 6 speakers. ML as it is well know is 835W dedicated AMP with 10+1 channels.

Panasonic system actually has 6 speakers, Pioneer has 8 (not 10) and ML has 12 (not 17). This is because both Pioneer and ML uses some Coaxial speakers and they double count them as "components", which is kind of misleading.

[para999]

wow all opinions thanks.i did invest in the premium sat nav system but i wanted the ML system as all my cars i have gone for the upgrade sound system and in my last lexus you could buy the ML system as an upgrade on its own ( which i did ) but now of course you can't. as for buying something ( sunroof) and i hasten to add paying extra for it. why would you do that it doesn't sound sensible to pay extra for something you would never use.as for adding the speaker system that was suggested i wouldn't do that because of my previous experience with lexus and their warranty they are quite good at excuses to prevent you doing things like this they warn you risk invalidating your warranty on the whole car ( their words not mine) i'm not going to go into the inns and out of this there is history about it on this forum under another section. i was hoping once it was fitted by the dealership it would not affect the warranty.looks like it isn't going to happen.there is a garage just up the road from me that do work on another brand of car and all the work they do is guaranteed and complies with the brands conditions, furthermore it doesn't invalidate any warranty. i was hoping there would be a garage similar to the type i have mentioned for the lexus brand. but it speaks volumes when the main lexus dealership won't do a simple install of an addition 12v socket that they really aren't interested unless it is for servicing only,although strangely enough they did fit a catloc for me.

i've just been on the lexus site and it seems they have stopped doing the takumi pack ( which had the ML system ). they also seem to have stopped making the takumi model of the CT.that solves that i guess.

[Herbie]

1 hour ago, NemesisUK said:

Those levels are normally quoted at a distance of 1m. Double that distance and reduces by 6dB , double the distance 1/2 the SPL

So that horn is going to have to be right next to the car..

 

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

if it is far further, then I guess it is no longer "an immediate danger". 

Anyhow, having car speakers so loud so that you cannot hear the horn from even 10-30 metres is very unlikely (it is possible, but unlikely)

I don't know what planet you're living on Linas but round here there are some numpties who have such big systems in their cars and wound up so loud that you can hear them from two streets away and as they pass the house, our windows shake!

You cannot possibly be telling me that if he was about to reverse into something or someone, that he would hear a car horn trying to warn him of the danger are you?

[Linas.P]

25 minutes ago, Herbie said:

I don't know what planet you're living on Linas but round here there are some numpties who have such big systems in their cars and wound up so loud that you can hear them from two streets away and as they pass the house, our windows shake!

You cannot possibly be telling me that if he was about to reverse into something or someone, that he would hear a car horn trying to warn him of the danger are you?

Yes indeed there are such numpties, but then we are talking about two completely different cases:

1. is having decent audio system that you could use to enjoy music in your car, not necessary very loud, but clear and deep. Well made systems with ~400-1000W does it well. I would say any reason to have any more than 1000W (like new LS has 2400W, some Bentleys have 2800W) is not to make it louder, but to allow for more adjustment. You can as well achieve excellent sound quality whilst keeping the system at say 20-30%. 
2. are show cars and some real idiot drivers who drive show cars on the street and blast their music to show off. Do you want to guess how much watts they have in their cars? Mate... they can easily have 8 or more subs with 10k (EACH!).We talking about the systems with 200,000+ Watts.

I seen van with 20 of these + 30 other speakers - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ground-Zero-15SPL-Subwoofer-10000-black/dp/B003TSD57K . There are versions with 20,000W - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253972541711?var=0 and here you are concerned about legality of 400w system with 200w subwoofer... 

Should this be illegal on street? - yes I agree it should be. I mean they pushing 170dB on some of the systems and that is literally dangerous levels of noise which could cause permanent hearing loss. So if you hear somebody driving, with music so load that entire neighbourhood windows are shaking... they will have systems with well in excess of 10,000W.

[NemesisUK]

Taking speakers of equal sensitivity, to double the perceived loudness (an increase in 10dB at 1m) one would need to increase the amperage by 10 fold...

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, para999 said:

i did invest in the premium sat nav system but i wanted the ML system as all my cars i have gone for the upgrade sound system

In that case you honestly not missing much. ML has better placement of the speakers and more clarity, but less bass. If you fan of classic music then ML is outright better, but for hip-hop actually it may be other way around. Further, CT does not even get 17 speaker ML, but rather older 13 speaker ML which was fitted since beginning (like 2011) - P47:http://forms.lexus.co.uk/ebrochures/Lexus_CT_e-brochure.pdf?ac=C5534&mc=IPRMC010&URN=0

[Stompe]

We seem to get confused with volume over quality, especially the younger generation, a system suited for Classics will not be great for Heavy Rock, Ive invested in Hearing aid companies... The youth of today will all be deaf by 30,😷😂

[Linas.P]

30 minutes ago, Stompe said:

We seem to get confused with volume over quality

In some way I agree - there is quite a of of research done in "music quality" and conclusion is that music "complexity, variety and quality" is much worse nowadays. On top of that the speakers and amplifiers are so much cheaper nowadays per watt that anyone could easily build 10,000W system for under £1000. So simply abundance of poor quality music and equipment could lead into problems.

However, when we are talking about 6-speakers entry level system in Lexus there is no confusion, it is literally trash quality speakers and they sound awful and any volume.

10-speaker Pioneer (premium sat-nav) and 13-17-speaker ML systems are more or less on par. Yes they are no loud, but your argument would be correct here - they are good quality.