Is there a case for Electric Vehicles for private ownership?

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, paulrnx said:

If I was still self-employed I’d be driving round in an I-Pace given the attractive BIK and ability to offset the whole purchase price in the first year. I agree that they make almost zero sense as a private buyer unless very wealthy. I know so many people who drive BMW 330e and 530e models simply to reduce their company car tax burden. Which is fair enough really. And many have never charged their cars up. Just a financial numbers thing.

But life isn’t always about the bottom line...........

[Spacewagon52]

3 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

But life isn’t always about the bottom line...........

Certainly not! The bottom line is the last ride you have in a vehicle - a hearse!

[paulrnx]

4 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

But life isn’t always about the bottom line...........

I think it is when you have a company car. The difference between a good choice and a bad choice can be thousands of pounds in tax paid pa. Nothing wrong with an I-Pace either. The single most impressive car I’ve driven in the last 20 years I’d say. I’d have one in a shot. The point of the thread is that EVs are not generally affordable for the private motorist and this is right I think.

[Barry14UK]

I read that the intention over time is to replace gas boilers in domestic property with electric power.  I think this could pose greater strain on generation and distribution than electric cars but a double whammy for the industry.  If cuts are to be made at times, I suggest this will more likely affect common car points than providing heating and power to homes.

[Boxbrownie]

11 hours ago, paulrnx said:

 Nothing wrong with an I-Pace either. The single most impressive car I’ve driven in the last 20 years I’d say. I’d have one in a shot. The point of the thread is that EVs are not generally affordable for the private motorist and this is right I think.

Indeed, we have one on the farm........

All wheel drive is useful 🤣

[Boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Barry14UK said:

I read that the intention over time is to replace gas boilers in domestic property with electric power.  I think this could pose greater strain on generation and distribution than electric cars but a double whammy for the industry.  If cuts are to be made at times, I suggest this will more likely affect common car points than providing heating and power to homes.

I thought the intention was to replace/convert gas boilers to use hydrogen, our brand new boiler had a note in the installation book to the effect that it was designed to be converted to use hydrogen or so the Valiant fitters told us.

[Barry14UK]

3 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

I thought the intention was to replace/convert gas boilers to use hydrogen, our brand new boiler had a note in the installation book to the effect that it was designed to be converted to use hydrogen or so the Valiant fitters told us.

Well hydrogen may play a part but not propounded by my boiler manufacturer who lists more heat pumps and electric boilers from a quick read. https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/what-will-replace-gas-boilers-2025

[Herbie]

13 hours ago, Barry14UK said:

I read that the intention over time is to replace gas boilers in domestic property with electric power.

I'm not sure about that, especially given the state of the National Grid but, even if it is correct, it won't happen for a very long time.

Electricity is more expensive than gas because it's a 'secondary' fuel. In other words, some other fuel, a 'primary' fuel such as gas, has to be used in order to generate the electricity.

[Boxbrownie]

58 minutes ago, Barry14UK said:

Well hydrogen may play a part but not propounded by my boiler manufacturer who lists more heat pumps and electric boilers from a quick read. https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-advice/what-will-replace-gas-boilers-2025

Heat pumps both ground source and air source are very well established and a large proportion of new homes come with these from new now, I've not heard anything about electric boilers though.

[Barry14UK]

4 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

Heat pumps both ground source and air source are very well established and a large proportion of new homes come with these from new now, I've not heard anything about electric boilers though.

Electric boilers are mainly used at present in areas where there is no gas supply and or even oil supply is difficult, oil being another alternative but not considered a 'green' one though the long term running cost of electric is higher than oil too.  I suppose a lot will depend on how the Government legislate to reduce fossil fuels to meet environmental targets.  Although increased PV and wind added to the heat pumps and hydrogen will also help, the growing population and consequent increased demand for electricity for more homes etc., will along with increased numbers of electric cars add to the load on the grid.

There is plenty on the net about electric boilers, here is one ref :-https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/electric-boilers/

[Boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Barry14UK said:

Electric boilers are mainly used at present in areas where there is no gas supply and or even oil supply is difficult,

How very odd 😀

[EvilRacer329]

I would love an electric car. Cheap to run, zero road tax, no engine to service, starts every day with a full tank, hilariously quick off the line. Sure, long trips may involve a lunch-tea break somewhere with a fast charger, but if you don't need to travel 200+ miles on a regular basis it's a no-brainer. And if you're a company-car driver, you'd be a bit of a fool to choose anything else given the 0% BIK at the moment.

But for a private buyer, the problems are price and choice. I wanted a reliable, quality luxury car, which rather narrowed things down to Lexus, who until recently didn't have an electric offering. If I'd been significantly more wealthy then Tesla and the German manufacturers have choices, but I've seen those brands' reliability scores. I could have gotten a new Nissan Leaf, Kia/Hyundai electric or even waited for a VW ID3, but those aren't premium products, despite being priced the same as my hybrid UX.

In 15 years' time I daresay the infrastructure problem will have been solved and costs will have come down to a parity with petrol/hybrid options. Otherwise the government may have to pull a sharp u-turn and allow PHEV's to live on as options beyond their 2035 deadline. Let's face it, there are plenty of people driving around in older cars getting 30mpg and spewing out dirty exhaust. If we were to shift those folks into 50mpg+ hybrids or range-extended/PHEV vehicles over the next 10-15 years, we'd be halving our emissions - all without putting a significant strain on the grid.

Do I still want an electric car, complete with all the benefits, but I cannot afford or do not want to pay the premium at this time. When my UX is ten years old, perhaps things will be different.

Nick

[Herbie]

It's going to be a very long time before electric cars become properly viable.

We all know that manufacturers 'fiddle' the petrol consumption figures and that there isn't a cat in hell's chance of achieving what they state, so I assume the mileage range of EVs will suffer similarly, with stated figures referring to a nice sunny day with no equipment activated. I'll bet they drop to half that in winter when you need lights, heater, rear screen heater and suchlike switched on.

As for the infrastructure, as already mentioned above, the grid is creaking at the seams now. Any improvements to the grid are quickly nullified by new estates and new demand. Overnight electricity is only cheap because of low use - when everyone starts to charge their EVs overnight that will be wiped out; people who live in high-rise flats or terraced houses with no facility to charge etc.

No, EVs can only ever be a stop-gap to something else.

[royoftherovers]

A really good post Nick.

The National Grid is needing enormous investment and the vehicle charging infrastructure likewise. In my view they are both a generation away. No pun intended.

EU financial penalties are driving the manufacturers towards the manufacture and over-hyping of electric vehicles. It would have made more sense to have a phased move via all hybrid vehicles first.

[Boxbrownie]

45 minutes ago, Herbie said:

It's going to be a very long time before electric cars become properly viable.

We all know that manufacturers 'fiddle' the petrol consumption figures and that there isn't a cat in hell's chance of achieving what they state, so I assume the mileage range of EVs will suffer similarly, with stated figures referring to a nice sunny day with no equipment activated. I'll bet they drop to half that in winter when you need lights, heater, rear screen heater and suchlike switched on.

Total b*ll*cks.......this is typical petrol head rubbish, our i3 has a stated range of 114 miles (183 km).......In Summer we get an easy 125 miles during Winter it never gets lower than 100 miles, we NEVER turn the AC off (as with all our cars) and it’s driven as any other vehicle we have owned, like normal not “hypermiling”.

 

You assume very incorrectly.

[EvilRacer329]

I suppose it could be argued that it is our energy consumption overall that's unsustainable, whether it be from petrol, coal, nuclear, or almost anything else. The fact is that we can speculate as much as we like - the clock is ticking. Governments across Europe, including our own, have set a deadline after which ICE vehicles will no longer be allowed to be sold. Maybe future government's will change their mind, but with popular opinion and voters demanding the push, I consider it unlikely.

Maybe electric vehicles will be able to directly replace petrol cars by then, maybe they won't. Maybe the world will change more than any of us can imagine, just like how the introduction of cars did in the last hundred years. Maybe personal vehicle ownership is simply incompatible with electric vehicles, and we'll all move to cars-as-a-service, getting picked up by little robo-taxis for short journeys and renting long-range fast-charging limos for longer trips. Maybe we won't travel as much, with video conferencing taking over.

I'm very aware that I'm probably a good few years younger than the average Lexus owner, and it's the nature of human beings to scoff and dismiss that things will ever change, despite living in a world that would have been utterly unimaginable just a decade or two ago. I'm grateful to live in an era of fantastic healthcare and the internet, but also wish I'd been able to live in an era of cheap petrol and powerful V8s. I have to accept that this is the world I live in, and I'll either adapt or fall by the wayside as the world moves on. I don't have the imagination to know what the world will look like in 10 or 20 years' time. I don't think any of us can predict the future. But simply saying that electric cars will never catch on rings a little hollow. Just think how many people have said that about pretty much every piece of technology we have ever developed.

On December 2035 the very last petrol-powered car ever will be sold in Britain. Will we all be making do with whatever electric cars have become by that point, with all the legitimate caveats raised in earlier posts becoming unfortunate realities that force us to adapt to a different relationship with personal transportation? Will the government give in, and let everyone continue burning oil and coal until rising sea levels and extreme weather destroy our homes? Or will some soon-to-be-billionaire invent a magical new type of engine that costs the same as a modern petrol engine but requires no fuel and generates no pollutants?

Maybe governments decided that a hard stop was necessary to focus the minds of the engineers. After all, look at the motorcycle world - barely token efforts are being made to develop viable alternatives because no-one is demanding or requiring them. As a result, no turbos, no hybrids, no concern for aerodynamics and an uneducated user-base who think that 45mpg is good for something that has a fraction of the mass of any car. That same user-base loudly proclaims that they will never buy an electric motorcycle, no matter how good they become. My response is that those people probably won't have a choice if they want to keep riding in a couple of decades. We could probably be worlds ahead of where we are in electric vehicle development if we'd started earlier, but no-one was funding the research because it was way easier to make big money selling petrol cars instead.

No - I think we can get there. With the clock ticking and no chance of a reprieve car manufacturers will either find a way to solve these problems or die trying. Either we'll all have cheap long-range wirelessly-charged electric cars, or we'll be living in a world that doesn't travel anywhere near as much as we currently enjoy.

Nick

[Malc]

28 minutes ago, EvilRacer329 said:

On December 2035 the very last petrol-powered car ever will be sold in Britain.

Just to remind everyone that this refers to Brand New ONLY

and we are very likely to have the option of Hydrogen Fuel cell cars by then ..........  non polluting

Malc

[Guest]

Another factor to consider with electric cars is the loss of tax revenue at the petrol pump, it’s one thing to encourage everyone to switch away from petrol/diesel but there will come a point where the government will want to claw back its lost fuel revenue, particularly the state the nations finances are heading toward. You can’t really put a surcharge on electricity prices due to household usage so what will happen? A large tax on vehicles? which if only applied to electric cars would deter demand, or will the tax be increased on petrol/diesel to offset the loss to electric cars.

[Boxbrownie]

48 minutes ago, Derant said:

Another factor to consider with electric cars is the loss of tax revenue at the petrol pump, it’s one thing to encourage everyone to switch away from petrol/diesel but there will come a point where the government will want to claw back its lost fuel revenue, particularly the state the nations finances are heading toward. You can’t really put a surcharge on electricity prices due to household usage so what will happen? A large tax on vehicles? which if only applied to electric cars would deter demand, or will the tax be increased on petrol/diesel to offset the loss to electric cars.

That’s what Smart meters and Smart EVSE home chargers are for.........

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Derant said:

Another factor to consider with electric cars is the loss of tax revenue at the petrol pump, it’s one thing to encourage everyone to switch away from petrol/diesel but there will come a point where the government will want to claw back its lost fuel revenue, particularly the state the nations finances are heading toward. You can’t really put a surcharge on electricity prices due to household usage so what will happen? A large tax on vehicles? which if only applied to electric cars would deter demand, or will the tax be increased on petrol/diesel to offset the loss to electric cars.

A wholesale review of the Taxation system  will be needed. A New way of life means a new way of doing things.

10% tax on all earnings/income however earned/obtained and stop paying people to do nothing would be a good start.

Now, over to the bright sparks on this Forum!

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

That’s what Smart meters and Smart EVSE home chargers are for.........

Do you mean the smart meters that are being rolled out to homes? FWIW I had smart meters installed in March, they still don’t work, I still send meter readings in!!! Genuine question will they be able to tell what you are using electricity for?

[malcolmw]

/Paranoia Mode

Smart meters are really to allow the Government to introduce rationing of electricity when our supplies are insufficient. They can cut you off without the current confrontation face-to-face with a National Grid employee.

/Paranoia Mode off

[Linas.P]

On 10/30/2020 at 10:59 AM, PaulWhitt20 said:

or keep to a petrol car and try not to think of the environmental impact.

I would say - it depends on the circumstances. As you have detailed in your post, you have means of owning EV (most people don't). So you can have it if you wanted to and it seems you as well want it. Seems like answer is obvious so far - go for it!

The secondary questions is more related to (1) cost of ownership and (2) environmental impact. The truth here is - the consumerism has much bigger environmental impact than driving petrol car, so if you really want to be a friend of the planet, then the best move would be not to upgrade the car as long as you can. If the started to keep the cars fro 10-20 years instead o of current 3-5 years, the emission reduction would be far greater than if everyone would switch electric. The only time when EV is greener for the planet is if you don't currently have car, so you buying it regardless or if you current car is in such bad state that it is environmental hazard, that you have to replace it (in which case replacing it with EV will be long term greener than another ICE).

Why? Because resources were already wasted to build your current car and CO2 was already generated, unless you car is some monster gas-guzzler it really has minor impact in comparison which building brand new car (no matter if it is EV or ICE.. EV being actually much much worse). Again as example it is better fro planet if you buy reasonably economical ICE and rive it for 10 years instead of you getting "greeen" EV and replacing it every 3 years.

So don't be ashamed of driving ICE!

[Barry14UK]

A few posts back it was stated that not much had been done to produce electric motor cycles but this is not quite so.  There are electric motor cycles and scooters that can be purchased in the UK with even Harley-Davidson now having an offing. Clearly the electrical requirement for these machines is far less than for cars but nevertheless will become greater over time.  There is even a race for electric motor cycles in the Isle of Man at the TT races as 2 wheel enthusiasts will be aware.  They can be pretty quick but the problem is of course lack of Battery capacity, so electric 2 wheelers may also compete for a charging station. https://www.motorcyclenews.com/advice/best/electric-motorbikes/#:~:text=The best electric motorcycles in,Harley-Davidson Livewire

[Boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Derant said:

Do you mean the smart meters that are being rolled out to homes? FWIW I had smart meters installed in March, they still don’t work, I still send meter readings in!!! Genuine question will they be able to tell what you are using electricity for?

Yes, the new Smart home chargers will be able to cross communicate with supplier Smart meters and know exactly when and how much juice you are using to fill your EV.

Obviously presently there are still issues, especially with Smart meters......rolled out too soon with too little development, but give it time.