IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Overland]

Discussing with my dealer, several things come up that I did not know and that maybe can make you think

His best proposal would be to upgrade to an RC F-Sport or an ES Luxury if I want to maintain the level of options I have now installed on my IS300H, i.e. sunroof, Mark Levinson, triple LED headlights.

However, he told me to evaluate the two aspects well because they are totally different cars (and I had come to this too!) Explaining that only the RC could be defined as a "real" Lexus of the generation in which Lexus designed cars with a certain type. of "avant-garde mentality", while the ES is a car that would be nothing more than a "copy" of the Toyota Camry and which, although an excellent car in terms of design and comfort, uses "more obsolete" engineering solutions, citing for example the suspension, the responsiveness of the engine, which would be rather slow and so on.

The ES essentially, according to the mechanic, as well as the NX and the UX would be Toyota "disguised" as Lexus.

Are we then to the point that Lexus offers a high-end sedan that would be a Camry with a different "dress"? Can anyone tell me if this statement makes sense?

In addition to this he told me that I could only buy the RC that he has in the salon, because (as can be seen from the Italian Lexus website) RC and IS can no longer be ordered from today.

So we are already in the full title of this topic, how is the situation in the UK, can you still order the iS300H?

[Linas.P]

35 minutes ago, Overland said:

Explaining that only the RC could be defined as a "real" Lexus of the generation

The ES essentially, according to the mechanic, as well as the NX and the UX would be Toyota "disguised" as Lexus.

Are we then to the point that Lexus offers a high-end sedan that would be a Camry with a different "dress"? Can anyone tell me if this statement makes sense?

So we are already in the full title of this topic, how is the situation in the UK, can you still order the iS300H?

If that is the case it is extremely poor generation - for example NX feels like "generation" never despite being same model year car. Especially, when considering technology (which seems touchy topic here) the NX has literally next-gen technology compared to more expensive RC and I cannot explain it - it just doesn't make sense.

Lexus NX is literally Toyota RAV4, and UX is Toyota C-HR... Lexus ES is not Camry, rather comparable with Toyota Avalon. This is nothing new for Lexus as well - from the begging it was rebadged Toyota with only notable exception being LS, which was always Lexus exclusive. Before ~2003 all models where shared as well - Lexus IS = Toyota Altezza and GS = Aristo, ES = Avalon/Camry. From around 2004 Lexus had period where it existed as independent brand with dedicated models - IS (mk2 and 3)  and GS (mk3 and 4). Yes It could be said that RC is the last "true Lexus" and not shared platform, but I am not sure it is a good thing.

As far as I am aware in UK you cannot "custom" order IS, RC and GS anymore. You can only buy cars from existing stock, meaning you can still buy new car but cannot customise it to your order. They still have limited models listed in their website e.g. they have only RC F-Sport, but nothing else, and my suspicion is that if you try to order one they simply going to tell you what is already in country... if you lucky they may have something matching exactly or similar. Same for IS - they have entry level ("luxury") and F-sport. GS is not even on the site anymore from early 2020/late 2019.

Finally, yes RC for all intended purposes being basically ~ coupe version of IS is probably the closest experience you could have. Sadly, even too close as you will literally get technology which was available in EOL IS mk3, compared to other models which were updated in line with IS mk4.

[Overland]

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

If that is the case it is extremely poor generation - for example NX feels like "generation" never despite being same model year car. Especially, when considering technology (which seems touchy topic here) the NX has literally next-gen technology compared to more expensive RC and I cannot explain it - it just doesn't make sense.

Lexus NX is literally Toyota RAV4, and UX is Toyota C-HR... Lexus ES is not Camry, rather comparable with Toyota Avalon. This is nothing new for Lexus as well - from the begging it was rebadged Toyota with only notable exception being LS, which was always Lexus exclusive. Before ~2003 all models where shared as well - Lexus IS = Toyota Altezza and GS = Aristo, ES = Avalon/Camry. From around 2004 Lexus had period where it existed as independent brand with dedicated models - IS (mk2 and 3)  and GS (mk3 and 4). Yes It could be said that RC is the last "true Lexus" and not shared platform, but I am not sure it is a good thing.

As far as I am aware in UK you cannot "custom" order IS, RC and GS anymore. You can only buy cars from existing stock, meaning you can still buy new car but cannot customise it to your order. They still have limited models listed in their website e.g. they have only RC F-Sport, but nothing else, and my suspicion is that if you try to order one they simply going to tell you what is already in country... if you lucky they may have something matching exactly or similar. Same for IS - they have entry level ("luxury") and F-sport. GS is not even on the site anymore from early 2020/late 2019.

Thanks for your reply.

So even the IS it can be called an original "Toyota" model just dress like a Lexus, good to know.

Concerning technology, I understand your point t on the NX, that is probably more advanced of the IS and RC and this come back us to the beginning: what could be the choice for those who doesn't like SUV? That simply cannot afford a LS or a LC?

I think at the, the answer would be: ES

And this brought us to a question? Is any ES worth the money? Reading even in this forum it seems the car is not much appreciated by the customers and this is exactly what blown my mid: why?

Why Lexus put on the market a car with this low level of success and appreciation?

May we expect in a couple of year they dismiss also the ES because they "don't sell"?


 

[Linas.P]

20 minutes ago, Overland said:

I think at the, the answer would be: ES

And this brought us to a question? Is any ES worth the money? Reading even in this forum it seems the car is not much appreciated by the customers and this is exactly what blown my mid: why?

Why Lexus put on the market a car with this low level of success and appreciation?

May we expect in a couple of year they dismiss also the ES because they "don't sell"?

That is certainly what Lexus would be excited to hear! They hope owners going to be like "oh it is £3000 more expensive and FWD, and mostly feels like Toyota but it is perfect for me!"

Yes they introduced ES as combined replacement for GS and IS. I outright consider ES inferior to both, I have particular issue with FWD and will never buy FWD car, but I appreciate that with power level in 300h the driving wheels do not matter than much. 

Again that is my personal opinion, but I test drove ES and it was "ok" if not somewhat "underwhelming". The interior is rather dull and even the quality of materials was in my opinion cheap, accidentally I drove 2019 Auris just few days ago and most of the plastics and controls felt at that level. It felt more like "posh Toyota" rather than Lexus. Don't forget that ES is originally Amurican model so it has that feeling of "big car without pretence to handle". The handling is not bad, but it is never inspiring - it feels like you better of just comfortably cruising in this car and not taking fast corners etc. I called it "perfect taxi" back then... and I still think it is accurate - great for passengers, not inspiring for driver.

ES is not inherently bad car (well it is for me due to FWD), but at the price of GS300h it is simply inferior to it and being -£3000-4000 more expensive than IS it doesn't offer much. Yes it has more space in the back (I do not care) and it has bigger boot. Yes it is more advanced technologically, but that is just given considering it is new car - IS mk4 is as well better than mk3.

Many will disagree with me here, but I feel ES will definitely fail in Europe. It is proven car and will continue to sell well in US, but it is distinctly non-European whereas IS/GS were distinctly European models. I guess it is ok for Lexus, because it is far cheaper to build than GS, especially in the higher worldwide numbers. Although, that said - if they still producing IS mk4 worldwide I do not understand their logic no to ship it to Europe... it is plainly stupid. I am somehow sure that IS would sell better than ES in Europe. What their bet is in anybodies guess... 

[Charlie Alder]

Anyone who has owned a Lexus for any length of time (me 16 years) must know the company is not what it was in terms of product provided and quality of service provided by dealers. When I eventually changed my IS200 for a CT albeit Premier I realized what I already guessed, quality of product not so good. With that in mind I knew that the UX I changed the CT for was basicallt mostly Toyota and sad to say rather cheaply put together despite being a Lexus. Basically brought the UX because I did not like the CHR. Rear end looks like a crumpled piece of paper. Why did I buy another Lexus if I knew all this? Good question I keep asking my self. Willing suspension of disbelief my be in what Lexus as a brand has become. Having said all that the CT was a good, economical, reliable car the 3 years I had it. Told the salesman at Cambridge last February that I would not be suprised if Lexus  pulled out of Europe in what 5 to 10 years. That was before the announcement to stop importing the CT, IS etc. Only hope Toyota/ Lexus  have got something up their sleeve and will suprise us all.

[Overland]

1 minute ago, Charlie Alder said:

Told the salesman at Cambridge last February that I would not be suprised if Lexus  pulled out of Europe in what 5 to 10 years. That was before the announcement to stop importing the CT, IS etc. Only hope Toyota/ Lexus  have got something up their sleeve and will suprise us all.

😞

[dutchie01]

If the new IS would come to Europe i would buy it next year. I really would, i like the new look the wider stance, great looking car and RWD.

[Linas.P]

30 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

If the new IS would come to Europe i would buy it next year. I really would, i like the new look the wider stance, great looking car and RWD.

I agree, it seems like they finally nailed their design language with new IS - it looks recognisable, original, yet modern. I actually have reservations regarding interior - not instantly apparent what you getting over mk3. Either way, I think that if any car has any chances coming selling in Europe it would be IS, but it has to compete with BMW and MB on price if Lexus wants it to succeed (by compete, I mean be 5-10% cheaper for same engine/specification).

I said that million times, but here is one million and one - they as well need to have more engine options - IS200h, IS200t, IS250, IS300h, IS350, IS450h and IS-F. You cannot just have IS300h and expect it to be competitive in whole market against say BMW 318i, 320i, 320d, 325d, 330i, 330d, 340i, and M3... just not gonna happen!

[dutchie01]

Hmmm, i dont think the IS is up to the new 3 series. It is an old design and even with the engines you mention it will not stand a chance of luring customers out of their bmws. The 200t is too thirsty and too dirty, the 300H will go head on with the 330e plug in, the 250 has no power, too thirsty and old. the 350 will go head on with the 340 which will not go well and the new M# will drive circles around the ISF. The new IS will have to be sold on exclusivity and design alone which implies low sales. Maybe it is understandable they dont bring the IS to Europe. Apparently no business case.      

[Linas.P]

I think 300e (EV) should go against 330e (PHEV), but Lexus has to make it competitive. As well they missed the by not making 300h PHEV from the day they introduced mk3, or at least as FL option. Either way, I think the cost is key here - if Lexus could sell 300h F-Sport with LSS+ for £34,000 they are in the game as at this point it would go against 320d or represent £3-4k discount over 330i/330d. But for £41k - it is non-starter, because for that price you can get 330e, which is not only genuinely fast, but as well get's government grant, is congestion except, could park in EV places and has even lower tax, initial surcharge etc.

250, needs update, same as 350 got - Atkinson cycle, maybe port injection, 8 speed box - if they can push 240hp from it and reduce emissions it is still in the game. But yes I agree either 200t/250 would do, they fill similar niche. Unless somehow Lexus can make 200t significantly cheaper. But that means 200t would have to sell for £29k, as BMW already sells their entry level 320i ~ 33k.

I feel IS200h (the drive-train from UX) would be the profit maker (terrible car thought), if they can genuinely sell it cheap there is huge market for people who don't care about performance and just want "cool looking" car for as cheap as they can get it on Lease. Just look how many MB C-class are entry level C180/C200d. Again, the point is  - Lexus is not recognised brand in Europe, so they cannot charge premium over BMW or MB, they need to consistently come under their price and over years build the reputation. In US they already have reputation, but they still very comparatively priced there, I don't understand how they can justify charging premium over established brands in Europe - that could never work.

 

[Overland]

All good ideas for IS...

But I doubt that we will see here in EU/UK

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Overland said:

All good ideas for IS...

But I doubt that we will see here in EU/UK

All the engine option - definitely not. But I still feel maybe they eventually going to replace (definite failure) ES with IS mk4 FL, but we may need to wait even until IS mk5.

I don't have ES itself as a car, if they would make it  same just RWD and maybe with little bit more potent engine, I can see how it could replaced GS.

[Overland]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

All the engine option - definitely not. But I still feel maybe they eventually going to replace (definite failure) ES with IS mk4 FL, but we may need to wait even until IS mk5.

I don't have ES itself as a car, if they would make it  same just RWD and maybe with little bit more potent engine, I can see how it could replaced GS.

I have the same idea.

But when I have talk with the dealer he strongly tell me that despite the fact the ES has some characters that we could be not call properly "Lexus" as the suspensions (but I don't know what is the difference with IS) he is advance on  a number of different aspect: the MY2021 will have Lithium Battery that will be a great improvement, new infotainment (but not explained how) and a more features  like the LSS+ 2.0 (He it tell me: blind spot monito, rear camera, automatic lights and so on... I have all this stuff in my IS300H MY2017 so I don't understand what is this 2.0 upgrade, did he means that they was not available till today in ES? I can't believe).

When I saw the ES in person, personally I did not find it cheaper or poor towards my IS, I found them on the same level.

Surely, I agree of those who said is not sport car, power or a kind of racer cars... I think is a luxury sedan for people that want to travel in a safely car, relatively luxury and beautiful to see.

The big problem is that on the market it seems this car has not success sin EU, the dealer tell me they just sell very few units, while US/NX should be calculate in terms of tenths per month... so I asking: "what do you think: maybe Lexus in a couple of year will withdrawn the ES from Italian market?"

He said: I don't have any info, but if they calculate the existence on market based on how many pieces they sell, if they withdrawn without hesitation IS and RC that was more successful.... I can imagine the ES will not have a long life here.

🥶

[Beduffshirl]

22 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Yes you are correct, they are using you as test dummy when testing new and unproven (level 2) technology. I am almost certain that Toyota/Lexus has similar if not the same technology (Audi - meaning entire VAG group, certainly has level3 ), however their view is that they cannot afford to risk their clients life "live-testing" this feature.

You have copied several videos Tesla "driving itself", but again - this leaves me unmoved and unimpressed. Tesla autopilot is simply tech-demo and what it does simply irrelevant. Yes Lexus LSS+ can't make a left turn, but it does not matter as long as the car needs me to be behind the wheel fit for driving. 

In summary, what is shown in your video is tech-demo gimmick which does not help me in real life at all. I know here you say - yes but Elon said we will get level 5 update "over the air" soon. Sorry buddy - Elon lied (again!).

I wan't to drive the Car. Not sit there and let the computer do it

[Beduffshirl]

One point maybe being missed here is that the UK and EU are massively different in one significant aspect.

We drive on the same side as the Japanese!!!

Why can't we just have the same cars the Japanese do?

[Linas.P]

53 minutes ago, Beduffshirl said:

I wan't to drive the Car. Not sit there and let the computer do it

I prefer that too, but I agree that there are utility in car being able to completely drive itself (without driver being in it, or driver being incapacitated in some way). So I only see 2 ways:

1. As long as I am required to be behind the wheel "autopilot" is pointless, if I behind the wheel I will drive myself. Driver conveniences like LSS+ are nice addition because sometimes radar cruise control is good thing, and automatic braking can save you from disaster. However, things like Tesla "autopilot" is pointless gimmick - where is fun looking at AI "learning", cannot really see anything more boring than that. 

2. Full autonomous driving is cool... because I can drive to the party and simply ask my car to take me back home. Or say I am going to central London where parking is not available, I can drive right to the doorstep of where I am going and ask car to drive away and find parking maybe 5 miles away where it is cheap or free. It is like have personal taxi or chauffeur. This is nice utility as I no longer need to use Taxi or stinking public transport.

59 minutes ago, Beduffshirl said:

One point maybe being missed here is that the UK and EU are massively different in one significant aspect.

 The side we drive on is an aspect, but it is not really relevant here - the environmental protection standards and to some degree culture in UK is more like in EU (In terms of standard identical) and less like in Japan. 

1 hour ago, Overland said:

When I saw the ES in person, personally I did not find it cheaper or poor towards my IS, I found them on the same level.

And this means ES is cheaper and poorer. If you take BMW 3 Series and compare one generation to another, they won't be on the same level. If the car which is generation newer and half-class higher and more expensive feels like on "just on same level", then it isn't good. Don't forget it as well costs more like GS and meant to replace GS... and it is not on the same level as GS!

Further, don't forget ES is not in the market competing against mk3 IS... it is in the market competing with cars like Audi A5, BMW 4 GC, WV Arteon,  and on higher-end Mercedes CLS, Audi A7. 4-Door coupes are already niche market and with it's sole 300h engine it barely targets 5% of that market and even there are more competitive options. Lexus claims it goes against BMW-5 and MB E-Class are just funny... if not little bit sad. No it is not - it is outclassed and has literally no place next to BMW 5 or MB E... just different league alltogether.

I tend to believe they will keep ES until for whole generation before withdrawing like GS, at very earliest they may drop it before FL. Meaning we will sadly have it here here for at least 5-6 years. 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Beduffshirl said:

One point maybe being missed here is that the UK and EU are massively different in one significant aspect.

We drive on the same side as the Japanese!!!

Why can't we just have the same cars the Japanese do?

The new Trade Agreement with Japan might be able to address that point ?

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

The new Trade Agreement with Japan might be able to address that point ?

How? Even before we could import Japanese cars, we had many Japanese owned factories - if they would be compliant and if there would be demand for same cars as in Japan we would already have them. Tariffs for Japanese imports have not reduced with new deal, compared to being in EU.

And I am not politicising this issue at all, I am just saying that compared to previous UK situation with EU-Japan trade and current direct UK-Japan trade agreement - nothing has changed in terms of conditions for Japanese cars being made or imported to UK.

If anything it just became worse - previously Japan could certify cars for EU as a whole, now they will need to certify for EU and UK separately. Now it sounds like this means UK can have different cars from EU (and that is partially true), but reality is that we just going to have less cars. Because where you could justify certifying car for market like EU, it is much harder to justify certification for small market like UK.

So I think the story is going to be more like 300h, we will get car models, but we will get only the most boring type of it which is most likely to sell in big numbers. And will get less "exciting" models which sells in low numbers. Previously it was just Lexus, but in future I believe it will be the case whit many more brands.

Just my opinion thought - if there are fact proving me wrong I would like to hear them.

[Linas.P]

22 hours ago, Linas.P said:

notable exception being LS, which was always Lexus exclusive.

Sorry, completely forgotten about Toyota Celsior which is = Lexus LS. Although in this case it is Lexus rebadged as Toyota in domestic Japanese market, rather the than other way around. So I guess my claim that LS has always been the exclusively Lexus car is still correct. This is opposite from all other models which until ~2005 have been based on rebadged Toyotas. As already mentioned IS mk2/3 (and 4), GS mk3/4 and RC + LC were as well true Lexus.

That said I don't mind Lexus just being more fancy rebadged Toyota - as long as it provides the additional value Lexus nameplate costs. I don't fee this is case case in NX, UX nor ES.

[Overland]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Sorry, completely forgotten about Toyota Celsior which is = Lexus LS. Although in this case it is Lexus rebadged as Toyota in domestic Japanese market, rather the than other way around. So I guess my claim that LS has always been the exclusively Lexus car is still correct. This is opposite from all other models which until ~2005 have been based on rebadged Toyotas. As already mentioned IS mk2/3 (and 4), GS mk3/4 and RC + LC were as well true Lexus.

That said I don't mind Lexus just being more fancy rebadged Toyota - as long as it provides the additional value Lexus nameplate costs. I don't fee this is case case in NX, UX nor ES.

From what I know the rebadging is not a sign of lower quality products, but a sign two different target and prices.

Using the same platform Toyota decide to launch two products for two different customers.

One is more convenient, because it is branded Toyota.
The other, with higher specs in term of details, interior care, materials and maybe some little technical improvement with Lexus brand, and of course the value of the "logo", that is an intangible value, for an higher price.
I have no problem with that, to be honest..

The question is: when we say (e.g.): the NX is a RAV4 rebadged so it is NOT a TRUE Lexus, why an ES that is a rebadged Camry is not a true Lexus?

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, Overland said:

I have no problem with that, to be honest..

The question is: when we say (e.g.): the NX is a RAV4 rebadged so it is NOT a TRUE Lexus, why an ES that is a rebadged Camry is not a true Lexus?

The answer: The other, with higher specs in term of details, interior care, materials and maybe some little technical improvement with Lexus brand, and of course the value of the "logo", that is an intangible value, for an higher price.

Me neither... 

I guess you provided the the answer to your own question there. The makes a car "true Lexus" for me is not the platform it is based on, however I expect things like exclusive interior and exterior design, exclusive build quality and materials, better technology (and more of it), more ergonomic controls and better experience... Overall - just take existing Toyota and improve upon it, to give more luxurious experience.

This is largely the case with Lexus e.g. UX looks and feels much better than Toyota CH-R and I am sure the dealership experience is better as well. However, that is not always the case e.g.

RAV4 now has never and better hybrid system than NX... that is not acceptable considering NX is more expensive car and Lexus is more premium brand. This is typical - "less for more" issue. 

ES just overall does not feel that much better than last gen IS mk3 and based on some reviews I seen from US, not much better than Avalon. In US Avalon is apparently $6000 cheaper and people are questioning the rationale to have Lexus considering ES not being major improvement.

So that is where rebandging is an issue - if $6000 does not buy me anything of value, then Lexus badge does not have add value either. If I literally missing out by getting NX, then Toyota badge on RAV4 becomes actually more valuable (objectively). 

[dutchie01]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Full autonomous driving is cool... because I can drive to the party and simply ask my car to take me back home. Or say I am going to central London where parking is not available, I can drive right to the doorstep of where I am going and ask car to drive away and find parking maybe 5 miles away where it is cheap or free. It is like have personal taxi or chauffeur. This is nice utility as I no longer need to use Taxi or stinking public transport.

 I think it will be the other way around. One day selfdriving cars will appear and that will completely flip the automotive market upside down. Car architecture will change dramatically no need for steeringwheels pedals or even dashboards. A box or cubicle will do and guess what logo will be on the side? Uber and friends. No need to own your own pod as you simply call one within minutes you get in and when you leave again do thesame. This could transform car ownership as , outside of a hobby V8 classic, there will be no need whatsoever to OWN a car. You can have one driving up to your door within minutes!    

 

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

You can have one driving up to your door within minutes!    

I call that Taxi... 

Sorry, I just quoted "punchline", but that is the key for me. Generally I actually agree with you, hence my prediction than in future the looks of the car won't matter - they will be cubicles on wheels with focus to make interior better. Shift is already happening - instead of beautiful coupes people choose to get ugly SUVs... 

However, you will need to wait at least until my generation dies out to fully appreciate this change (and I am from that forever blamed generation called millennials!). So we talking at very least 40+ years from now.

I simply do not appreciate the "vehicle as a service" model - no I do not give a **** that I don't need to own it and I could just call it. Again I can call uber nowadays and that is for all intended purposes the same. You can even choose between uber standard (shared), plus or premium which will determine what type of car will pick you up. The only difference is that in future you won't need to talk with driver which may be positive or negative thing depending on your perspective.

Car ownership is very special thing for me, where I have to own the car, which looks right inside, outside, with very particular interior colour and very particular tyres and rims, and it has to have particular features and particular audio system and smell in particular way (certainly not to smell the sweat or vomit of the previous user). So this claim that - "you simply simply call it and it appears" does not work for me. Yes it is fine if I can call it an it appears, but it must be my car, not just publicly shared toilet/sink/bed/cubicle "thing".

[Thackeray]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

RAV4 now has never and better hybrid system than NX... that is not acceptable considering NX is more expensive car and Lexus is more premium brand.

When I was first thinking of getting a Lexus I was talking to a dealer about the features on the car. I think it might have been about the foot-operated parking brake and I asked why it didn't have the electronic brake the Auris had. He said Toyota/Lexus always tries out new features/technology for a long time on the Toyotas first. Only when they're absolutely certain they're pretty well faultless and completely reliable do they put them onto the Lexus range. I was never very sure whether he was right about this but maybe it's true.

I have the impression Mercedes does it the other way round. All the new features are put on the S class. It doesn't matter if the nearly new car has to go to the dealer to have the new feature fixed because it will be done on the warranty and the car will be taken to the dealer by the chauffeur. The owner doesn't get troubled by this at all. Or maybe that's the philosophy.

[Linas.P]

@Thackeray - Yes that is a "theory" of what Lexus does and may have actually been truth a decade ago. Nowadays, I simply struggling to see relevance in their models as they cannot compete neither against their real competitors, nor even their "value sister brand" Toyota.

Yes you are absolutely right about MB, it is not always the case for every model, but they always debut the new tech in S-Class and then it tricycles down the range.

Now... both ways have their own advantages, but in summary I expect Lexus which costs 20% more to have more features then Toyota. Should they be carefully tested and extremely reliable - absolutely! But it cannot be the case that with RAV4 you get more power + better economy and newer sat-nav with Android auto+Apple car play and in £4k more expensive NX you get none of that (applies to ~2018 model). In such case what you paying extra for? Literally for just a badge?

Going back all the way to Lexus IS mk2 what extra you getting was obvious... comparable car in Toyota range was Avensis... and for ~ £6k-£8k more you were getting substantial upgrade - more beautiful, RWD instead of FWD, interior built literally on different level, as standard - keyless entry, cooled and heated seat, electronically folding mirrors, more powerful engines... I mean list of extra features was like 60 items long. Not only that you were getting more, you could not even get those options on Toyota even if you pay more. Lexus IS mk2 in was a "real Lexus" in my opinion. I used to joke - "when you take Lexus owner manual you read about the features you have in your car, but when you take Toyota manual you read about the features you have missing in your car". That is no longer the case.

Look at ES today - it is literally Avalon with different face - yes it apparently has more premium materials inside, but you can see the guy is struggling to recommend ES over Avalon. And even if the Lexus claim would be true i.e. that they try new features in Toyota first. Then this is proof they are just lying - Avalon and ES launched at the same time with exactly the same features: