IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[royoftherovers]

32 minutes ago, Martin J said:

I also think the Tesla approach is ergonomically poor. This case got some attention a little while ago:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53666222

I wonder whether the Tesla dash design philosophy is driven by minimalist aesthetics or cost - is it cheaper to stick an iPad on the dash?

If this case remains on the books, Tesla will not be able to obtain a European Certificate of Conformity for European models ?

[Thackeray]

2 hours ago, Mincey said:

I'd rather have a levers and buttons to control the functions in my car than a touchscreen. I don't want to wade through a series of menus to change the direction of airflow of the air vents.

It may just be because I'm an old luddite though.

No, it's not because you're a Luddite; it's because touch-screens are just impractical when driving.

There's a general problem about new technology that people think it's great just because it's new. You just need to take a step back to realise that it may be quite useful but you don't have to use it all the time. Here are some examples:

Around the 1960s the first zoom lenses began to appear on film cameras. Suddenly, directors were incorporating dramatic zooms into all kind of inappropriate scenes - just because they could. Better sometimes to stick to the simple shots.

In the 1970s, digital watches made an appearance. But the display was those red LED numbers which used a lot of power, so you had to press a button to display the time. How was that more convenient than just looking at your ordinary "old-fashioned" analogue watch?

It may have been around the 1980s when hi-fi manufacturers decided it would be really cool to have sliders to control volume, tuning, tone and so-on. But sliders are always more awkward to use than the old-fashioned volume knobs that had been standard on radios for 50 odd years. You can't control sliders delicately the way you can a volume knob held between finger and thumb. Better to stick to the more ergonomically sound (and yes old-fashioned if you like) way.

Then car makers began to introduce sliders on their heating controls. Volvo updated some of its models that previously had easy to use circular controls and replaced them with hard to use sliders. (I expect the marketing department insisted.)

I've already complained elsewhere in this forum about the touch sliders on the IS300h for the cabin temperature. I now realise they incorporate two bad features! -  1 they're sliders and 2. they're touch sensitive, so you can't use them without looking at them. (How does a blind passenger set the temperature?)

Back to films and the latest fad is drone footage. Just because you can - so the director thinks it must be great. We will look back at these films and wonder why they are constantly doing shots from the sky? Oh yes, because around 2020 it was the latest thing and people thought it was really cool, just like digital LED watches or sliders on hi-fi controls.

So why are touch-screen controls on cars such a bad idea? Because you can't control them without looking at and touching the screen. This is really inconvenient compared with traditional controls you can operate without looking at them. Not to mention dangerous if you're actually driving at the time.

Here endeth the rant.

[royoftherovers]

Excellent rant William.

The next Sermon should be worth listening to too !

[NemesisUK]

Voice control is the answer!

 

(I heard that!...Pardon? 🤣

 

[Linas.P]

@Thackeray - excellent post, good examples as well,

I suggest for any "Tesla fans wanabees" to do proper test drive. I have extended one in P100D and quick spin in Model 3 as well.

I would agree that when you sit in the car for first time on the dealership floor the screen is quite impressive. I am not going to repeat myself about many things which are actually very disappointing, but the screen is not one of them. It is genuinely impressive. 

But then try to drive it and go through the set steps... if my memory serves I tried to connect to my phone (which you should not do when driving!), set destination, change destination and set temperature on climate control. I was unable to do any of these steps when driving. I have completed most when stopped by the traffic lights, but I have to stop separately on the side of the road to connect my phone (to be fair Lexus needs this as well).

In short no matter how impressive the display looks in stationary car, is is fairly awkward to use when driving.

[Mincey]

57 minutes ago, Thackeray said:

 

I've already complained elsewhere in this forum about the touch sliders on the IS300h for the cabin temperature. I now realise they incorporate two bad features! -  1 they're sliders and 2. they're touch sensitive, so you can't use them without looking at them. (How does a blind passenger set the temperature?)

+1!!!

Interesting on first use, annoying as anything thereafter. It's up and down buttons or a knob for me any day. I realise that came out badly, but you know what I mean.

[Spacewagon52]

1 hour ago, Thackeray said:

No, it's not because you're a Luddite; it's because touch-screens are just impractical when driving.

There's a general problem about new technology that people think it's great just because it's new. You just need to take a step back to realise that it may be quite useful but you don't have to use it all the time. Here are some examples:

Around the 1960s the first zoom lenses began to appear on film cameras. Suddenly, directors were incorporating dramatic zooms into all kind of inappropriate scenes - just because they could. Better sometimes to stick to the simple shots.

In the 1970s, digital watches made an appearance. But the display was those red LED numbers which used a lot of power, so you had to press a button to display the time. How was that more convenient than just looking at your ordinary "old-fashioned" analogue watch?

It may have been around the 1980s when hi-fi manufacturers decided it would be really cool to have sliders to control volume, tuning, tone and so-on. But sliders are always more awkward to use than the old-fashioned volume knobs that had been standard on radios for 50 odd years. You can't control sliders delicately the way you can a volume knob held between finger and thumb. Better to stick to the more ergonomically sound (and yes old-fashioned if you like) way.

Then car makers began to introduce sliders on their heating controls. Volvo updated some of its models that previously had easy to use circular controls and replaced them with hard to use sliders. (I expect the marketing department insisted.)

I've already complained elsewhere in this forum about the touch sliders on the IS300h for the cabin temperature. I now realise they incorporate two bad features! -  1 they're sliders and 2. they're touch sensitive, so you can't use them without looking at them. (How does a blind passenger set the temperature?)

Back to films and the latest fad is drone footage. Just because you can - so the director thinks it must be great. We will look back at these films and wonder why they are constantly doing shots from the sky? Oh yes, because around 2020 it was the latest thing and people thought it was really cool, just like digital LED watches or sliders on hi-fi controls.

So why are touch-screen controls on cars such a bad idea? Because you can't control them without looking at and touching the screen. This is really inconvenient compared with traditional controls you can operate without looking at them. Not to mention dangerous if you're actually driving at the time.

Here endeth the rant.

They key word is ergonomics. Having to look away from the road for more than a second is not ideal. It is common sense to have a device that gives you instant control without taking your eyes off the road. A round knob delivers extremely well. A bank of identical switches looks good but is NOT ergonomically friendly. Look at beer taps in pubs!

[ganzoom]

7 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Ganzoom.  I am really interested to hear what is drawing you towards Tesla.

Initially very simple, a Model S/X was the only way I could access to a quick car without paying £££ in maintenance/running costs. If I didn't get our Tesla I would have bought a M5/XJ super sport and even considered a IS-F, but once you factor in the crazy cheap running costs EVs are like having your cake and eating it. Since getting the car tough I've just been blown away by the tech, and the way Tesla are just pushing the envelop interms of software development. I've never owned a car quite like it, yes its not been reliable but that is a very small price to pay to own what is the best car I've come across by a country mile.

Car for me are far more than numbers or cost, the biggest job any car has to be able to achieve is bring a smile to my face every time I get in, and our Tesla does that job better than anything. Very very occasionally in life you come across something that just makes things more interesting, you cannot describe it, you cannot properly measure it, but everyone knows it when you come across it. 

The only car I would replace our Tesla with right now is a possibly a Porsche Taycan, but actually since seeing the latest Tesla FSD am not even sure of that, not forgetting the £95K price of the Taycan for what is essentially a 2+2 coupe. For a family SUV, our X delivers a very special ownership experience which nothing else on the road can come close to, at any price point. 

I've owned many cars in my time so far, there are only two though which I would say I have 'loved' my old DC2 Teg and now our X - Both these cars generate an emotional response for me every time I get in them, that is feeling is what you would call 'priceless'. If I can persuade my wife, my next personal car purchase would almost certainly be another DC2 Teg to weekend 🥰 to complement our X for day to day family work. 

[ganzoom]

41 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

They key word is ergonomics. Having to look away from the road for more than a second is not ideal. It is common sense to have a device that gives you instant control without taking your eyes off the road. A round knob delivers extremely well. A bank of identical switches looks good but is NOT ergonomically friendly. Look at beer taps in pubs!

 

Gosh some of you guys are going to have a heart attack when you see the new interior of the S class. Its good Lexus still have some loyal owners who will buy the brand now matter how old fashioned and out dated the products are, at the end of the day its sales that count. The premium car market in 2020 has been squeezed like no other, it will be interesting to see how brands survive over the next few years. I suspect Tesla will out sell Lexus or come very close by the end fo Q4 2020.

2021 will be massive year for everyone, as the world comes out of COVID, I don't think anyone really knows what's coming next, so we'll wait and see!

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Its good Lexus still have some loyal owners who will buy the brand now matter how old fashioned and out dated the products are

I would rather say - it is good there brands like Lexus which don't just jump into stupid fashion trends without considering end user experience. The physical button vs. touchscreen discussion is not about being old fashioned or brand loyalty - it is about factual user experience and ergonomics.

22 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Model X was the only way I could access to a quick car without paying £££ in maintenance/running costs.

Sure enough, all work was done by warranty so you haven't spend much of your money on it. I imagine owing it as say ~4years old car outside of warranty. As well consider that your ownership is currently subsidised by government - this is not going to last forever.

The only issue they don't have wide screen TV instead of centre console I guess... 

14 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

I suspect Tesla will out sell Lexus or come very close by the end fo Q4 2020.

This is apples and oranges comparison. Lexus is just luxury subsidiary of Toyota, Tesla is the entire company on it's own - actually they are not even really competitors, which exception of few Toyota/Lexus EVs. 

 

[Overland]

25 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

 

To be honest, and of course in my humble opinion: horrible!

It’s maybe a fake?

Let’s compare with the LF-CC concept I posted earlier.

when you are going to use maxi screen there are only two way:

1. Stay minimal and clean as Tesla

2. Let’s them fully integrated into the consolle like Lexus shown in the LF-CC concept in 2012

Now, come back to reality: 

Why since 2012 Lexus was not able to make just a little step ahead into that direction and still give us a technology of early 2000’s?

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

 

Gosh some of you guys are going to have a heart attack when you see the new interior of the S class. Its good Lexus still have some loyal owners who will buy the brand now matter how old fashioned and out dated the products are, at the end of the day its sales that count. The premium car market in 2020 has been squeezed like no other, it will be interesting to see how brands survive over the next few years. I suspect Tesla will out sell Lexus or come very close by the end fo Q4 2020.

2021 will be massive year for everyone, as the world comes out of COVID, I don't think anyone really knows what's coming next, so we'll wait and see!

Mercedes and reliable electronics is a contradiction in terms. 

[Linas.P]

46 minutes ago, Overland said:

Why since 2012 Lexus was not able to make just a little step ahead into that direction and still give us a technology of early 2000’s?

That is simply not true, as I mentioned many times LSS+ coming standard to all models from 2018 is one of the best safety systems in the market. Full speed radar cruise control, with full braking and acceleration, lane departure with steering assist, blind spot and rear cross traffic alerts. It is not self-driving - but all safety systems you may need until cars become actually autonomous and can drive themselves.

Lexus F-sport dashboard is my favourite on the market although I don't feel Lexus uses full potential on the screen e.g. why can't we have small navigation screen as an alternative to context menu? The only truly missing feature is Android Auto/Apple Car play - but face-lift models in 2020 already has this, so let's say Lexus was late to introduce it but they did it. I even realised that my car has wi-fi hot spot (I wasn't aware of that!).

The only thing I agree with - the centre console on Lexus looks very conservative (some may call it dated). I don't mind the looks, but I would prefer more premium materials (e.g. aluminium buttons and toggles). As well temp adjustment with touch-bar is not ideal but I got used to it. 

I personally liked current E-Class controls - the part highlighted in red are machined aluminium toggle switches - very nice and intuitive to use:

the black plastic buttons below are quite nasty, but they are for features which are less commonly used, so less of an issue.

If you think that Lexus technology is outdated then we need to be specific about it - what exactly you think is missing?!

I can start - 360 degree camera, this is not even available as an option (only NX has it for some weird reason).

 

[dutchie01]

14 hours ago, ganzoom said:

 

 

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I think these 2 pics are a fine example of two different philosophys in car design likely caused by different cultures. The new S class and below the top model from toyota in japan the century. This car is almost twice as expensive as the S class and is all about understated elegance. As the deigners put it @the century gives a message of position and power and not about wealth@.  Germany and Japan. The first showing an incredible high tech overkill with everything visible. Teams are working to give a potential customer an instant shock when he or she opens the door in the showroom, all systems wake up and the wowfactor will contribute heavily to a sale or not. Toyota as conservative as ever having built a reputation of no thrills cars, bland in design and with bulletproof reliability. The century is built in a special factory and all and like the S class has been the pinnacle of the industry for decades ( previous model had a petrol V12). When toyota does not play along with screens and visible high tech ( even the new golf has them now) i think it is out of choice.

question remains for Lexus how long can they keep doing that as the competition just moves on making lexus cars in the showroom outdated?

 

 

 

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[royoftherovers]

I prefer to think of Lexus as the Tortoise in the race.

That S Class seems to be capable of being driven safely only what it is on Autopilot. 

[Mincey]

All of these touchscreens are fine in a passenger aircraft where the pilots don't have to look out of the windows and have the benefit of autopilot (a proper one). In a car, it's surely too much of a distraction. I just want to know where the radio volume knob is, then be able to move my hand to it without taking my eyes of the road or scrolling through a list of menu options. 

[Linas.P]

Toyota Century is only sold in Japan - whereas I appreciate their philosophy and Lexus at some point was inspired by same philosophy as well... I don't think it works outside of Japan.

That said I feel from design perspective new Lexus'es are on par with their competitors (caused some shock with original owners base). On contrary Tesla design is just bland (they call it minimalist thought). 

When it comes to tech again - it may not be in your face on Lexus, but if we look at 2020 line-up I don't really see area where Lexus is specifically behind competition (Tesla is not Lexus competitor, because it is not even Luxury brand).

Now admittedly what happened here - "EV fashion" mostly impacted Luxury car sales. Why?! Because people who could generally afford luxury cars are more affluent, educated and thus more aware about environmental issue + their peers are the same. This means having cheaply build and terrible EV is status symbol for them and they would feel bad driving around in 2.5L V6 "gas-guzzler". Further, everyone knows that Tesla is expensive, the liar Elon does good job hyping it for less smart so we have paradox - a cheaply build EV being perceived by society as luxury and futuristic, whilst any entry-level brand (Dacia, Hyundai, Seat etc.) have far superior build quality and reliability.

Let me just repeat - Tesla has no autonomous driving, their "beta" autopilot is not autonomous and will not be autonomous and not tech in their cars are really that impressive. The only difference from other makers is that Tesla sells their "vision" and allows unfinished products to be used by consumer. In that regard they again are very similar to apple - not only (and surprisingly) they can get away with that, but they even advertise it as advantage - "look how cool we are - we allow you to use unfinished autonomous, but not truly autonomous mode, so that you can risk your life testing it for us... ohhh and we going to give you opportunity to spend £10000 to have this privilege of being free test resource for us!"

1 minute ago, Mincey said:

I just want to know where the radio volume knob is, then be able to move my hand to it without taking my eyes of the road or scrolling through a list of menu options. 

Well, you can still do that in Tesla, as you have control for that on the steering wheel - god forbid "physical buttons"! But then this just proves that massive central screen is useless for driver.

[royoftherovers]

Linas, do be aware of the Law of Libel !

See the 4th line of your 4th para and rephrase.

[Overland]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That is simply not true, as I mentioned many times LSS+ coming standard to all models from 2018 is one of the best safety systems in the market. Full speed radar cruise control, with full braking and acceleration, lane departure with steering assist, blind spot and rear cross traffic alerts. It is not self-driving - but all safety systems you may need until cars become actually autonomous and can drive themselves.

Lexus F-sport dashboard is my favourite on the market although I don't feel Lexus uses full potential on the screen e.g. why can't we have small navigation screen as an alternative to context menu? The only truly missing feature is Android Auto/Apple Car play - but face-lift models in 2020 already has this, so let's say Lexus was late to introduce it but they did it. I even realised that my car has wi-fi hot spot (I wasn't aware of that!).

The only thing I agree with - the centre console on Lexus looks very conservative (some may call it dated). I don't mind the looks, but I would prefer more premium materials (e.g. aluminium buttons and toggles). As well temp adjustment with touch-bar is not ideal but I got used to it. 

I personally liked current E-Class controls - the part highlighted in red are machined aluminium toggle switches - very nice and intuitive to use:

the black plastic buttons below are quite nasty, but they are for features which are less commonly used, so less of an issue.

If you think that Lexus technology is outdated then we need to be specific about it - what exactly you think is missing?!

I can start - 360 degree camera, this is not even available as an option (only NX has it for some weird reason).

 

I don't means Safety technology, as I said they was the first and probably still the better.

I means that if I see the dashboard of a LF-CC and compare to the latest design (in every of the last models, like UX or ES or LS) there's nothing similar.

Yes IS and RC has a great cockpit and interior design I agree, they come form the early LFA concepts, that is great.

What I cannot understand why the infotainment system is made of low resolution small screen (10,3"I have in my IS  it can be called big, but after all, it's not)  and a (now) obsolete "optitron" in the Luxury series, while just the F Sport had the TFT with a very confused and opulent graphic?

HUD was never offered in the IS/RC series, but available in UX, that in my opinion does not make sense as seen that (almost here in Italy) nobody bought any single accessory (I said previously that the target is not prone to spend more money that the basic version)

Details count. and in my opinion to upgraded the dashboard with more technology, e.g. availability of upgrade maps via web and not with the purchase od a memory card for 300€ and so on, would be called "technology improvement".
Appe car and Android auto comes very very later: all the others get them immediatly when apple and Google released, I think is juts a couple of year Lexus offer them.
And not to mention the possibility of an upgrade to the MY2017 IS to use apple Car (I would pay for this!)

 

[Linas.P]

13 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Linas, do be aware of the Law of Libel !

See the 4th line of your 4th para and rephrase.

Is it rather 3rd line you have in mind? Although, Law of Libel only comes into play if I would unreasonable smear persons name. Elon Musk has lied many times on record and has even paid fines for it, so that is unfortunately a fact. He is great businessman and potentially a genius, but I am afraid trustworthy he isn't!

If CNN can do it, then surely I can https://bit.ly/2HNAoXj

6 minutes ago, Overland said:

(1) What I cannot understand why the infotainment system is made of low resolution small screen (10,3"I have in my IS  it can be called big, but after all, it's not)  and a (now) obsolete "optitron" in the Luxury series, while just the F Sport had the TFT with a very confused and opulent graphic?

(2) HUD was never offered in the IS/RC series, but available in UX...

(3) Appe car and Android auto comes very very later: all the others get them immediatly when Apple and Google released, I think is juts a couple of year Lexus offer them.

(4)And not to mention the possibility of an upgrade to the MY2017 IS to use Apple Car (I would pay for this!)

 

(1) I would imagine you have 7/8" screen (not 10.25"). Yes it is dated and since have been replaced with 10.25" which is completely sufficient for intended purpose - see like 10 post above. Large touchscreen in the car is simply bad design ergonomically. Although I do agree, the screen could be higher resolution and graphics could be nicer, but especially smoother. 

(2) not sure what you mean with HUD not offered? Yes you need to go for standard F-Sport to get the digital HUD, but that is the same for all makes. Entry level BMW 3-Series does not have digital HUD, even the latest one launched this year. You cannot expect to take lowest spec. car and get all the gizmos. What is more, even if you upgrade with BMW/MB/Audi etc. I don't think their digital HUD is as good as Lexus. Lexus design is just so much cooler and original. Although it is fairly limited in functionality, but it does what it needs to do in the end of day.

(3) that is not true, some got one but not the other etc. There are still plenty cars without carplay/android auto. Yes Lexus was ~2-3 years late to introduce it in UK (but they introduced it in limited models in US straight away). Either way - as of today 2020 models suppose to have it.

(4) sadly this is not possible on most of the cars, not only Lexus. If they fitted the system which cannot be upgraded, then it means you have to change whole unit, which is not simple software update. Sometimes it is, but often it isn't.

Either way, I think the only reasonable comparison we can make is looking at 2020 Lexus models and comparing them with other brands of same year. When making such comparison I cannot see much of specific features missing. Please let me know if I have missed something major. 

 

[royoftherovers]

No Linas, I do mean the 4th line.

I would advise you to rethink what you have said.

Have a nice day!

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

No Linas, I do mean the 4th line.

I would advise you to rethink what you have said.

Have a nice day!

What I have said in 4th line is factual, but even if it is just my opinion, the Law of libel only protects individuals. So it cannot be applied even if I am "smearing" the brand (hence the confusion). What you have in mind is probably "trade libel" which is when competitor smears other competitor product - again does not apply here as I am individual and not competitor to Tesla. 

Either way, Tesla quality is factually very poor... some of their ideas are great but quality is poor. Certainly worse then any established automaker (ahem ... not sure about JLR thought).

[matt8]

12 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

No Linas, I do mean the 4th line.

I would advise you to rethink what you have said.

Have a nice day!

Different screen sizes mean that text wraps onto a new line at different points, which may change line numbers.

[ganzoom]

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Tesla is not Lexus competitor, because it is not even Luxury brand

I love your logic, your conclusion is right Tesla and Lexus aren't competitor but for the reason you have stated.

Don't forget we own both a Lexus and Tesla, both bought brand new, but now when it comes to choosing our next new car Lexus doesn't even enter the equation.

Show me any Lexus that can do this, and I might have another look - oh and this tech is in a £40k Model 3, so price parity with an IS. 

 

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Show me any Lexus that can do this, and I might have another look - oh and this tech is in a £40k Model 3, so price parity with an IS. 

Yes you are correct, they are using you as test dummy when testing new and unproven (level 2) technology. I am almost certain that Toyota/Lexus has similar if not the same technology (Audi - meaning entire VAG group, certainly has level3 ), however their view is that they cannot afford to risk their clients life "live-testing" this feature.

You have copied several videos Tesla "driving itself", but again - this leaves me unmoved and unimpressed. Tesla autopilot is simply tech-demo and what it does simply irrelevant. Yes Lexus LSS+ can't make a left turn, but it does not matter as long as the car needs me to be behind the wheel fit for driving. 

In summary, what is shown in your video is tech-demo gimmick which does not help me in real life at all. I know here you say - yes but Elon said we will get level 5 update "over the air" soon. Sorry buddy - Elon lied (again!).