IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The only reason Tesla has become a success overnight is because of fiscal stimulation and tax breaks for company car drivers. Take these away and the cars will be unsellable.   

And take the investor hype away and it would be bankrupt overnight. Everyone know that Tesla being priced more than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined is a joke... well actually it is definition of "financial bubble".

As well you spot on on what Toyota is doing. No matter how important and relevant as this point in time EVs market is, it is still very small and Toyota know they cannot sell 11million EVs, they cannot even sell 1million EVs. But they can easily sell most of their current cars as hybrids of PHEVs. When the infrastructure for EVs going to catch-up then Toyota will scale-up their offering for it. There is no point for such giant as Toyota to compete in such a niche market. 

Same can be said about all other major manufacturers, everyone have 1 or 2 mediocre EVs option just to stay relevant for the future and every year they show off concept cars they planning to release once EVs becomes mainstream. That is enough. Them not release EVs is not because they can't, but because they plug the numbers in and it is clear there is no real demand and market yet to make EVs profitable on massive scale.

[dutchie01]

For the German manf it is a different story as they rely heavily on EU sales that are pushed below the 90 grams figure by EU regulation. The fines are horrendous and for instance Vokswagen is expected to receive one next year of over 2 Billion. THATS why they are going all or nothing in EV development, its the only way out. In the next 12 months you will see a bombardment of EVs from VAG, MB and BMW. ( and sneakily the FRENCH are quietly introducing one after the other already!

[dutchie01]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And take the investor hype away and it would be bankrupt overnight. Everyone know that Tesla being priced more than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined is a joke... well actually it is definition of "financial bubble".

Same can be said of most IT or Tech companies. No Past and only promises, never made any money at all. I am old school was taught to look at the profit of the last 10 years then3 years look at company assets and debts do some formulas and finally look at stability of management. That would define the value of a company. Not any longer though. Hey i have a great idea and need 500 million, it will make money very soon! 

 

[Linas.P]

22 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Same can be said of most IT or Tech companies. No Past and only promises, never made any money at all. I am old school was taught to look at the profit of the last 10 years then3 years look at company assets and debts do some formulas and finally look at stability of management. That would define the value of a company. Not any longer though. Hey i have a great idea and need 500 million, it will make money very soon! 

It companies does data mining and they often have their IT business as "loss leader" but their advertising business as money maker. So not exactly comparable to Tesla.

Further, Tesla eventually needs to start making money and government eventually going to stop subsidising EVs. The only thing which Tesla has going is their super-charger network. So my assumption - their cars will be "loss-leader", but their charging infrastructure will be money maker. The only question is whenever EV boom will come early enough to save Tesla.

Re: European makes - I was under impression they 90 grams figure is for EU sales only, and same as for Toyota what happens worldwide should not affect them. Or this counts car specifically made in EU? Either way, they can still go PHEV for many smaller models... like BMW i8 and 330e have some stupid and unrealistic co2 figures 49 and 45 respectively. Whereas realistically, I think they are no better than say 300h which officially does 149.

[ganzoom]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

The only question is whenever EV boom will come early enough to save Tesla.

May be you should read again the title of the thread to get some context:).

Lexus is busy dropping cars from their range because no one is buying them. Yet the Model 3 which is a saloon is so far Teslas best selling car.

If you step away from your hate for EVs your see the market is going in one direction, its taken Lexus 30 years to achieve 700k world wide sales last year. 

Tesla will hit 500k world wide sales this year, what figures do you think Lexus will manage in 2020? Higher to lower?

We are Lexus customers, we bought a brand new IS and I even half considered a brand new RX. But the looking at the market now, I cannot see any reason why we would buy another brand new Lexus.

The only USP Lexus has is reliability, and for us that is not enough to make up for a lack of foward thinking on the technology front. My old Nissan Micra was also just as reliable as our current Lexus, and at £500 much cheaper too, so if reliability does it for you there are much much cheaper options.

Hate EVs, technology, Tesla all you want but you cannot stop progress, and Lexus seems to be as interested in progress as Nokia was in 2007.

[matt8]

Just booked my Model 3 test drive!

It costs nothing to do, 60 seconds online. No pushy salesman sitting next to you whilst you do it. A "contact free" test drive.

It's worth a look. Especially if you appreciate modern technology.

[Overland]

58 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

May be you should read again the title of the thread to get some context:).

Lexus is busy dropping cars from their range because no one is buying them. Yet the Model 3 which is a saloon is so far Teslas best selling car.

If you step away from your hate for EVs your see the market is going in one direction, its taken Lexus 30 years to achieve 700k world wide sales last year. 

Tesla will hit 500k world wide sales this year, what figures do you think Lexus will manage in 2020? Higher to lower?

We are Lexus customers, we bought a brand new IS and I even half considered a brand new RX. But the looking at the market now, I cannot see any reason why we would buy another brand new Lexus.

The only USP Lexus has is reliability, and for us that is not enough to make up for a lack of foward thinking on the technology front. My old Nissan Micra was also just as reliable as our current Lexus, and at £500 much cheaper too, so if reliability does it for you there are much much cheaper options.

Hate EVs, technology, Tesla all you want but you cannot stop progress, and Lexus seems to be as interested in progress as Nokia was in 2007.

Exactly.

This is that sadly truth.

We have an amazing car, it is beautiful, incredibly reliable, at certain moment it was an advanced car, with very special technical solutions especially in safety.

Now, except for the hybrid engine technology, if we talk about safety, design, and mechanical solutions there are many and many other identical solutions, and some will cost so much less.

The only difference it’s the logo.

But sometimes to be part of an exclusive club is not enough.

Personally I disagree totally that Lexus decide EU and UK has a value only for a certain range and prefer to lose historical customers and favor a new generation that probably know nothing of the brand and in few years they will change brand, while since 2004 I have spent 40/50K every three year to stay loyal to the brand.

And we cannot avoid to say that is the lack of knowledge in the vision of the future of cars that drive Toyota in a weird direction.

I really hope to be wrong, in may I have to take a decision and last week when I have try again a Tesla I feel my heartbeat.

I hope the Lexus dealer could convince me that buy a RC could give me the same feeling.

But if he talk just about “drive experience” or steering, suspensions and body... and faster driving and so on I think he will make a mistake.

Even if I am born in the middle of 60’s I am a customer that would try look forward.

And imagine spending again 50K for a car of the old generation it make me upset.

Or probably I will do, who know?

It’s sad that the brand I love stay still why the world is moving fast and a customer has to decide to stay still too.

 

 

 

[Spacewagon52]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

 

Hate EVs, technology, Tesla all you want but you cannot stop progress, and Lexus seems to be as interested in progress as Nokia was in 2007.

I don't hate EV's I have just bought an older hybrid and I am blown away with the 15 year old technology. I appreciate they will be part of the future but so will hydrogen powered vehicles, particularly vans and lorries. Tesla have taken the European motor sales by storm and good for them. All I am suggesting is that other manufacturers will, hopefully, produce better EV solutions. I think we are all lamenting the narrowing of the Lexus offerings in Europe. However, I have a gut feeling that Lexus will produce something quite special in the not too distant future. Infrastructure and technology is changing rapidly. Lithium batteries will be replaced by something much cheaper in the future. 

I love the styling of Tesla, I also love the styling of many Italian and French cars ............ would I buy one? Not today sir! And that goes for Tesla.

Just my view.

 

Just to add, go with Tesla if your company is buying it to give it a go.... BUT if you are spending your OWN money, I would be thinking twice.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Spacewagon52
additional information

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, Overland said:

We have an amazing car, it is beautiful, incredibly reliable, at certain moment it was an advanced car, with very special technical solutions especially in safety. 

This the reason we went for our IS in the first place in 2015. At the time it was simply a better package when compared to the other cars we looked including the XF/XE, 3 series, and C class.

But now though for near price parity, the Model 3 is simply a better overall package. 

Though I think realistically we'll end up waiting for the Y to come to Europe via the Berlin Tesla factory.

Germany build quality, SUV body style, Tesla tech, thats going to be a hard combination to beat.

[Mincey]

16 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

This the reason we went for our IS in the first place in 2015. At the time it was simply a better package when compared to the other cars we looked including the XF/XE, 3 series, and C class.

But now though for near price parity, the Model 3 is simply a better overall package. 

Though I think realistically we'll end up waiting for the Y to come to Europe via the Berlin Tesla factory.

Germany build quality, SUV body style, Tesla tech, thats going to be a hard combination to beat.

 

"Germany build quality" - an oxymoron surely :-)

[royoftherovers]

Germany build quality" - an oxymoron surely 🙂

Why do you say that James?

Any evidence to quote?

I am not a lover of German vehicles, but I still understand that they are well put together.

[Mincey]

5 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Germany build quality" - an oxymoron surely 🙂

Why do you say that James?

Any evidence to quote?

I am not a lover of German vehicles, but I still understand that they are well put together.

I thought I'd get in there before anyone else did John. It's based on experiences my b-in-l had with a 1 Series. He hated it and was on first name terms with most of the AA patrolmen.

[royoftherovers]

8 minutes ago, Mincey said:

I thought I'd get in there before anyone else did John. It's based on experiences my b-in-l had with a 1 Series. He hated it and was on first name terms with most of the AA patrolmen.

You certainly put your skates on quickly James. One Swallow does not make a Summer, but I understand your sentiment.

I`ve had 8 German cars and would not go anywhere near them again.

Have a great day and continue to enjoy the IS.

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, matt8 said:

Just booked my Model 3 test drive!

It costs nothing to do, 60 seconds online. No pushy salesman sitting next to you whilst you do it. A "contact free" test drive.

It's worth a look. Especially if you appreciate modern technology.

OK, Matt, we now expect to receive a full, honest and objective report, if you would be so kind.

I certainly will enjoy reading that.

[Mincey]

31 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

You certainly put your skates on quickly James. One Swallow does not make a Summer, but I understand your sentiment.

I`ve had 8 German cars and would not go anywhere near them again.

Have a great day and continue to enjoy the IS.

You too John, and I certainly do and will (although I miss the V6 noise of my IS250...) 

I guess it's rather anti-BMW, but this is a great thread on Pistonheads: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1249064

EDIT - wrong thread! There are clearly multiple "cars I've regretted buying" threads on the site - I was thinking of a more recent one.

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

Exactly.

This is that sadly truth.

We have an amazing car, it is beautiful, incredibly reliable, at certain moment it was an advanced car, with very special technical solutions especially in safety.

Now, except for the hybrid engine technology, if we talk about safety, design, and mechanical solutions there are many and many other identical solutions, and some will cost so much less.

The only difference it’s the logo.

But sometimes to be part of an exclusive club is not enough.

Personally I disagree totally that Lexus decide EU and UK has a value only for a certain range and prefer to lose historical customers and favor a new generation that probably know nothing of the brand and in few years they will change brand, while since 2004 I have spent 40/50K every three year to stay loyal to the brand.

And we cannot avoid to say that is the lack of knowledge in the vision of the future of cars that drive Toyota in a weird direction.

I really hope to be wrong, in may I have to take a decision and last week when I have try again a Tesla I feel my heartbeat.

I hope the Lexus dealer could convince me that buy a RC could give me the same feeling.

But if he talk just about “drive experience” or steering, suspensions and body... and faster driving and so on I think he will make a mistake.

Even if I am born in the middle of 60’s I am a customer that would try look forward.

And imagine spending again 50K for a car of the old generation it make me upset.

Or probably I will do, who know?

It’s sad that the brand I love stay still why the world is moving fast and a customer has to decide to stay still too.

 

 

 

A reasoned response, but remember that it is not the fastest starter that wins the race.

A modern day "Alf Tupper" can still start the race long after the Gun has signalled the off, work his way through the field and take the Tape, having passed the competitors ?

[dutchie01]

Ganzoom.  I am really interested to hear what is drawing you towards Tesla.

From your contributions over the years i am under the impression you are a tech lover and will adapt all new technology immediately. Is it the software, the digital environment of the car, The brandimage? a bit like apple where the aficionados just want to have everything and even stand in line for hours on end to get the latest release? It surely cannot be the buildquality of the car as you have written yourself in various mails, if Lexus would release cars like that it would be recall after recall and bad press on end. In my idea there are the early adapters of the new technology, the fans of the first hour that like the brand as much as the owner and want to be part of it. They will buy privately as they just want to own a Tesla. Then the environmentalists that will charge the car from their own solarpanels and it totally fits their lifestyle. The largest group will be the company car owners that drive it as it is cheap. For 50 euro a month you can drive as much as you want and the company pays your electricity. Tesla is their lover until another cheapie comes around. If say Audi all of a sudden would take over the lead with autonomous driving and electronic cockpits and buidlquality to match would you be willing to switch brand ?

And yes i too find the Lexus infotainment systems heavily outdated. Not only to Tesla but basically to almost all competitors, it seems 3 generations old now.  ( and i find the electronic doorhandles in a Tesla incredibly dangerous, anyone that experienced a bad accident and was depending on outside help will understand).

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Mincey said:

You too John, and I certainly do and will (although I miss the V6 noise of my IS250...) 

I guess it's rather anti-BMW, but this is a great thread on Pistonheads: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1249064

EDIT - wrong thread! There are clearly multiple "cars I've regretted buying" threads on the site - I was thinking of a more recent one.

Many thanks James, I`ve filed that away under "essential toilet reading!

I will certainly read it and hopefully have a good laugh.

[Mincey]

21 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Many thanks James, I`ve filed that away under "essential toilet reading!

I will certainly read it and hopefully have a good laugh.

This is the one I had in mind: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1883902&i=0 I think there was someone complaining about their Lexus being too reliable...

[Mincey]

My 2p worth. I'd rather have a levers and buttons to control the functions in my car than a touchscreen. I don't want to wade through a series of menus to change the direction of airflow of the air vents. I think there's a pretty good reason why F1 steering wheels are festooned with switches and not a great big touch sensitive LCD display.

It may just be because I'm an old luddite though.

[royoftherovers]

17 minutes ago, Mincey said:

This is the one I had in mind: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1883902&i=0 I think there was someone complaining about their Lexus being too reliable...

Thanks.Essential reading, then.

It is "funny" that everyone I know who has moved from Lexus made essentially the same point.

"It did not do anything wrong, it was soulless, it had no character, I could not bond with it. No rattles or Squeaks, I did not know when it was working or not"

Boy, aren`t we the lucky ones?

What if Lexus made Girlfriends and Wives ?

[royoftherovers]

21 minutes ago, Mincey said:

My 2p worth. I'd rather have a levers and buttons to control the functions in my car than a touchscreen. I don't want to wade through a series of menus to change the direction of airflow of the air vents. I think there's a pretty good reason why F1 steering wheels are festooned with switches and not a great big touch sensitive LCD display.

It may just be because I'm an old luddite though.

Welcome to the Flat Earth Society James!

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, ganzoom said:

If you step away from your hate for EVs your see the market is going in one direction

The only USP Lexus has is reliability, and for us that is not enough to make up for a lack of foward thinking on the technology front.

Hate EVs, technology, Tesla all you want but you cannot stop progress, and Lexus seems to be as interested in progress as Nokia was in 2007.

I do not hate EVs, this is completely not true - I just can't have one like majority of British people, especially in the cities. That is reality. If I could charge car at home and if I could have 2 cars (one ICE/hybrid/PHEV and one EV) I would have it, but reality is I have strictly one parking place and no charging facilities - end of story. And even then I am lucky, because there are 30 parking paces for 100 flats - so 70 households don't even have space to park, never mind charging. There are 6 charging points outside for ~1000 flats and all of them are broken.

I said - car at very least have to be reliable, if that is not the case then rest does not matter, BUT I never said Lexus is just reliable-  it has best built quality and mostly best materials as well, it is luxurious, it is comfortable, I like the design inside and outside as well. Nissans are not generally known for their reliability, but if you say Honda (say £500 civic) then I would agree, that they are just as reliable as Lexus for less. However, even if Honda can match Lexus reliability, they can't mace all the other things.

As well, Lexus cars are generally well equipped and are very far away from being outdated. Lexus LSS+ is one of the most comprehensive safety system in the market and it is standard equipment for all 2018+ cars. Further, for the purpose it is meant to be used it is just as good as Tesla's Autopilot.

And what forward thinking technology does Tesla have? Refined lithium batteries?! - that is 2000's technology. Beta Autopilot - that is concept technology being developed and tested, so it is not there yet and will not be "proper" for long time. What else? Their silly massive screens which are more pain to use, then "outdated" Lexus infotainment? I don't see this as technologically advanced. 

Yes EVs are the future, but that is exactly the case - it is not today/now it is the future.

2 hours ago, Mincey said:

 It's based on experiences my b-in-l had with a 1 Series. He hated it and was on first name terms with most of the AA patrolmen.

BMW-1 is not German, it is British, built on the same line as new Mini. I agree it is horrendous car and I have few fired who can attest it.

However, I had few 3-Series and 5-Series BMWs and I have a lot of friends with various models. They are not as reliable as Lexus, but generally speaking they are fairly reliable. There are overarching diesel problem, which affects any make. There are few known weak parts, but on average I would easily put BMW in top-10 most reliable cars.

But I agree re: touchscreens - they are pain to use and for driver when driving the buttons are always better - fact!

[Martin J]

1 hour ago, Mincey said:

My 2p worth. I'd rather have a levers and buttons to control the functions in my car than a touchscreen. I don't want to wade through a series of menus to change the direction of airflow of the air vents. I think there's a pretty good reason why F1 steering wheels are festooned with switches and not a great big touch sensitive LCD display.

It may just be because I'm an old luddite though.

I also think the Tesla approach is ergonomically poor. This case got some attention a little while ago:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53666222

I wonder whether the Tesla dash design philosophy is driven by minimalist aesthetics or cost - is it cheaper to stick an iPad on the dash?

[Spacewagon52]

This has been a very interesting thread.