IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[ganzoom]

This is nuts, utterly nuts......and to have this level of tech pushed out to a car manufacturer in over 3 years ago, WTF, who does stuff like this.

Cannot wait, this may be the nail in the coffin for our IS, what use is a car if it cannot drive it self :).

[dutchie01]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

This is nuts, utterly nuts......and to have this level of tech pushed out to a car manufacturer in over 3 years ago, WTF, who does stuff like this.

Cannot wait, this may be the nail in the coffin for our IS, what use is a car if it cannot drive it self :).

And now for the next test. Driving this thing in the centre of Amsterdam with countless bikes coming from all directions, 1000 pedestrians just walking about and absolutely nobody sticking to any rules whatsoever. I predict the hardware will melt within 10 minutes!

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, ganzoom said:

(1)Waymo is now running a llimited driverless Taxi service in Atlanta I think. But the test cars look like tanks on wheels with Lidar and extra CPUs.

(2)Take a look at the Tesla version, running off no additional hardware. What's more amazing our 2017 Model X will be able to do the same, just as soon as we get EU authorisation for the software!!!

(3)So whilst our Lexus IS still cannot even connect to Google Maps for traffic updates, our Tesla looks like it might actually be able to drive it self!!!

(4)As I've said before, Tesla is so far ahead of the tech curve its not funny anymore. If Tesla really have nailed Full Self Driving without needing Lidar and using a CPU barely bigger than a in dash radio, they have just changed the game.....

1. yes because Waymo is business and it does not want liability claims on preventable accidents when running self-driving car without Lidar.

2. somehow you are forgetting to mention that owners will have to pay "subscription fee" for the hardware they already have in their car to be able to use it. The whole "no additional hardware thing" is not a benefit for Tesla owner - you just get less things, the only benefactor is Tesla who saves money no fitting expensive hardware on car. This is complete "apple logic" - less is more!

3. True Lexus is slow to update their software, their infotainment controls are awful, although sounds systems are very good. New Lexus'es are now increasingly coming with AppleCarplay and AndroidAuto - at which point car own infotainment controls becomes irrelevant. Does Tesla have better infotainment - yes they do, is it really necessary? No... And by the way I find touchscreens rather difficult to use when driving, I prefer physical buttons for many functions. So again they are going all the way "design over function", yes single screen looks more minimalist, but it isn't best way to control things. I agree though, that once you stopped it provides best controls and functions.

4. This is factually incorrect (and you must know it) - automation levels are defined in SAE (J3016) Automation Levels and Tesla "Autopilot" is Level 2- Partial Automation. At the same time BMW, Audi, MB, Volvo, Citroen/DS and few others have functional prototypes with Levels 3. As far as I am aware Audi was the only one which had it production ready but dropped it. So no Tesla is not winning the game, they just trying to play AI card with insufficient sensors. What is the difference between Tesla and all other automakers? All other automakers have reputation to protects - Tesla doesn't, Teslas reputation is inventing and braking barriers and when they insufficient sensors kill somebody, they just shrug off the blame by saying "person was using it incorrectly" and "it is beta testing". I will forever be "beta testing".... not because it is not ready to use, but because nobody wants to deal with liability. And don't get me wrong - I appreciate that Tesla is the only company which allows consumer to use automation on the car, however defective it is, that is currently the only way and I commend them for that. But they are not ahead of the game! Finally, the laws are the issue - I find such driving aids useless, if I am behind the wheel and I am capable of driving, then I want to drive. Autopilot would be cool if I could get drunk in my car and just let it drive me home, or if I could go to sleep when tired behind the wheel, or if I could summon the car to pick me up from the office from garage 2 miles away, or to drop me off to the office and then go to park itself in the same garage. Until we have laws which allows it, potentially we won't have them until we have at least level 4 automation certified cars, this whole self driving thing is gimmick!

I appreciate you passion for Tesla, but you sound like fanboy. There are positives, there are negatives, but it seems you focusing only on positives and do not know or simply ignoring negatives.  

6 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

And now for the next test. Driving this thing in the centre of Amsterdam with countless bikes coming from all directions, 1000 pedestrians just walking about and absolutely nobody sticking to any rules whatsoever. I predict the hardware will melt within 10 minutes!

And that is very good point - the issue of automation is not as much with the cars and technology. Tesla has proven even with their Level 2 automation, that it could be left to drive itself on motorways between cities etc. Problem is with our roads! If all roads are marked correctly and everyone follows the rules, even Level 2 would be sufficient for 99% of situations, but drivers do not follow the rules, roads are not marked, not lit-up, layout is not standardised... and when it comes to cities is absolute mess - anyone crosses the roads right, left and centre whichever way they are pleased. For automation the key is simplicity - the simpler is the task, the easier it is to automate. The more original and unique is the task, the harder is to automate - that said driving on the roads in the city is like 80% (if not more) of the time unique situation at the moment and 20% of the time you can follow known path. So in itself it is not suitable task to automate.

[ganzoom]

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

And now for the next test. Driving this thing in the centre of Amsterdam with countless bikes coming from all directions, 1000 pedestrians just walking about and absolutely nobody sticking to any rules whatsoever. I predict the hardware will melt within 10 minutes!

It'll certainly be an interesting test which am sure some one will do soon. I've just gone out to take the trash, the IS300H parked next up to our Tesla is looking more pointless by the day.....Seriously how can two cars produced within 12 months of each other be so different.

[dutchie01]

 

In the Netherlands at the moment 50.000 EV charging points of which some 2000 high speed chargers. In June this year the government announced the automotive climate plan which is an investment of 30 million euro  in expansion of charging points alone. starting 2021 there will be 75.000 extra chargers and from 2025 this will go to 200.000 more chargers per year. Most will go to inner cities or streets where people now have no possibillity to charge. Streetlamps will be fitted with EV points.

[Linas.P]

27 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

 

In the Netherlands at the moment 50.000 EV charging points of which some 2000 high speed chargers. In June this year the government announced the automotive climate plan which is an investment of 30 million euro  in expansion of charging points alone. starting 2021 there will be 75.000 extra chargers and from 2025 this will go to 200.000 more chargers per year. Most will go to inner cities or streets where people now have no possibillity to charge. Streetlamps will be fitted with EV points.

In UK so far - https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/99879/uk-cities-that-could-benefit-most-from-ev-rapid-charging-fund-revealed/

And the problem here is that there are no plans for mass charging points at all. The plans are only for "charging stations" i.e. equivalent to petrol stations, where you can charge your car when you are away from home. This is massive non-starter!

I am not sure if this is lack of understanding of how EV's works or what... yes that is fine for ICE, you don't need to have petrol station at home because it takes 1 minute to refill. Are they suggesting that you will get-up in the morning, then drive to "charging station" stay there for 30-45mins and then drive to work?! Or is it that after the work in the evening you will visit "charging station" and wait for same amount of time before going back home and parking?

In short different countries have different approaches, but as a whole there is very long way to go before we can switch to electric. 

Finally, if we look to Netherlands example - they now have 50k "public" changing, if their plans to be believed they will install additional 375k in next 5 years and then additional 1 million in following 5 years. Making total of 1.425 million, let's assume that it will be matched with half as much private changing points 700k. With over 8.7 million cars, 2.1million charging points only cover ~25%... I mean that is far far better than UK, but still it means EV will be at most 25% of the market by 2030... Not so revolutionary is it? And I mean I am already being generous with the numbers - Netherlands 92% urban population, about 5.6 million households in total meaning that realistically just ~500k have houses, nearly 5 million will live in cities with limited options to install charging points. Further if the plan is to be believed, then 30 million euros is for what period?! I assume that is 5 years plan, meaning that they are planning to install charging point for 80euro a piece?! No surely that cannot be right... what is it then ... for one year maybe? Either way 30 million euro does not sound like much when we talking infrastructure. 30 billion, with a B would be solid plan though... 

[dutchie01]

To meet the 2030 climate goal it is calculated there should be 1.9 million EV's on the road. To make this possible 1.7 million charging points are needed. The installation as mentioned above is working towards this goal in 2030 ( only 9 yrs..). The 30 million is a contribution from the government to kickstart the project which is now in progress. The remainder of the funds will have to come fom third parties through tenders.    Whatever it means it means but i am already able to drive an EV for company use. It will bring me where i want within the country and i dont even have to plan the route knowing there are already chargingstations enough.  

[Linas.P]

And that does make sense, especially for company use where mileage is more predictable. Not sure same could be said about private use. Further having 1.7million charging points does not guarantee that there will be 1.9 million EVs, although it does address my main concern about infrastructure (in only Netherlands that is). I am sure other strong contenders going to be Norway, Singapore, Belgium, probably Denmark... but certainly not UK. There is nothing to suggest UK have this under control.

And I mean I am just looking at Netherlands plans on the face value, I don't know what is their energy production and peak capacity is... however what I know for sure is that UK does not have enough and will not have enough in time if the goals for EVs would be met. I guess my point - Netherlands allegedly being ready is exception no the rule, and it does not automatically means that all the countries will be.

[dutchie01]

Interesting development regarding the buildquality (or lack of) of TESLA, which has been discussed on this thread.

In the Dutch press yesterday. "disappointed Tesla owners taking Tesla to court".  2 owners started a foundation called Tesla Claim then made a pressrealease and 3 days later already 118 other owners joined the bandwagon. They are reporting inferior buildquality resulting in ; bumpers falling off, doorhandles not working, engines needing replacement, 90kwh engines only having 78kwh after measuring, driveshafts breaking, autopilot causing emergency stop at highway, and so on. They are currently putting all issues together and it is expected more owners will join. 

To me this means Tesla is mainstream. The Tesla earlyadapters/fanboys were accepting everything. The new customers coming from other brands dont. Welcome to reality. 

 

[royoftherovers]

What on  Earth does one expect for only 100,000 euros ?

Ganzoom says he expects models built in Germany will be much better.

[Overland]

Ok, the battle seems against EV’s and in particular Tesla that after only few years in the market have problem of quality.

(To be honest a look over Alfa Romeo, Audi or Volvo forums show that these decennial brands have lot of problem too as a personal owner of previous German Car -VW and Audi- I would never experience what I have passed)

Assumed the car manufacturer Tesla is the worst in the world and we all think that the best alternative to Lexus is Lexus, to come in topic:

”if one that does not like SUV or any mini SUV, need to replace an IS330H in EU or UK in 2020 and just say no to ES, which car has to choose for another 4 year of lease?”

Always remember that the title of the topic said that IS, CT and RC will be discontinued.

 

Based on this statement, the RC that could be a good choice, could became soon after the purchase an “out of the market car” and most probably Lexus itself would not recognize any value.

So?

The only choice is to buy a Diesel German car?

Or a mild-hybrid or how the German call their “hybrid” engines that are eons far from the tecnology of Lexus and will never be compared to the quality of Lexus?

Or a Volvo EV’s? But we sain there’s not enough charging point! So absolutely NO to Ev’s let’s continue with petrol, OK.

Or maybe to pay the last payment of the lease, in my case 17.000€, instead to swap for a new car and wait to know when in Lexus would offer an IS Ev’s and continue to drive a car that every month loose is value?

Any other idea?

 

[dutchie01]

Love your expression Cris, The best alternative to Lexus is Lexus.  Now say it with a deep dark whisky voice in slow speak. The Best Alternative To Lexus Is Lexus.

I think you just found the new company slogan! 

[Overland]

2 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Love your expression Cris, The best alternative to Lexus is Lexus.  Now say it with a deep dark whisky voice in slow speak. The Best Alternative To Lexus Is Lexus.

I think you just found the new company slogan! 

To be honest as I live where they made Prosecco wine I prefer a cold glass of wine.

But I have to point, that my assumption comes naturally because after three pages we talk about Tesla young manufacturer problems, but we didn’t find any solution or advice to an old and loyal Lexus customer that after two CT and four Lexus IS desperately want to stay as a customer of Lexus but, because someone else decide sedan are not trendy’s (for Lexus management only SUV are!) he should buy a ES or a SUV.

I assume the alternative to Lexus is “a different Lexus”?

Or a downgrade to Toyota? So at that point, if a Lexus customer should buy a Toyota why not a Peugeot or a Renault or a Opel or a Seat?

 

 

[Linas.P]

38 minutes ago, Overland said:

1... Ok, the battle seems against EV’s

2... and in particular Tesla that

3... after only few years in the market have problem of quality.

Not at all, however as roundabouts are not a solution for all issues on the roads, equally full EV is not (yet) alternative for GS, IS and RC.

1... Pointing out both pros. and cons. is not being "against", it is just being objective.

2... I don't want to repeat myself, but Tesla quality simply does not represent the price-tag*, and technology does not somehow cover for lac of quality i.e. having massive screen does not mean that you can live with door handle not working. *And price-tag is important - they trying to sell Tesla as "luxury" brand, but their quality barely meets "barn build prototype" quality and that is an issue. That is why it is fair to call them out.

3... Tesla is not so new brand as you may think - it is 17 years old, so if quality was ever an important factor they certainly had enough time to figure it out. When Lexus came out to market with LS it was literally new brand (yes surely Toyota backed), but by your logic LS should have been plagued with quality issues? That said Tesla hired countless managers and engineers from GM, apple, BMW, Audi etc. So they have "know-how" when it comes to building cars... not to mention EVs are inherently more reliable, because there are no complex mechanical parts... building interior which does not fall to bits and having panel gaps somewhat equal size is not rocket-science.

All, above said - I am not against EVs and not against Tesla. For EVs a a whole I cannot own one because in UK, London and where I live there are no infrastructure to own one. As for Tesla - the built quality is a major issue for me, and until this is solved I can't accept the compromise.

7 minutes ago, Overland said:

We didn’t find any solution or advice to an old and loyal Lexus customer that after two CT and four Lexus IS desperately want to stay as a customer of Lexus but, because someone else decide sedan are not trendy’s (for Lexus management only SUV are!) he should buy a ES or a SUV.

I assume the alternative to Lexus is “a different Lexus”?

Or a downgrade to Toyota? So at that point, if a Lexus customer should buy a Toyota why not a Peugeot or a Renault or a Opel or a Seat?

Yes sadly we both are in the same boat, because there are no solution, and there was no solution for a while. I understand that you found 300h acceptable, but even that wasn't the case for me. I owned 3 IS and now RC and my next car may be RC-F or LC (both price dependant), but more likely I will leave the brand for good.

Why RC-F or LC - because that is the last cars Lexus have in EU which are worth the badge. Well LS is good car as well, but I am more into coupes and at worst "sport-saloons", big limo is not my type of thing.

Regarding SUVs - it is not Lexus management decision, it is market and customer base overall... and there are good reasons for that. One making SUV cost the same as making any other car - 50kg of extra steel does not cost that much more for making bigger body, but with SUV one can charge extra 30%... and 30% is massive margin in the car manufacturing. As for customers... I have no answer - SUV (unlike 4x4 off-roader) is epitome of all bad characteristics of the car for me - poor handling, poor economy, high centre of gravity, heavier etc. but many people like it. I would almost argue - people who like SUVs, don't like driving..

Yes Toyota is downgrade, biggest issue for me is the driving wheels as I will never buy FWD car. However, why not other cars in your list? Because Toyota still has Toyota quality, french cars are literally trash on the day they are made and even Opel or Seat has noting comparable to Toyota when it comes to quality, re-sale values etc. The only other alternative I see is Honda.

For me personally, I am pretty certain next brand will be BMW or MB... even today I would be much better served by BMW 6-Series rather than my RC, but RC is much more unique and much more cool, so compromises were made... 

 

[dutchie01]

If you take German manufacturers off your wishlist as well as French and Italian only Japan and Korea remain. How about Infinity? or Genesis ( not sure if available where you live).

And what about Kia? the Stinger?. If you lease quality is not such an issue as all faults will be restored and not on your cost. If you buy private depreciation comes in play and as always the rules of supply and demand. Lots of people want a MINI so you can sellit off easily at a good price. But an RC300H is so low in demand that it will be a challenge to resell. Depreciation will be big. If i would buy private i would never buy a new car let someone else take the hit. Why not look for a good 5 year old with warranty. If you choose wisely it could be a cost effective route to motoring.  Jaguar XJ/XF ?  or Volvo S90? and what about a 5 yr old LEXUS GS450H/300h/250 as private buy??   

[royoftherovers]

"For me personally, I am pretty certain next brand will be BMW or MB... even today I would be much better served by BMW 6-Series rather than my RC, but RC is much more unique and much more cool, so compromises were made... "

The above is a quote from your text Linas and I would like to be a fly on the wall when you enter combat with Dealerships of either BMW or MB. You know as well as I do that they are both not without problems as regards Design,Build Quality, Reliability and Customer Service. They care only for Corporate Sales and have no interest whatsoever in the "man on the Clapham Omnibus."

You are well aware that they are image manufacturers selling status vehicles, so if you wish to be seen as going up in the World, then off you should jolly well go.

Have you considered living in the States where you will find your Oyster ?

I will now desist from commenting on your future correspondence.

 

[Overland]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

If you take German manufacturers off your wishlist as well as French and Italian only Japan and Korea remain. How about Infinity? or Genesis ( not sure if available where you live).

And what about Kia? the Stinger?. If you lease quality is not such an issue as all faults will be restored and not on your cost. If you buy private depreciation comes in play and as always the rules of supply and demand. Lots of people want a MINI so you can sellit off easily at a good price. But an RC300H is so low in demand that it will be a challenge to resell. Depreciation will be big. If i would buy private i would never buy a new car let someone else take the hit. Why not look for a good 5 year old with warranty. If you choose wisely it could be a cost effective route to motoring.  Jaguar XJ/XF ?  or Volvo S90? and what about a 5 yr old LEXUS GS450H/300h/250 as private buy??   

To be honest, as my language is not clear in English, none of the solutions would work for me, even if I really appreciate you offer. E so many options, and for this I thank you so much.

The big problem raise when we talk about another very important element, that is: design and, above all, exclusivity.

Since I drive my IS200/250/300H I saw very very few, less that the fingers on a hand.

Here in Italy, or almost in my region, that is north east side, driving a IS or a RC it’s exclusive, not for the price (lot of people here drive AUDI, BMW or MB top of the range that cost more of my IS!) but as a sign of distinction.

You distinguished becase you drive an hybrid car, uncommon and of the very best qualty ever, this is something that has an intangible, but very high, value in my opinion.

So, cannot imagine to drive a “normal car” the same of other hundreds of people here, like sheeps, as I am also a designer my obsession for design and details are adding problem to problem too, another reason while I found incredible they ceased to delivery in EU so beautiful sedan lime the IS.

And this also the problem of SUV: if you see a Lexus in Italy, generally is a UX or NX, rarely a RX (that I really love as it is the “originator” but 3.5 are to expensive to manage in Italy for tax) very rarely a IS or RC (never seen one on the road here) and LS is almost impossible, while MC S class is very common in the rich owners of small companies around here.

So at the end, these factors concour too to create  a big problem in the moment of decision, as it seems that not only tangible values should be considered, but those intangible too... and in this field, Lexus is a totally winner.

Not easy, not easy.

 

[Martin J]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

As for customers... I have no answer - SUV (unlike 4x4 off-roader) is epitome of all bad characteristics of the car for me - poor handling, poor economy, high centre of gravity, heavier etc. but many people like it. I would almost argue - people who like SUVs, don't like driving..

Entering this discussion at my peril, but I'm an NX owner who likes driving. Please do not try to convince me that I do not like driving!

It's true that SUVs have higher CoG, greater frontal area and generally weigh slightly more than equivalently-priced saloons or hatchbacks (though only a few tens of kilos for the NX over the ES). It's more of a challenge to get an acceptable ride/handling compromise, too, though Lexus manage it pretty well.  But many people (including me) like the higher driving position, easy of entry and exit, airy cabins, and practicality of crossover-type SUVs. There's now almost a continuum of aspect ratios for vehicle design, from slightly raised hatchbacks (GLA, UX) to taller SUVs like the RX and Discovery.

If you take a long view, until the early 1960s cars had a similar height and seat hip point to many current SUVs. The quest for lowness, which predated concerns about economy, can be seen as something of an aberration in car design (with the exception of sports cars, for which handling and lightness are crucial design objectives). The "SUV" label is now somewhat unhelpful as it embraces an increasingly large proportion of the models on sale, and the unexpected sales success of the first Nissan Qashqai showed the huge appetite for slightly higher cars. Indeed, the Qashqai and Kuga are arguably now what family cars look like, rather than being some kind of niche vehicle. 

This is why I think campaigns for a blanket ban on "SUV" advertising on the grounds of reducing CO2 emissions are misplaced. It's surely better to focus on the CO2 emissions of all vehicles regardless of format, and let customers exercise choice as to the height of their vehicle.

And when Tesla figure out how to build them properly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Model Y outsells the 3.

 

 

[Overland]

I have nothing against SUV!

In fact I said that a RX would be a dream, and more than RX, my very deep dream is a Toyota Land Cruiser from the 80’s carefully restored and in a shade of color like taupe or dark brown, like a saw on the Japanese magazine dedicated of lifestyle where old LC are like gold and there’s company that restore them perfectly.

My decision to not buy a NX or UX comes because I love sport style sedans and IS/RC are exactly my idea of design.

Again, it is also a question of exclusivity: as the NX and UX is very common here, the big problem is to have something different, this comes from my work, as a designer, I always pay attention to this.

 

 

[Guest]

“ I would like to be a fly on the wall when you enter combat with Dealerships of either BMW or MB. You know as well as I do that they are both not without problems as regards Design,Build Quality, Reliability and Customer Service. They care only for Corporate Sales and have no interest whatsoever in the "man on the Clapham Omnibus."

A bit unfair I think, having owned both MB & BMW I never had a problem with either and the MB main dealer I used was absolutely first class even though I was just a man from the Omnibus!  
if you want a rear wheel drive saloon/coupe the issue still remains it won’t be Lexus in the future as things stand, LS and LC are out of most people’s price bracket.

[dutchie01]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

not only tangible values should be considered, but those intangible too... and in this field, Lexus is a totally winner.

Not easy, not easy.

Well Cris, i think you are giving the answer yourself!  your next car will be a RC 300H F-SPORT in blue or red metallic. Problem solved. ( no need to thank me...)

 

 

[Overland]

10 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

 

 

😄😄

[doog442]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

For me personally, I am pretty certain next brand will be BMW or MB... even today I would be much better served by BMW 6-Series rather than my RC, but RC is much more unique and much more cool, so compromises were made... 

 

This will go down like a lead balloon on here. I jumped ship from the IS two years ago back into a BMW. I'm a cash buyer so there are no PCP constraints so I can move when I choose too. I've gone Lexus - BMW - Lexus - BMW since 2007. (BMW ownership has been faultless btw)

However my love for Lexus has had me looking at coming back for the third time. I'm absolutely not ready for Hybrid but a few weeks ago I did a test drive in an RC300 Takumi. I agree about the fantastic external looks, however once in the cabin I was back in the IS I left behind. Nothing appealed despite this being top of the range...it was simply out of date and absolutely no progress in five years compared to the opposition. I may look back at it in the supermarket car park and think what a stunning looking car but there's more to  that.   

I'm in a 340i so take away the silky smooth B58 its still a three series. I did a back to back test route with an open mind and ignored any performance issues. I was deeply disappointed with the ML, the Harman Kardon in the BMW is vastly better, the infotainment -seriously it hasn't moved! I'm well used the to the clunkiness and welcomed the bigger screen but suddenly I've gone back that decade and I'm not even a technophobe. So I got out of the RC and did the same drive in the 340i..it could have been the 440i..simply worlds apart I'm afraid in every respect including comfort...damnit I so want to come back and I actually felt deflated. Then of course we have the G20 just to add pain onto Lexus which cabin and performance wise is a massive step up from the F30

I've no need or desire for an SUV (I couldn't even fit my golf clubs into a UX) so I've been squeezed out unless I do an RCF....which I may do to scratch the eternal itch but the truth is it may well be the M4 or M2 or Merc C43 or C63...with a warranty of course, however many with a GSF/ RCF have a warranty. 

 

 

[ganzoom]

Very interesting discussions, but I have to confess what I've seen in the last 48hrs has 100% changed my view on car ownership and whats coming very soon.

I remember the watching Steve Jobs slide to unlock the Iphone back in 2007 and than looking at my Palm Treo realising that it was nothing more than a paper weight, I now see this for every single car onsale today.

Robotaxis aren't just coming, for American cities with Waymo they are already here. Tesla aren't far behind either.

I just cannot get my head around the idea of buying a brand new car that cannot offer near full autonomous driving now. Why would you spend so much ££££ on technology thats already been superceded??

The legislation will take a few years to catch up, the tech still needs to mature, but the future of personal transportation is already here, and Tesla aside I cannot see how any of the current car manufactures will remain relevant. Waymo (Google) is well on their way of becoming the mega cooperation running our lives......for better or worse :).

https://youtu.be/ZsfUmU30kWY

https://youtu.be/t9fmNRLwuOw

[Thackeray]

2 hours ago, ganzoom said:

The legislation will take a few years to catch up, the tech still needs to mature, but the future of personal transportation is already here, and Tesla aside I cannot see how any of the current car manufactures will remain relevant.

There seemed to be a lot of publicity about self-driving cars about five or six years ago. Here's a video about Mercedes from 2014 which makes the same point that legislation will need to catch up. But since then I've been struck by how the majority of comments in newspapers or web forums have been generally negative about self-driving cars. People say they wouldn't trust the machine, they'd rather be in control of the car and so on. My own view is that I'd rather all these cars around me were controlled by computers than by drunk 17-year-olds or bank robbers on drugs trying to evade the police. (I know - that hardly ever happens but you know what I mean.) In a plane, I feel more comfortable 10 seconds after takeoff when I assume that the autopilot has been engaged. Computers are not autonomous entities; they are expert systems that embody all the knowledge that human beings have been able to embed in their operation. And the computers don't get tired. (Or if they do, there's usually a backup computer or two to take over in planes and probably in cars of the future, too.)

So personally, I've been waiting for the naysayers to evolve. Of course, there will still be car enthusiasts who want to drive cars. There are still horse enthusiasts who want to ride horses. But if you're 17 in 2025, why would you bother to pay a thousand or two to pass your driving test when your phone will bring a self-driving taxi to your door in three minutes? If you want to go to a pub in the evening, why would you want to go in your own car and not be able to drink any alcohol? When you're 25, why would you want to spend thousands to own a car, (unless you're an enthusiast) with all the expense, parking problems and hassle of looking after it? So you get to the age of 35 and still haven't learnt to drive and still don't own a car. You're unlikely to change your habits now.

And from the business point of view, drivers cost a lot of money. Eliminate the driver and your profits rise substantially. So there will be continuous financial pressure for self-driving vehicles..

Dealing with the resulting unemployment from drivers losing their jobs is something the business people will leave others to worry about.