IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Overland]

About the fact that Tesla could not be good for the needs of mileage and daily use of EU market customers, I can only report the data of Italy:

2019 sold Lexus: 5.820 units

2019 sold Tesla: 2443 units (about 2000 model 3)

It seems Tesla can fullfill the needs of Italian drivers in order to mobility and so on.

Lexus is in Italy since 1989, in thirty years after all the investements, advertising, dealerships they arrive to sell about the double of Tesla that is in Italy from how much? Three years?

Something goes wrong.

[ganzoom]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But Tesla... not they don't have short terms future in EU or UK... maybe in distant future when ICE get's banned they will become relevant... And that is why other automakers are not rushing into this market. And the same reason why Honda E, eGolf or even Leaf makes much more sense here.

Interesting, Tesla has no future in Europe, yet every country (UK included) was falling over themselves to be picked for the next Tesla factory.

 

You might have also missed the memo on VAG going full in for EVs, Porsche VAG halo brand sees their future as an EV brand. Why else would they choose to display the Taycan as their current flagship instead of the new 911 for all the 70th anniversary marketing materials??

As for all other EVs making more sense than a Tesla for some reason, you might want to check sales figures.

[ganzoom]

6 hours ago, Overland said:

Lexus is in Italy since 1989, in thirty years after all the investements, advertising, dealerships they arrive to sell about the double of Tesla that is in Italy from how much? Three years?

Something goes wrong.

I suspect you don't need to wait three years, it wouldn't surprise me if Tesla out sells Lexus in Europe for 2020.

COVID will be the excuse given, but Tesla owners aren't immune to COVID.

The Y will enter European production come 2021 at the Berlin factory. So a small SUV, built with German QC methodology in Germany, backed by government incentives, all bets are off at that point whos going to be losing sales to Tesla in Europe.

 

Lexus/BMW/Audi/Merc are all in same competing sector.

[dutchie01]

To put things in perspective here.  The automotive market is going through the biggest change in 70 years. The Co2 regulations have pushed manufacturers into hybrid and full UV development at a pace nobody thought possible. As a result the market will look dramatically different in 12 months time. For the manufacturers depending on EU sales there is only one way forward ... EV. Tesla has been pioneering this development since 2007 and turned into a carmanufacturer from beeing a software developer. The green movement caused governments to provide subsidies and tax benefits and the company car market was driven by this so Tesla ruled some markets. They pioneered with the chargers in the first years even given power for free. The Tesla network is still  big benefit but in some countries this is already leveling out as chargers  are appearing all over the place. Tesla still has an enormous advantage and i dont think they can be compared to Lexus at all, beeing a niche manufacturer. Tesla is now mainstream. In the netherlands Lexus sold a meagre 1039  cars last year and Tesla?... 30943.

All manufacturers are rolling out EVs at an ever increasing pace. The VAG group invests 28 BILLION pounds in EV development and another 23 BILLION in hybrid technology. BMW want 25% of sales to be full EV in 2025. Mercedes is investing 10 BILLION in the EQ range alone and will offer 50 EV cars in 2022.

And Lexus???  Toyota is a big powerhouse that is known for its conservatism. They seem to move from hybrid to plug ins and maybe in some years will have EVs. In the rest of the world EV is not such a big topic and i would not be surprised if Lexus would pull out of the European market in some years time all together. 

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spacewagon52]

Sadly I do realise I have TWO dinosaurs on my drive, preparing for extinction. There is also an amphibian holding on by its shirt tails. The technology in the 400h is still amazing to me. You get the power of a wonderful V6 (please do not confuse this with a straight six) with the extra boost of immediate torque from the electric motors. BUT with the economy of a 2.0 / 1.6 litre petrol engine of the period (read carefully John!) ! The intermediate way forward, for most people,  I believe is the PHEV with a decent Battery range. For most users the car will be run on electric but can do longer journeys when required at a greater cost of course. Ultimately hydrogen powered trucks and vans will be the norm. along with fuel cell cars. COVID has shown that we do not need to travel quite as much as we thought. Good road planning with cycle lanes / electric bikes & tricycles (for us older generation who are not too steady on two wheels) and traffic free zones has the opportunity to revolutionize not only travel but play for children. I remember the days of carless streets where you could kick a ball and annoy the neighbours without fear of being squashed!

The future is bright but NOT for my lovely steeds parked on my drive. I will enjoy them (in environmental guilt) for as long as they last or until they are taxed off the road.

 

[dutchie01]

No worries David i expect you can run your beloved fuel burners for many years to come as long as you stear clear of city centres. Like you say Covid has accelerated this development. Temporay bike lanes that were started in the first lockdown are beeing made definite. In more and more city centres you are only allowed to enter with a full EV and several cities are transforming complete blocks into pedestrian zones. I guess in 15 years time a V8 will be a hobby like horseriding now! 

[Spacewagon52]

Ganzoom is a wonderful advocate for EV vehicles. What I find perplexing is his experience with Tesla reliability and yet he still praises the brand. Sorry Gang but I can't find the list of faults you posted but after owning a Lexus I am somewhat surprised that you have not traded the Tesla in!

 

[ganzoom]

 

9 hours ago, Spacewagon52 said:

 I can't find the list of faults you posted but after owning a Lexus I am somewhat surprised that you have not traded the Tesla in!

 

The IS is my wife's car, and its actually the other way round interms of trading in cars :).

We actually did order a Model 3 to replace the Lexus- yes we ordered another Tesla to replace the Lexus dispite reliability issues. But overall cost of change was too high to justify given the Lexus has done barely 2k miles since March this year so we cancelled the Model 3 order.

Reliability of our X had been awful but reliability isn't the only metric to car ownership for me. Far more important for me is the smile factor and the looking back when you walk away test. Our X is the best car I have ever owned on those two points, yes if it was more reliable that would be better, but nothing in life is perfect!

As a reminder of just how different our IS and Tesla is I had to drive the Lexus yesterday, its still hard for me to belive these two interiors are from two cars made within 12 months of each other...Honestly if you haven't experienced/used the tech a Tesla offers you wouldn't know any better, but once you have its amazing how far behind Lexus have fallen.

So your right, one of our car is destined to be replaced before the other, but its not the one you think :).

[Spacewagon52]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

 

The IS is my wife's car, and its actually the other way round interms of trading in cars :).

We actually did order a Model 3 to replace the Lexus- yes we ordered another Tesla to replace the Lexus dispite reliability issues. But overall cost of change was too high to justify given the Lexus has done barely 2k miles since March this year so we cancelled the Model 3 order.

Reliability of our X had been awful but reliability isn't the only metric to car ownership for me. Far more important for me is the smile factor and the looking back when you walk away test. Our X is the best car I have ever owned on those two points, yes if it was more reliable that would be better, but nothing in life is perfect!

As a reminder of just how different our IS and Tesla is I had to drive the Lexus yesterday, its still hard for me to belive these two interiors are from two cars made within 12 months of each other...Honestly if you haven't experienced/used the tech a Tesla offers you wouldn't know any better, but once you have its amazing how far behind Lexus have fallen.

So your right, one of our car is destined to be replaced before the other, but its not the one you think :).

What you say reminds me of a story a garage foreman told me. He gave me an absolute damning report of his ownership of a SAAB he owned.

"So, you will be getting rid of it then?" I said.

"No! No! It's a fantastic car! I love it even with all the problems!" he replied to my astonishment.

You are correct, there is more to owning a car than just reliability - but my MAIN priority is a car that does not have to be taken to the garage every other week. That is not my idea of fun owning a car, it is just a wind up to me.

[royoftherovers]

That was my view too Davey, but remember that;

one man`s meat is another man`s poison

beauty lies in the eyes of the holder

the value of money is different to each person.

I also think that the psychology of individual differences plays a large part.

Each to their own!

[Overland]

It must certainly be said that the question of design is important but not essential in the context of the topic that focuses on alternatives (At Lexus) for those who want to switch from an IS to a new car in the next six months.

All the houses could make sci-fi cockpits if they like.

It would be enough to see what Lexus had thought for the concept of the IS250 which is the LF-CC:





I dare say that compared to this, today's Tesla's looks outdated.

Lexus presented this concept in 2012

The difference between European and Asian houses and Tesla is that while the first ones sip innovations drop by drop, always maintaining a basic "old-fashioned" approach that is understandable by all consumers, who in the vast majority do not even understand how a PC work, Tesla broke every type of approach, well aware of the type of market it was aimed at.

Lexus has the exact same possibilities of creating a futuristic cockpit as other houses have, although for some reason it remains anchored to the old patterns.
European houses, even in lower target cars, such as Citoren with el DS, have very beautiful, digitally advanced, much more versatile cockpits: Lexus introduced apple Car just a couple of years ago.

I am a designer who works in textiles, I work and have worked with the Japanese.
Their approach is very particular: on the one hand they are very technologically advanced and create avant-garde textile products, but when it comes to translating these fabrics into clothing products, they create garments inspired by old America, outdoor like LL BEAN or Filson.

I'll tell you more: although they can produce extremely high-performance fabrics, they go crazy buying old American looms to re-manufacture the obsolete fabrics of the old American industries, now almost all closed.

In my opinion, this approach also applies to cars.

They start with concepts that are very advanced, both in design and technology, they titillate us with wonderful ideas that we already imagine we can have in our cars.

Then when the production cars come out, all these ideas are downsized, both for costs and for the real usability of the average buyer, who, in fact, would not know how to use them.

Tesla starts from the exact opposite: you buy it because you REALLY WANT that technology and you accept an honestly anonymous and insignificant body design (compared to Lexus) and some quality problems, which I imagine will be solved.
Even Lexus, compared to 15 years ago, now makes cars with more problems, just take a ride on the net.

It is therefore no longer a question of capacity, but of will: Lexus does not want to evolve, it has not understood the market, it has not understood where it wants to go.
This, of course, is what transpires to us consumers of a certain type, from their behavior, their mistakes, their botched strategies.

In Italy, the customers who buy the UX and the NX (strictly the cheaper and basic versions, as my dealer tells me, that is, the majority of customers find the options offered as useless) are the customers who think that Lexus is KIA or maybe some other Korean company, they know nothing about who Lexus was.

Perhaps, while we discuss this and slowly stop being Lexus customers, in Japan they are imagining incredible and very advanced things, such as to make even the Space X shuttle seem obsolete, but we will never know.

At the moment I just want to understand, in a few months, what car I will have to buy to replace my IS and it seems that alternatives in the Lexus house are very few, if not zero.

I worry, because I remain firmly convinced that I will never buy a German car again and certainly European houses do not attract me.

[Spacewagon52]

Very interesting perspective Cris.

[Moleman]

Interesting comments from all, it just shows that the market has many different views and approaches. In the end is this driven by customers or the manufacturer? In my case one of the strongest reasons for buying a Lexus was I could buy a car with Tech that I wanted and would use but did not have to have a touch screen (which I hate). Lets see how many of the cheap cars with touch screens will still be working in ten years.

[Overland]

Certainly technology, for example that of touch screens, brings with it advantages and also possible problems.

If we remember, Lexus intorduced the touch scoff in the IS250 and all in all it was not bad, I was able to appreciate that interface in the three years that I have driven the IS250.

Then Lexus with the IS300H version switched to the current interface, with the "mouse", which I personally like very much, as I find the screen integrated in the console very nice.

In the RC, RX and NX we find the touch pad, which I however found very uncomfortable.

Now in the new IS MY2021 and also in the current RX we return to the touch screen and to a screen positioning very similar to Mercedes, or as if the driver had a tablet in front.

Even this type of choice may not appeal to some customers.
I find placing a large screen protruding so prominently into the dashboard is also a bit of a visual distraction,

Honestly, I have no problem with car technology, I think I would have loved it if the LF-CC concept had become a reality.
If you look at it carefully, it is incredibly beautiful, with details that show the enormous potential that Lexus would have.

Returning to the topic, the dealer is "indoctrinating" me praising the ES as the next car.

His argument is that for the ES Luxury version I would spend only € 65.500,00 that is about € 14.000,00 more than the full optional IS300H Luxury (sunroof and Mark Levison) that I currently drive.

For his respect I have been silent, but I find this marketing idea a bit silly!

€ 14.000,00 is not peanuts.

A TESLA Model 3 AWD "Long Range" with a "full premium" interior I would pay € 58.000,00 excluding any special initiative (ecobonus and so on, that now in Italy are given)

[dutchie01]

66 K euro means there is a LOT of choice.  from 5 series to E class to A6.. From Audi Etron Quattro to Tesla to Evoque to Discovery to Velar and so on. I personally feel that price brings the ES into a segment it cannot compete with. It is just too much money for the car. With the IS disappearing in Europe the ES will fill that gap so i expect pricing to float to that level soon.

[Overland]

24 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

66 K euro means there is a LOT of choice.  from 5 series to E class to A6.. From Audi Etron Quattro to Tesla to Evoque to Discovery to Velar and so on. I personally feel that price brings the ES into a segment it cannot compete with. It is just too much money for the car. With the IS disappearing in Europe the ES will fill that gap so i expect pricing to float to that level soon.

The true price is 68.500,00€ I think they would offer some discount.

Anyway I will never would buy another German car, I had too much problems and would never experience the same story again.

It was horrible.

Lexus show me what is the meaning of reliability and exclusivity.

It’s hard to think to come back to the age of problems with cars

[Spacewagon52]

13 minutes ago, Overland said:

 

It’s hard to think to come back to the age of problems with cars

My sentiments exactly!

[Zotto]

Few days ago I had the opportunity to try a Tesla Model 3, and I have to confess i liked it, BUT mainly for performance, I found the interiors quite cheap and not at the level of any Lexus I drove,  Lexus has a conservative attitude typically japanese aimed to progressive improvements trought tradition,  and I like this, Japans is the most  advanced country and meanwhile very attached to his tradition.

[ganzoom]

9 hours ago, Overland said:

In my opinion, this approach also applies to cars.

They start with concepts that are very advanced, both in design and technology, they titillate us with wonderful ideas that we already imagine we can have in our cars.

Then when the production cars come out, all these ideas are downsized, both for costs and for the real usability of the average buyer, who, in fact, would not know how to use them

Tesla starts from the exact opposite:

 

Very interesting.....

This is the Model S prototype 

and this is what we got.

This is what the Model X Prototype looked like 5 years before production..... 

 

...and this is what our X looks like in real life. 

 

People doubt Tesla will put the Cybertruck in production form as it currently appears, I have no doubts, it'll look just like this. 

 

I understand the conservative approach, but fortune favours the brave and Tesla have introduced whole new approach to car development....

[Spacewagon52]

The average age of Lexus buyers must have some influence on their conservatism. Older people tend not to want dramatic change - they feel safe with what they know!

[Spacewagon52]

5 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

 

Very interesting.....

This is the Model S prototype 

and this is what we got.

This is what the Model X Prototype looked like 5 years before production..... 

 

...and this is what our X looks like in real life. 

 

People doubt Tesla will put the Cybertruck in production form as it currently appears, I have no doubts, it'll look just like this. 

 

I understand the conservative approach, but fortune favours the brave and Tesla have introduced whole new approach to car development....

Hats off to Tesla for trying to break the mould. How heavy is a Tesla without the batteries? I am surprised there has not been more emphasis on reducing the weight of cars. Simple physics suggest greater range and economy. Surely the engineering will be upto modern safety standards. I would not want an electric Reliant Robin!

[Linas.P]

On 10/20/2020 at 12:24 PM, ganzoom said:

Interesting, Tesla has no future in Europe, yet every country (UK included) was falling over themselves to be picked for the next Tesla factory.

You might have also missed the memo on VAG going full in for EVs, Porsche VAG halo brand sees their future as an EV brand. Why else would they choose to display the Taycan as their current flagship instead of the new 911 for all the 70th anniversary marketing materials??

As for all other EVs making more sense than a Tesla for some reason, you might want to check sales figures.

Well... you should quote me in full - I said no short term future. Meaning that they soon going to reach limit in the market, because there are a lot of people who simply can't own Teslas (me included). And that is besides quality issues, which could certainly be improved and I am sure will be improved with factory in Germany - I assume they realised European are not like Amuricans and panel gaps which differ by fair magnitude are not considered acceptable here and therefore they got factory which will be able to make "European quality" cars.

Issue is simple - in country side Tesla "range" is still not enough... and I put range in quotes because it is not the range which is an issue, but the time it takes to recharge and the charging infrastructure. In the city it's much the same - most people don't even have parking spaces, those who do rarely have dedicated spaces and even then almost nobody have chargers available. So you targeting only house owners which driveways or garages - that is very small minority in the cities.

I was looking to buy BMW i8, because it's EV range would mean I almost never need to put petrol in it... the tiny tank would probably last me 6 months or so, and when I want to go for a nice trip I can go "forever" with 5 minute stops to put little bit of dinosaur juice and kick the tyres "for reasons". Problem is - I have nowhere to charge it and buying PHEV supercar as simple hybrid is pretty stupid. Even if I have access to standard socket (which I don't) it would take me 7.5h to charge it, 16h for i3, 26h for UX300e and for Tesla Model S mere 48h to charge - this is just out of question. And how many people have access to 3 phase chargers at home?!

I am sure that once infrastructure improves the electric will be future, but that is not 12 month, but closer to 12 years. What you missing guys is that no matter how great the EV technology is, the UK (and many European countries) power grids are c***. Even where power grids are OK (like France) there are still same issues with city parking and charging points.

@dutchie01 - and whilst Automotive market is indeed in the biggest change for many years, the "autopark" will lag by at least 5-10 years to actually update. And the longer we have issues with infrastructure, the longer this update will be delayed. In fact in UK I cannot see infrastructure improving at any time soon, as it stands today we are already on the limits for peak power and if we start charging electric cars in greater numbers than "dozen" then it will not be capable of sustaining this. And where Tesla could revolutionise industry over year UK electrical grid wont change quickly enough.

Finally, regarding Tesla popularity - it is similar to apple in tech wold, many buyers are simply fans, it may not be most rational purchase, but having Tesla is a fashion, having electric car is a fashion... and I am not saying it is "bad fashion", I am just saying not all decision are rational and some rational decisions are deliberately overlooked, because they are bought with emotions rather than rational decisions.

Although, looking to Cybertruck... it is joke... it is to the level of apple cynicism - "they will by whatever cr** we drop on their face". And they will, indeed they will! Cybertruck in same category of products like this ("just" £949 for a monitor stand):

[Spacewagon52]

Looks a good buy! How big is it? Jodrell Bank size?

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Looks a good buy! How big is it? Jodrell Bank size?

You will need to spend £5000 on the monitor itself (I forgotten to say it is not included), so hold your horses... well unless you want just a stand, but I mean who can argue - work of art! When you have it on your desk - why clutter it with a monitor.... 

[ganzoom]

10 hours ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Hats off to Tesla for trying to break the mould. 

Forget the mould, Tesla may have shattered the work shop!!

Waymo is now running a llimited driverless Taxi service in Atlanta I think. But the test cars look like tanks on wheels with Lidar and extra CPUs.

Take a look at the Tesla version, running off no additional hardware. 

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-full-self-driving-fsd-beta-first-look

What's more amazing our 2017 Model X will be able to do the same, just as soon as we get EU authorisation for the software!!!

So whilst our Lexus IS still cannot even connect to Google Maps for traffic updates, our Tesla looks like it might actually be able to drive it self!!!

As I've said before, Tesla is so far ahead of the tech curve its not funny anymore. If Tesla really have nailed Full Self Driving without needing Lidar and using a CPU barely bigger than a in dash radio, they have just changed the game.....