IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[mpls]

The LF-CC whe it came out as a concept in 2012, i think really set the trend in sleek "edgy" design which  BMW, Audi in particular incorporated into ther design since then .. The LF-CC as we know was released as the 3rd gen IS ( and 1st geb RC) as we know here.. i look back at the BMW 3 series and Audi A4 for years 2012/2013 shows me how forward thinking Lexus has been. Looking on wikioedia shows the LF-CC was designed back in 2010/11. I think my current IS Is300H still looks as fresh as many other cars still being released by other marques to this day.

It ls sad that Lexus has stopped the IS ( as well as RC/CT) in the UK/EU . It;s own downfall was not because of the design but because of poor marketing ,slow technology integration,  undeneath the car as well as lack of differing power trains..  leading to poor sales and lack of notice from potential new customers moving from other brands.

In saying this, the IS still lives on as a refresh ( best looking iteratiion from the LF-CC) in Jaoan, asia and USA etc.  i personally think when the eventual proper 4th or 5th  Gen IS comes, i think will return to UK/EU.

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, mpls said:

i personally think when the eventual proper 4th or 5th  Gen IS comes, i think will return to UK/EU.

Small/medium hatchbacks and SUVs are the only things that sell these days in any meaningful numbers. Unless that changes I cannot see another Lexus saloon being offered in the UK.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, mpls said:

i personally think when the eventual proper 4th or 5th  Gen IS comes, i think will return to UK/EU.

I agree with you on the most points, especially that Lexus brought it upon themselves (being niche player), by giving customer basically no choice when it comes to engines or even equipment, wheels, colours etc. Marketing was hit and miss as well, cars like IS220d and on top of that offered only with manual didn't improve the matter either. Finally, they failed to capture key market for new cars - that is business and fleet buyers. This happened because Lexus failed to adapt to UK tax and emissions requirements, first by not offering low CO2 diesel, later by not offering PHEV. All these factors contributed in cars basically becoming niche, low volume and private sales vehicles.

I agree that current mk3.5 IS is best looking IS ever and I am sad we won't see it here.

The only think I disagree with is that they will bring it back at any time soon. I cannot see any demand in UK and Lexus arguably doesn't even have competitive offering. 300h was never very competitive even from 2013, because at that time diesels dominated, from 2018 car must be PHEV or EV - again Lexus does not offer that.

What will happen for mk 5... nobody knows, this must be at least 10 years away. I highly doubt Lexus even makes proper mk4 at all. But in either case I don't see IS as a model ever being offered in UK.

We may see fully EV or PHEV ES, which may be AWD (see Lexus Direct4 concept video), quite similar to what Volvo does with T8 Dual motor, but I cannot see IS being brought back.

[mpls]

12 hours ago, Linas.P said:

...s. This happened because Lexus failed to adapt to UK tax and emissions requirements, first by not offering low CO2 diesel, later by not offering PHEV. All these factors contributed in cars basically becoming niche, low volume and private sales vehicles.

.....

The only think I disagree with is that they will bring it back at any time soon. I cannot see any demand in UK and Lexus arguably doesn't even have competitive offering. 300h was never very competitive even from 2013, because at that time diesels dominated, from 2018 car must be PHEV or EV - again Lexus does not offer that.

.......

We may see fully EV or PHEV ES, which may be AWD (see Lexus Direct4 concept video), quite similar to what Volvo does with T8 Dual motor, but I cannot see IS being brought back.

When Lexus went fully Hybrid back in 2010/11 ( i think) they fully anticipated the tax changes. It was a bold move. The Germans came out with next Gen diesels beyind the ones that Toyota/Lexus had n the last 2000s. And then into 2014/15 came the whole dieselgate. What does this say about Toyota/Lexus marketing at that time ? I think very slow, crazy minimlistic advertesements , did not emphasise the benefits of Hybrid , it wasnlt just about fuel economy , it ws about smooth refined driving effortless, without the coursness of deisels. They didn;t even pish into business/fleet much ( though i think this was deliberate for this msrket). Then as you say they di not from 2015 quickly bring put PHEVs. And we know they can  from the Toyota PHEV that came out last year. ( again Lexus slow with ts own as the rumoured 450+ not even out yet) . Much too slow.. Other  brands  quckly have cpme out with hybrids last few years, whilst they had been still selling diesels continuosly since when lexus had  already stopped selling diesels, and have also moved onto PHEVs, ad EVs too. Lexus UK/EU did not emphasise their early changes and stance, and did not follow through with products quuckly enough. They still don't, still have "self charging" at its core!

I agree that about the direct4 in the ES, but my idea about the return of IS at some point in the future, will be with a cpmpetieve EV  ( or fuel cell) as  there needs to be an IS sized saloon.  I know the market for saloons is dimishing but there is still a market hence why BMW, Merc, Audi, Vauxhall. Peugeot, volvo.  The low sales numbers for IS were of its own making, and it is very contradcitory for the reason given for discontinouing the CT as i beleive was quite a good seling car.

 

[ColinBarber]

9 minutes ago, mpls said:

it is very contradcitory for the reason given for discontinouing the CT as i beleive was quite a good seling car.

'was' is the word. It has been in decline partly due to its age and partly because the SUVs have taken over. The Corolla hybrid has effectively replaced the CT, and outsells it 13:1 even though they are roughly the same price and the top spec Corolla, which is more expensive than the same CT, outsold all CTs.

Lexus is niche in Europe, probably always will be until the 10% import tariff is wiped away over time. You may not like their direction, or the decisions they have made, but 2019 was their best ever year in terms or vehicle sales and market share in the UK, both stats which were then bettered again in 2020 - so to say their strategy on hybrid only is wrong hasn't played out.

Japanese companies, and Toyota in particular, are conservative and slow - their lack of plug-ins and EVs may well cause them problems in the next few years if there demand really takes off - for now there are too many people with range anxiety to go EV and therefore see hybrid as the best option.

[Linas.P]

35 minutes ago, mpls said:

And then into 2014/15 came the whole dieselgate. What does this say about Toyota/Lexus marketing at that time ? I think very slow, crazy minimlistic advertesements , did not emphasise the benefits of Hybrid , it wasnlt just about fuel economy , it ws about smooth refined driving effortless, without the coursness of deisels. They didn;t even pish into business/fleet much ( though i think this was deliberate for this msrket). Then as you say they di not from 2015 quickly bring put PHEVs. And we know they can  from the Toyota PHEV that came out last year. ( again Lexus slow with ts own as the rumoured 450+ not even out yet) . Much too slow.. Other  brands  quckly have cpme out with hybrids last few years, whilst they had been still selling diesels continuosly since when lexus had  already stopped selling diesels, and have also moved onto PHEVs, ad EVs too. Lexus UK/EU did not emphasise their early changes and stance, and did not follow through with products quuckly enough. They still don't, still have "self charging" at its core!

I agree that about the direct4 in the ES, but my idea about the return of IS at some point in the future, will be with a cpmpetieve EV  ( or fuel cell) as  there needs to be an IS sized saloon.  I know the market for saloons is dimishing but there is still a market hence why BMW, Merc, Audi, Vauxhall. Peugeot, volvo.  The low sales numbers for IS were of its own making, and it is very contradcitory for the reason given for discontinouing the CT as i beleive was quite a good seling car.

 

Again, I completely agree with most of your points, especially that issues of are of Lexus own making. They continuously failed to offer decent choice (even where they had cars readily available in other regions) and they continuously failed to adapt to the market needs. Lucky for them SUVs are booming and that is their final lifeline.

The problem with diesel gate was that it was only bad publicity, but if you look into taxation - diesel remained best option for fleet buyers for a long time, in some cases it still is. One of key things when it comes to high volumes business sales is low tax and low BIK, Lexus always failed in this regard as they simply did not adapt to UK tax benefits very well.

Again you right - other makers managed to be flexible and dynamic. When people anted diesels they offered diesels in all sizes, shapes and prices. When suddenly people didn't want diesels, other makers managed to go from petrol, to turbo petrol, to hybrid and to PHEV in a matter of few years and always offer what people wanted. Lexus was far one of the first in hybrid market (arguably too early) before anyone appreciated hybrids, then by the time people came to appreciate hybrids, the Lexus ones were no longer that good or competitive.

CT may have been good selling car, but not as good selling as UX... and Lexus would rather sell more of UX, that is why CT has to go. I know it seems they have discontinued CT, but as far as I am concerned CT was just replaced with UX.

3 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

for now there are too many people with range anxiety to go EV and therefore see hybrid as the best option.

Sadly taxman does not see it the same way. As for EVs I agree, but PHEVs is best of both worlds.

[Martin J]

25 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Japanese companies, and Toyota in particular, are conservative and slow

I'm not sure I agree with this generalisation. Bringing a hybrid car to large scale production in 1997 was pretty radical, and the brilliant second generation Prius (2003) was the Tesla Model 3 of its era. It's true Toyota have been slow to build on that reputation for innovation by launching BEVs; I'm not sure how much of that has been due to barking up the FCV tree (itself a radical direction).

[Overland]

By the way, are we sure Toyota/Lexus would really move toward full electric vehicles so soon?

Listen what Mr. Toyoda said I will not be so sure.

https://observer.com/2020/12/toyota-akio-toyoda-electric-vehicle-japan-transition/

 I understood they are investing in this PHEW's, but that they don't believe so much in them as a unique strategy for the future of Toyota (and probably Lexus).

Remember that the Mirai (introduced in 2015) is actually very interesting, sales number in USA are not so big. but about 1500 cars in 2019 and 500 in 2020 in full pandemic was not bad.
I don't have numbers in Japan, but everytime I go there, I see lot of them around.


Said all that, after several research, thinking a lot and reading lot of discussion on other hybrid tech from other manufacturers, reading also the opinions here about Telsa, that change mu mind about it, I am now very convinced that actually Hybrid Synergy Drive is the best technology that it worth to have in this particular moment and for almost the next three/four year, when probably we will definitely discover what Lexus have reserved for us.
 

[ColinBarber]

30 minutes ago, Martin J said:

I'm not sure I agree with this generalisation. Bringing a hybrid car to large scale production in 1997 was pretty radical, and the brilliant second generation Prius (2003) was the Tesla Model 3 of its era.

Yes I'm not saying they are not innovative but they are conservative in making sure it is ultra reliable and over-engineered before coming to market. Once they put something into production they tend not to deviate or move to shorter design cycles, even when you see the market has moved. Their vehicle sales massive decline as they age but they stick closely to their 6 year production cycle.

They were the last major manufacturer to put Carplay/Android Auto functionality on their infotainment systems because they wanted to keep control and, incorrectly, believe their system is better.

They are very reluctant to move to Lithium-Ion batteries in their hybrids, even though it will be lighter and therefore increase space, reduce weight and improve mpg over the Ni-MH.

Given the world of technology is now driving the vehicle industry, with lots of manufacturers rapidly developing new ideas they need to be careful not to be left behind. I'm not suggesting they become like VW and launch an ID.3 with multiple software bugs but they need to move at a quicker pace.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Overland said:

Remember that the Mirai (introduced in 2015) is actually very interesting, sales number in USA are not so big. but about 1500 cars in 2019 and 500 in 2020 in full pandemic was not bad.

They just launched new Mirai last year... problem with Mirai is not the car, but where to refuel it. In US... you can pretty much drive HCEV in California... in the rest of US.. not so much. Same in UK... something like 17 stations in whole country. So it is not the car which is a problem, it is refuelling. 

[Overland]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

They just launched new Mirai last year... problem with Mirai is not the car, but where to refuel it. In US... you can pretty much drive HCEV in California... in the rest of US.. not so much. Same in UK... something like 17 stations in whole country. So it is not the car which is a problem, it is refuelling. 

Yes, but it was the same for the phew's now even in my lost village in the hills where I live, we have several point of charge.

[Linas.P]

Just now, Overland said:

Yes, but it was the same for the phew's now even in my lost village in the hills where I live, we have several point of charge.

Yes, but here we are talking about population as a whole, not me or you. Overall, there are far more people who can charge BEVs, and far more charging points overall than there are places to charge HCEVs.

BEVs are non-starter for me as well... I was contemplating BMW i8 for long time, but I just have place whereto charge it... and it isn't even BEV, it is just PHEV.

Sadly again - our government does not see it this way. Majority of the people can own hybrids and that would quickly and realistically reduce emissions, but government does not support this and one would need to pay full road tax for them and same BIK as most of ICE cars. Nor hybrids are available for employee car schemes either.

The only cars which are really promoted now are full EVs, but realistically there are many people who not only cannot afford them, but can't charge them at all, especially in the cities where it would be most beneficial. 

[ganzoom]

16 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Given the world of technology is now driving the vehicle industry, with lots of manufacturers rapidly developing new ideas they need to be careful not to be left behind.

It's not just the actual tech, but new ways they are been developed.

The reason VW was 'comfortable' pushing out the ID3 with incomplete software and than updating it was because of how disruptive Tesla has been. Jaguar did the same with the iPace and Polstar is also following.

The days when you buy a car and expect nothing to change with its functionality is well and truly over. Cars are now essentially computer on wheels, does anyone expect to buy a brand new computer and not to get new features or bug fixes as time goes on.

 

Interms of software development getting end user engagement always finds bugs internal testing cannot identify, and its far quicker/cheaper.

 

Tesla has now pushed this approach to autonomous self driving software, and its likely with this approach they are actually going to beat Google to achieving full autonomony first. Google has actually been very conservative in their approach to testing autonomous driving.

 

Our Tesla is 4 years old now, and its likely when it turns 5 the software currently been developed by Tesla for autonomous driving will land on the car. How much software developments do Toyota/Lexus push out to their cars at 5 years??

 

Toyota/Lexus need to turn their current approach to product development upside down. The whole industry is now following in the foot steps set out by Tesla, VAG in particular have gone all in. Yes they made mistakes with the ID3 roll out but they are learning fast, where as Toyota/Lexus run the real chance of looking totally out of their depth.

 

By the time the current generation of 20 somethings can afford a Lexus, they will DEMAND a car that will gain software functions over time, with full connectivity and integration with all their devices. 

 

The world is changing fast, and time/progress waits for no one.

 

https://electrek.co/2021/03/12/tesla-removed-drivers-werent-paying-attention-from-full-self-driving-beta/

[paulrnx]

Good job you lot aren’t running Lexus then. Let’s make loads of small saloons that fewer people in the UK want. Then lets make fewer SUVs that many people in the UK want. That should do it.

[Bounce75]

13 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Good job you lot aren’t running Lexus then. Let’s make loads of small saloons that fewer people in the UK want. Then lets make fewer SUVs that many people in the UK want. That should do it.

You make a good point there.

Over the last year, I know 7 people who have bought new/nearly new cars myself included, 2 saloons Lexus & Audi, 1 electric iPace & 4 SUV's 1 Merc GLA, 1  Volvo XC40, 1 VW T-roc & Ford Kuga.

Only one of them has a small child, the rest have grown up children, so there is definitely a trend in the UK.

[Overland]

The trend of miniSUV, Crossover, mid-size SUV is so strong even in Italy.

The most seen are Hyundai, Kia (low prices, design copycat and Diesel) they are the most commons.

Then, Nissan Qasqai and some little Kuga.

NX good, UX increasing.

Sedans or wagon and of course coupè about disappeared if we talk new cars.

If we talk Audi or BMW or Mercedes the most commonly is that big crossover mix from a sedan and a SUV and smalls: A class or Series 1

So the trend, in any way exclude Lexus in the taste of Italians, as it result from a couple of dealer I have visiting in the last few months, that customers want the most cheaper NX or UX, they search bargains, demo cars, used and so on.

Mostly of the customers come after few weeks disappointing about the drive, and the engine: at the moment of purchase some ask where is the plug for the charge.

Lot of confusion.

But here in Italy Lexus do nothing to explain, engage, and so on.