IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Beduffshirl]

LF-30 will do me. Just not sure where to put the golf clubs !!

Makes Tesla look like a Mini Metro with a ZX Spectrum inside

https://www.lexus.com/concept/LF-30-Electrified/#:~:text=The Lexus LF-30 Electrified is more than a concept,driving experience like no other

[dutchie01]

Well said gang and i do more or less understand it. Any car should have emotion in its DNA and that is becoming more rare nowadays. It reminds me a bit of owning an Alfa in the nineties. Buildquality was well below par and you would get stuck everywhere but still people ( like me ) wanted to have one, to own one, to be part of the heritage to join that exclusive club fitting ones personality. i think it may well be thesame for you? Having said that i still think the overwhelming majority of Tesla owners made the decision with their wallet and then i mean fiscal stimulation. Take the model S and X for instance. overhere costing in excess well over 100k but hey, no fiscal add ons at all meaning driving at zero (0) cost if it is a company car. Needless to say they sold like hot cakes. Beginning 2020 the fiscal regulation changed to 8% add to 50k and 22% for the rest. Guess what happened? S and X dead with zero sale overnight and everybody flocking to the model 3. What will happen with Tesla if in 2 years the fiscal stimulation totally disappears? will only the true Tesla fans keep buying them?

And if Tesla wants to get new customers or retain the current ones, they have to offer something more than what they do now.. There is trouble coming quickly as Audi, Merc, BMW Volkswagen, Skoda have now started releasing full EVs at a relentless pace. cars with impeccable buildquality and electronic dashboards to wow customers. Take the new Skoda Enyaq. It is one third cheaper than the model 3 and well screwed together. Yes it does not have the Tesla/Apple image but like i said most people dont care they decide with their wallet.

As you see it is not a black and white decision. Everyone for their own and just whats good for you. ( but i would not buy Tesla shares at the moment).

 

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

And if Tesla wants to get new customers or retain the current ones, they have to offer something more than what they do now...

Yet this thread is about LEXUS pulling out of the small saloon market in Europe whilst Tesla's best selling model is a small saloon.

I had to take the day off work today due to COVID and school bubbles. Yes things like having Netflix ondemand in the car seems trivial, but its amazingly how useful it is if you have access to it. Its stuff like this which is why we love our Tesla so much as a family car, and barely use the IS beyond commuting for my wife.

As I've said Lexus have ALOT of catching up to do, and if CEOs at Toyota don't recognise that than Lexus will simply disappear into the history books.

[Overland]

20 minutes ago, Beduffshirl said:

LF-30 will do me. Just not sure where to put the golf clubs !!

Makes Tesla look like a Mini Metro with a ZX Spectrum inside

https://www.lexus.com/concept/LF-30-Electrified/#:~:text=The Lexus LF-30 Electrified is more than a concept,driving experience like no other

Sure, sci-fi is always a theme from where to start for designers and engineers.

Lexus is the best in the world  to tell marketing stories showing beautiful things that at the moment of the commercial launch are totally different.

If we imagine that LF-CC was the concept of IS, we can say that only few elements of interior design was them developed.

From an all screen dashboard to a small 7" low res screen and all that buttons in plastic to push.

I think the truth stay in the middle some brands are looking forward, some other are conservative: I agree totally with who said "Lexus (and not only) should look also to the competitors like Tesla and try to improve technology, interface, comfort, design, form/function"

You cannot compete in the market of the future with only a good reputation in reliability.


 

[ganzoom]

Someone here said Tesla aren't a competitors for Lexus, how about BMW?

Here is what BMW are now doing, in car dashcam recording from multiple angles (like Tesla). Where is this option for Lexus? Are Lexus even considering it??

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

Someone here said Tesla aren't a competitors for Lexus, how about BMW?

Here is what BMW are now doing, in car dashcam recording from multiple angles (like Tesla). Where is this option for Lexus? Are Lexus even considering it??

First of all, why this does not have as much impact as it could have

I absolutely agree, when BMW, MB and Audi starts including this as standard it will become an issue for Lexus.You see with Lexus you generally get few trim levels (Luxury, F-sport, Premier) and few options (Premium-Nav, Sunroof and ML). That is it - if you take for example F-Sport + P/Nav/ML you car will have every single feature available for it as standard.

It is not like that with BMW or MB - there you have list of 300 options, all of which are paid extras and you could have nearly indefinite number of combinations of what is fitted to the car. Yes BMW has 360 camera option and Lexus does not (except of NX for some weird reason), yes BMW has perhaps this dashcam option and Lexus does not... However, in the end of the day very very few people choose to add £1000 optional dashcam in their car when ordering and in 90% of the case average Lexus for the same year will be better equipped than average BMW - because with Lexus you pretty much get all the option with the trim you choose.

Now all that said, again I agree that tech in Lexus is behind say BMW, but the issues Lexus have is mostly not deal-braking e.g. I could not care less if Lexus offers built in dash-cam or not, if I really need one it could be fitted for £100. Yes - not having android auto is an issue for me, but Lexus has it now.

It may not satisfy you, but many people appreciates "tried and tested technology working" rather than "novelty and gimmick new stuff which only works sometimes". I know you may disagree and you have shown some sources where apparently Tesla owners are very happy with their purchase, yet I still need to see any major survey showing that.

Secondly, why Lexus saloons do no sell

This is partially related to what @dutchie01 said. Tesla is beneficial to own because government supports the sales, without government support Tesla would not shift any cars. Same applies to cars like BMW 330e, MB 300e - those sells in big numbers... why? Because they are eligible company cars as such people get them via work tax free with only small percentage of BIK. Fleet buyers buys the due to low tax as well. 

Lexus made major mistake with 300h, because 300h is not eligible as company car since ~2017 (or 2018) due to stupid changes in taxation and CO2 calculations. So people who buy them generally have to be cash buyers or finance them after tax and it automatically limits the number of cars sold.

Besides Lexus strategy in Europe is overall flawed in my opinion, without having brand recognition they have in US, they tried selling their cars at premium over established luxury brands, not only that they only brought 20% of their line-up to this battle and obviously lost. They never even meant to succeed.

So whole sales thing, is not because Teslas  or BMWs are such a great cars and people like them, it is because they are promoted by taxation and are just fiscally beneficial to own.

 

[paulrnx]

Lexus pulling these cars out of the UK probably has more to do with a very large proportion of their sales being SUVs. I happen to think they might do better if they had a much wider engine choice for each model. I think more BMW, Merc and Audi drivers would consider a Lexus if they did this.

[royoftherovers]

10 hours ago, paulrnx said:

Lexus pulling these cars out of the UK probably has more to do with a very large proportion of their sales being SUVs. I happen to think they might do better if they had a much wider engine choice for each model. I think more BMW, Merc and Audi drivers would consider a Lexus if they did this.

I think that Linas would salute you Paul !

[Linas.P]

wow... indeed - it seems I am not the only one who is changing 😁

[royoftherovers]

16 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

wow... indeed - it seems I am not the only one who is changing 😁

It`s a really nice place to be, innit ole pal ?

[paulrnx]

29 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

wow... indeed - it seems I am not the only one who is changing 😁

👍 We won’t always agree but we do on this! 😀

[paulrnx]

I’ve spoken to two dealerships recently and they both said well over 70% of their sales were SUVs. One said if they could get hold of more SUVs they’d sell even more. If you want to stick to a compact sports saloon or coupe then it would appear that you have to jump ship to another marque. In the UK at least.

[doog442]

3 hours ago, paulrnx said:

I’ve spoken to two dealerships recently and they both said well over 70% of their sales were SUVs. One said if they could get hold of more SUVs they’d sell even more. If you want to stick to a compact sports saloon or coupe then it would appear that you have to jump ship to another marque. In the UK at least.

I've done this twice  since 2014. I jumped from an IS200 to a 135i as the IS250 was literally 'dead weight' and such a wasted opportunity, came back for the IS200t (Linas will tell you about them  ) then left again for another six pot bimmer. I'm only hanging around as I've been looking at getting on the RCF bandwagon ....oh yeah and its a decent forum.

My dealer has a line of IS's and RC 300H's literally gathering dust (or seagull crap). I know we've had a couple of lockdowns but these cars have been stationary for nearly a year whilst they slowly inch the prices down.  It seems one car becomes the demo, then a new demo rocks up and its just full of demos that no one is buying.  

The SUV thing is just daft. Have you seen the room in the boot of a UX, a complete joke. 

[paulrnx]

SUVs are more comfortable for a lot of people. I’ve mostly had sports saloons in my life with quite a few hot hatchbacks in my twenties. I’ve had three SUVs now - a V8 X5 in 2007-2008, an NX300 in 2017-2018 and another NX300 for the last 4 months. I’m older now (57) and I care less about handling and roadholding and much more about comfort and retirement. I have no ailments or mobility issues but my days of getting down into a low slung sports saloon are gone now. With the ever increasing move to larger wheels and ultra low profile tyres they just feel uncomfortable to me and round where I live the roads make them horrible to drive. I occasionally still drive my wife’s Mini Cooper for a bit of fun but an SUV better fits my life in lots of ways.

[doog442]

2 hours ago, paulrnx said:

SUVs are more comfortable for a lot of people. I’ve mostly had sports saloons in my life with quite a few hot hatchbacks in my twenties. I’ve had three SUVs now - a V8 X5 in 2007-2008, an NX300 in 2017-2018 and another NX300 for the last 4 months. I’m older now (57) and I care less about handling and roadholding and much more about comfort and retirement. I have no ailments or mobility issues but my days of getting down into a low slung sports saloon are gone now. With the ever increasing move to larger wheels and ultra low profile tyres they just feel uncomfortable to me and round where I live the roads make them horrible to drive. I occasionally still drive my wife’s Mini Cooper for a bit of fun but an SUV better fits my life in lots of ways.

Age wise, we're probably not that far apart. I've had back operations and the lure of an SUV is there in that respect but no further I guess but I absolutely understand the reasons. The daft thing is that I can get my golf clubs and electric golf trolley into an IS but for the life of me without lowering seats or some kind of jiggery pokery an NX or UX is just too narrow. 

So  I'm with Linas. I really think Lexus missed a trick by not bringing the RC 350 to the UK ...that said we've agreed on this matter since time began. 

[paulrnx]

No doubt in my mind that Lexus has remained a niche marque in the UK partly due to the narrow choice of engines in their line-up. Agreed. It might have been different had they done so and we might not now be discussing this thread.
 

I’ve attended the Goodwood Festival of Speed for as long as I care to remember and it was only just recently that Lexus had a stand there. It is the UK motorshow and has been for years. The Audi, Merc, Jaguar and BMW stands were always rammed full with people. I repeatedly contacted Lexus marketing to ask them why they didn’t attend it. When they finally did only fairly recently my mate - a dedicated Audi fan - said he couldn’t believe how good the cars looked on the Lexus stand and he’d have been tempted to give the NX a look instead of a Q5. How many people might have been tempted to have a Lexus with a bigger engine choice for each model and some determined marketing. Very sad really.

[Mincey]

19 hours ago, paulrnx said:

One said if they could get hold of more SUVs they’d sell even more. If you want to stick to a compact sports saloon or coupe then it would appear that you have to jump ship to another marque. In the UK at least.

 I recall a Lexus salesman telling me in 2008 that if they made a hatchback, they'd be able to sell more than they could produce. Hmm. So how come Leicestershire isn't festooned with CTs then....?

[royoftherovers]

In today`s Daily Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/do-tesla-travails-suggest-self-driving-technology-isnt-dependable/

[Mincey]

3 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

In today`s Daily Telegraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/advice/do-tesla-travails-suggest-self-driving-technology-isnt-dependable/

It's behind a paywall John - shame as it (and several other stories there!) looked rather interesting. Can you do a copy and paste perhaps... 😉

[royoftherovers]

16 minutes ago, Mincey said:

It's behind a paywall John - shame as it (and several other stories there!) looked rather interesting. Can you do a copy and paste perhaps... 😉

James, see below matey.

Do Tesla travails suggest that self-driving technology isn't dependable enough? 

Doubts persist as to the efficacy of driverless cars. Sometimes, it seems, such vehicles appear to want to do their own thing

ByJames Foxall11 November 2020 • 6:23pm

A reader says his Tesla Model 3 was involved in a series of mysterious braking incidents

This might sound like a story about a haunted car; if nothing else, it serves as a salutary tale about the possible perils of self-driving technology. 

Telegraph reader Geoff Holman took delivery of his 70-registration Tesla Model 3 in September this year. The 200 or so miles he’s covered since have been punctuated by a series of incidents caused by his car doing its own thing. And when he told Tesla, its response was pretty much: “It can do that.”

The retired biochemist from Knutsford, Cheshire told me: “I’ve now had five autobraking incidents, none of which was necessary and two were potentially dangerous. The car brakes suddenly and in my experience quite violently for no reason. No car in front of me, no car coming the other way, not even a squirrel running across the road.”

But Mr Holman was more concerned about what he considers to be Tesla’s apparently cavalier response. When he asked his dealer to get to the bottom of the car’s behaviour, a Tesla representative replied: “We found no hardware issues with the Autopilot system at the times you provided. Please note that this feature may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately.”

The Autopilot function of the larger Model S has also had a few glitches, according to Tesla owners' forums

This is hardly a ringing endorsement of Tesla’s self-driving technology. But much of it is lifted direct from the car’s user manual. Mr Holman added: “Even if it is a disclaimer in the user manual, the system shouldn’t be allowed on the road. If it was a person seeing ‘things that do not exist,’ they’d be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.” 

His experiences aren’t limited to sudden unexpected braking. He said: “On one occasion I deliberately moved into the middle of the road to avoid debris. There were no cars coming in the opposite direction. The car yanked me violently back into my lane.”

After investigating his car, Tesla replied: “At 13:21:59 a lane departure warning was flagged as the vehicle was detected to be drifting out of lane with no hands on the steering wheel. This is a safety feature of Autopilot system designed (sic). Autopilot is currently operating as designed.”

To which Mr Holman said: “Again, I think it was reacting to something that wasn’t there. I was driving my wife back from hospital. The idea that I would take my hands off the wheel under those circumstances is frankly absurd.”

Thankfully none of these incidents caused any injury. However, Mr Holman’s Tesla has prompted kerb damage to two wheels. He recalled: “I was driving along a winding road when the radio suddenly came on by itself at full blast with loud music, together with a simultaneous visual on the screen. I was so startled I temporarily lost control of the car and hit the kerb at about 45mph. There is no possibility of my accidentally touching one of the audio controls: the station that came on was Radio 2, which I never listen to.”

Tesla has so far offered no reason for this audio aberration. The company is still investigating and when we spoke to Tesla it didn’t want to add to its representatives’ statements.

Autonomous cars are a dream for some, but safety concerns persist

Meanwhile, Mr Holman’s confidence in his car is now so low he’s considering rejecting it. And his faith in self-driving technology is equally shattered. “From my experience, we’re a long way from this technology being reliable enough for everyday use,” he said.

Mr Holman’s 3 may well be a badly behaved one-off. But the caveats in the user manual show that Tesla is clearly prepared for Autopilot to display heightened sensitivity even to sometimes non-existent obstructions in the road. 

The US firm and other manufacturers obviously work within strict safety guidelines. Whether that legislation needs adjusting before there are some horrible accidents is another question.

For new and used bu

 

[Spacewagon52]

It does look like a case of owners testing out the cars software for Tesla. 

If you buy a Tesla I would highly recommend READING THE MANUAL!

[ganzoom]

@royoftherovers Am suprised you haven't come across US owners who sued Tesla for 'mis selling' Autopilot, they won a court case in the US, Tesla refunded each of them $100......In return for the $100 they will never get access to the new Autopilot software that is now coming, great outcome for those owners, that $100 must be really worth all the effort :).

 

 

[ganzoom]

The Autopilot software is currently been updated weekly, and its starting to get very good.

https://youtu.be/VVfCwznHbSk

[Mincey]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

James, see below matey.

 

Champion! Thank John :-)

[Linas.P]

Gang, what is your agenda? Why are you so hell bent to prove that Tesla Autopilot is not just a beta version of the software? At first I just though you are just enthusiastic about new technology, but your repeatedly put videos of the same test system begin tested, claiming it is somehow more than it is - just a very limited beta version of level 2 drivers assistance and not any form of autonomy. This is just suspicious!

Not only it costs $10,000 to test, but as well it does not add any value due to legal constrains. Even Tesla clearly states that :

That it is being updated weekly means nothing at all! if anything that is just a proof that system is being developed as we speak and thus needs constant bug fixes and "weekly updates". This is not indication of it being good, rather opposite - it is indication of system being incomplete and unreliable.