IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[dutchie01]

37 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

As I've already shown you, the car can actually drive it self with no one in it, so you can do what you want. Here's another example. 

Can you find me a Lexus that will do the same? Again that's a Model 3, £40k, you can go and buy one tomorrow.

 

Sorry Gang i admire your enthusiasm for this but i just dont get it. Seems more like a circus act to me, a gimmick you show your friends when leaving the pub.

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Sorry Gang i admire your enthusiasm for this but i just dont get it. Seems more like a circus act to me, a gimmick you show your friends when leaving the pub.

Exactly, I remember ~2010 there was big hype of "self parking cars" and now it somehow died out. It sounds great in theory (and I hate parallel parking myself), but when you try to use it in practice it never works and the only time it works are places which are so obvious and easy to park that anyone could do it anyway. 

[dutchie01]

www.teslaclaim.nl 

2 weeks ago some deeply disappointed Dutch Tesla drivers came together and decided to form a cooperation to prepare a tesla claim. Within 2 weeks some 200 other owners joined. All issues are on their website above have a look. To speed up translation here are some of the issues;

Bad functioning autopilot ( !! ) - Windscreenwipers not working - hammering noise during accelleration - cracking noise when driving over speedbumps - strips falling off - lighting not functioning properly - doors that will not open - doors opening spontaneously - broken computer - yellow lines around screen - windows not closing fully -  carkit not working - problems during charging - reduced power - smaller range than Tesla promises. 

Can you find me a Lexus that will do thesame?

Can you give me details of Lexusclaim or Toyotaclaim?

Gang, software and cool screens in the interior are only one part of the total sum that defines quality. You also gave numerous examples of all things that broke on your Tesla.

Traditional automotive companies like Toyota/Lexus test and test and test before releasing a product. Tesla does it the other way around like all softwarecompanies do. Just release it and we will repair it on the go. 

You can be an enthusiastic ambassador of the Tesla software systems but please do realize you will never be able to say the Tesla is a quality product. Full Stop.     

[J Henderson]

 

25 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Exactly, I remember ~2010 there was big hype of "self parking cars" and now it somehow died out. It sounds great in theory (and I hate parallel parking myself), but when you try to use it in practice it never works and the only time it works are places which are so obvious and easy to park that anyone could do it anyway. 

And didn't it appear first on a Lexus?! 

[royoftherovers]

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

www.teslaclaim.nl 

2 weeks ago some deeply disappointed Dutch Tesla drivers came together and decided to form a cooperation to prepare a tesla claim. Within 2 weeks some 200 other owners joined. All issues are on their website above have a look. To speed up translation here are some of the issues;

Bad functioning autopilot ( !! ) - Windscreenwipers not working - hammering noise during accelleration - cracking noise when driving over speedbumps - strips falling off - lighting not functioning properly - doors that will not open - doors opening spontaneously - broken computer - yellow lines around screen - windows not closing fully -  carkit not working - problems during charging - reduced power - smaller range than Tesla promises. 

Can you find me a Lexus that will do thesame?

Can you give me details of Lexusclaim or Toyotaclaim?

Gang, software and cool screens in the interior are only one part of the total sum that defines quality. You also gave numerous examples of all things that broke on your Tesla.

Traditional automotive companies like Toyota/Lexus test and test and test before releasing a product. Tesla does it the other way around like all softwarecompanies do. Just release it and we will repair it on the go. 

You can be an enthusiastic ambassador of the Tesla software systems but please do realize you will never be able to say the Tesla is a quality product. Full Stop.     

Mr Gang has been more tenacious in his spreading of the Tesla message than I would expect the man on the Clapham Omnibus to be and the thought has crossed my mind on several occasions;

Does he have so much financial resource that he can afford to run an unreliable vehicle?

Does he actually own the Tesla or has it been provided to him for some reason?

Does he stand to gain from the increased sale of Tesla vehicles?

Does he stand to gain from the increased sale of electricity/ extension of the National Grid?

Does he stand to gain from increased investment in AI?

Does he have some other substantial reason for his messianic messages apart from enthusiastic optimism? 

I understand that one can be enthusiastic about things, but one cannot help but question one`s motives for introducing the day after tomorrow, today..

Just my thoughts borne out of reading this thread.

[Linas.P]

35 minutes ago, J Henderson said:

And didn't it appear first on a Lexus?! 

Apparently, this was first fitted to Toyota Prius, then LS and then Ford and BMW followed the suit. Currently only Koreans are keen on it - like KIA and Hyundai. 

In UK we associate this technology to Lexus because of Top Gear and them showing how LS miserably fails the attempt to park itself.

 

[dutchie01]

If you have some spare time during lockdown just go to Savagegeese on youtube Tesla 3. In my opinion this will give you a balanced view of the Tesla company/operations and the model 3.

 

 

 

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

If you have some spare time during lockdown just go to Savagegeese on youtube Tesla 3. In my opinion this will give you a balanced view of the Tesla company/operations and the model 3.

 

 

 

Excellent link Bernard. Thank you.

 

[ganzoom]

15 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

 I understand that one can be enthusiastic about things, but one cannot help but question one`s motives for introducing the day after tomorrow, today..

I simply cannot understand why people so many people prefer to live in the past rather than the future.

I'm lucky enough to have the financial means to afford new technologies, but equally at £40k Teslas are now at a price point not far off what most Lexus owners can afford.

I guess I rather live in a world where we can dream to achieve the impossible :).

[RichGS11]

16 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

www.teslaclaim.nl 

2 weeks ago some deeply disappointed Dutch Tesla drivers came together and decided to form a cooperation to prepare a tesla claim. Within 2 weeks some 200 other owners joined. All issues are on their website above have a look. To speed up translation here are some of the issues;

Bad functioning autopilot ( !! ) - Windscreenwipers not working - hammering noise during accelleration - cracking noise when driving over speedbumps - strips falling off - lighting not functioning properly - doors that will not open - doors opening spontaneously - broken computer - yellow lines around screen - windows not closing fully -  carkit not working - problems during charging - reduced power - smaller range than Tesla promises. 

Can you find me a Lexus that will do thesame?

Can you give me details of Lexusclaim or Toyotaclaim?

Gang, software and cool screens in the interior are only one part of the total sum that defines quality. You also gave numerous examples of all things that broke on your Tesla.

Traditional automotive companies like Toyota/Lexus test and test and test before releasing a product. Tesla does it the other way around like all softwarecompanies do. Just release it and we will repair it on the go. 

You can be an enthusiastic ambassador of the Tesla software systems but please do realize you will never be able to say the Tesla is a quality product. Full Stop.     

Let us please not forget the Toyota brake and acceleration issues that claimed the lives of over 30 people and caused a combined recall of over 9 million vehicles worldwide. 

No manufacturer has a clean record for producing perfect cars. Lexus and Toyota may have fantastic records presently, but it hasn't always been that way.

[Mincey]

48 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Excellent link Bernard. Thank you.

 

Thanks for that John - most enjoyable. I think I'll take his advice and wait to see what happens. I couldn't live with that interior - I'm far too stuck in the past. Give me a nice set of buttons and levers any day.

[Linas.P]

37 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

Toyota brake and acceleration issues

So called "unintended acceleration" issue is not a mark against automaker, it is just (1) a proof that some people are so retarded they they cannot operate 2 pedals correctly and (2) that in US you can make completely baseless claims and win in court. As result now we have stupid built in delay in acceleration which needs to be "programmed-out" for the controls to be responsive again.

As well, I understand some more complex issues which are mechanical and may need very specific circumstances to reproduce. Here we talking about doors not closing and not opening - I mean c'mon that is absolute basics.

If you haven't tried Tesla I really recommend doing it. Everything was flexing, rattling and squeaking around. I was afraid to use moderate force to close the doors because it felt like I will rip the door handle off. If I would inspect 200,000 miles Lexus and see panel gaps like on Tesla I would walk away because I would assume car was in accident and body integrity is compromised. Both cars I tried were brand new demonstrators (I think Model 3 had 1500 miles and S was ~8000) and they were literally disintegrating around me!

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

I simply cannot understand why people so many people prefer to live in the past rather than the future.

but equally at £40k (actually 50k if you consider £10k for incomplete autopilot) Teslas are now at a price point not far off what most Lexus owners can afford.

I guess I rather live in a world where we can dream to achieve the impossible :).

No - many people prefer to live at present, rather than dream about the future. Never mind paying today without any guarantees for it to become reality tomorrow.

Many Lexus owners can afford many thing, but "affordable" is not the same as "good value" or "good choice" or "good technology". Can I afford Iphone - yes I can, but I choose not to because I consider it inferior, based on specifications and functionality. Same for Tesla - could I afford it... yes I can, but I don't want to because it is not a good car.

And that is evident, dreaming about things which are impossible to achieve - like level 5 automation with simply DL algorithm.  

[Overland]

The information about Tesla that this discussion has developed has been a lot and has drawn the attention to different and sometimes very conflicting opinions and this certainly can help those who actually find themselves in the dilemma of ending their relationship with Lexus and starting a new path.

For many it could be the end of a very long "marriage", based on a series of values that Lexus has been able to transmit: customer approach, exclusivity, technological research (the first truly hybrid engines) innovation in design, identity and spirit of membership.

But I would like to return to the full topic: or the purchase of a Lexus, when the "pay per drive" expires.

Over the years, I have been saying this as a customer since 2004, some of the above values have been lost in my country.

Customer service is paradoxically painful, where others were losers, they are now better than Lexus.

Attention, I'm not talking about the quality of the product: I'm talking about the approach to the customer.

The dealerships have been incorporated into the Toyota dealerships, the mechanics, customer care, customer reception have changed.

Where the Lexus dealership welcomed you as a privileged customer, you are now considered neither more nor less than someone who buys a Yaris.
But worse still, the Rome office, which manages Lexus in Italy, has essentially become a call center that doesn't seem to know what to say.

They respond to each request with generic links, even out of context.
If a customer asks (as I did) why IS and RC are no longer present (to see their answer) they reply with a copied sentence and a link to the NX.

In my opinion, this approach would not have been tolerated in the past.

When I bought my IS250 and I had problems with the suspension, they sent an engineer from Rome to try my car to help the dealership who couldn't find the problem.

Every year, on the day of the birthday came a present: now these things don't happen anymore.

Having said all this, the question I ask is:

"at a time when we customers of the older generation, who have given great value to these aspects, having to change cars, even wanting to stay in Lexus, therefore buying a car that is not exactly what we would like (and I realize as I write that this is very stupid!) but since he loves the hybrid engine and the spirit of belonging he is willing to make this sacrifice: how should one ask, compared to the fact that Tesla's customer service would seem, according to some, to be much more accurate and performing, with a customer approach that is very reminiscent of the old Lexus? "

In the cost value of a Lexus, let's say in the purchase of an ES Luxury, which in Italy costs € 68,000, shouldn't the value of a high-end customer service also be included? An exclusivity that is part of the experience?

Can we say that Lexus's decline is also due to the loss of these core values?

When the other brands, on the other hand, have learned their lesson and are very attentive to luxury, understood as "an exclusive approach to the customer"?

I don't know about you, I speak for myself, but not all customers love the roar of the engines, the "skidding", the high-performance suspension and 0-100 acceleration.

I regret the days when the customer care at the Lexus dealership greeted me with a glass of wine, a chat and the mechanics were like surgeons who knew exactly where to put their hands.

The last service done, entering the Toyota workshop I was really scared for my IS and I asked myself: where the hell am I!

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

I simply cannot understand why people so many people prefer to live in the past rather than the future.

I'm lucky enough to have the financial means to afford new technologies, but equally at £40k Teslas are now at a price point not far off what most Lexus owners can afford.

I guess I rather live in a world where we can dream to achieve the impossible :).

As the great man said "Perception is everything"

I looked for you but did not see your name on the passenger list Mr Ganzoom.

[RichGS11]

50 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

So called "unintended acceleration" issue is not a mark against automaker, it is just (1) a proof that some people are so retarded they they cannot operate 2 pedals correctly and (2) that in US you can make completely baseless claims and win in court. As result now we have stupid built in delay in acceleration which needs to be "programmed-out" for the controls to be responsive again.

As well, I understand some more complex issues which are mechanical and may need very specific circumstances to reproduce. Here we talking about doors not closing and not opening - I mean c'mon that is absolute basics.

If you haven't tried Tesla I really recommend doing it. Everything was flexing, rattling and squeaking around. I was afraid to use moderate force to close the doors because it felt like I will rip the door handle off. If I would inspect 200,000 miles Lexus and see panel gaps like on Tesla I would walk away because I would assume car was in accident and body integrity is compromised. Both cars I tried were brand new demonstrators (I think Model 3 had 1500 miles and S was ~8000) and they were literally disintegrating around me!

No - many people prefer to live at present, rather than dream about the future. Never mind paying today without any guarantees for it to become reality tomorrow.

Many Lexus owners can afford many thing, but "affordable" is not the same as "good value" or "good choice" or "good technology". Can I afford iPhone - yes I can, but I choose not to because I consider it inferior, based on specifications and functionality. Same for Tesla - could I afford it... yes I can, but I don't want to because it is not a good car.

And that is evident, dreaming about things which are impossible to achieve - like level 5 automation with simply DL algorithm.  

I have tried Tesla, we have two in the family and none of the issues mentioned in this post are present in either vehicle. I'm by no means a Tesla fan boy, my next purchase is another Lexus (ISF), but I also don't understand that 'slamming' of another brand just because someone on here likes the Tesla they own.

I am speaking from unbiased experiences.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, RichGS11 said:

Let us please not forget the Toyota brake and acceleration issues that claimed the lives of over 30 people and caused a combined recall of over 9 million vehicles worldwide. 

No manufacturer has a clean record for producing perfect cars. Lexus and Toyota may have fantastic records presently, but it hasn't always been that way.

I had forgotten these issues so I Googled and this came up. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/who-was-really-at-fault-for-the-toyota-recalls/238076/

[Linas.P]

Cannot comment about the service in Italy - so I just take your word for it becoming worse.

In UK Toyota and Lexus dealers are generally quite distinct and you get better customer service from Lexus in general. However, some dealership franchises are better than others and some are now truly undermine name. How does that compare to Tesla? I don't know from owners perspective as sales and after-sales are quite distinctly different, but sales on Tesla is non-existent. Same like ordering a microwave online - you look at the specs and you order what want. I almost prefer it that way, but it seems similar to Google here - either your questions is already covered as part of existing workflow, or you won't get support (like at all). Not sure where you got impression that Tesla dealerships are similar to old ways Lexus worked (maybe that is the case in Italy?).

Considering how much you will need to be in touch with after-sales in case of Tesla - it better be excellent as their cars disintegrating continuously. So here is a question, what is better - car which is so reliable that you never need to visit dealership or contact them - or the excellent service for the car which breakdowns on average once every 6 weeks? To be fair I had very good experience with Lexus warranty service, although I never trusted Lexus dealership to work on the car except of standard service items and they were not inspiring with their knowledge (but is just me, I would not trust anyone anyway).

I agree that we have moved into off-topic with whole "self-driving topic", but if you looking for the "old generation experience", or value quality and reliability, then Tesla is definitely not for you. Lexus is not perfect either - they need to improve on many fronts, many decision they have made don't make sense (like stopping the sales of new IS) and I see it will be difficult to stay with brand if you want same level of performance and quality.

If you ask me, for replacement of IS I would look into new BMW 330e (PHEV) or MB 300e (PHEV), the do what 300h does just do it better. Are they as reliable - no... but they are reliable enough for you not to worry during the warranty period. If you spec. the cars for similar price of Lexus IS , BMW comes at ~£2000 more (for new model) and MB comes at around £1000 less (at least in UK). BMW i4 fully electric car will come at similar price point just above as Tesla Model 3 (new i3 will be direct competitor) and at least in my opinion much more beautiful, but it is hard to comment on it yet (maybe it will be ready by the time you start looking for replacement). Both are recognised luxury brands, both have reasonable dealership experience. That is my conclusion here.

10 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

I have tried Tesla, we have two in the family and none of the issues mentioned in this post are present in either vehicle.

I am speaking from unbiased experiences.

I have to take your word for it, but I must say it is surprising. Tesla quality issues are well known and documented, some are outright failures, but many are just generally shoddy build quality. The particular person who so fiercely promotes the brand here had 15 faults with Model X in 2 years (every 6 weeks on average). If you look to brilliant Savagegeese video, he covers many of the issues and even interviews body-shops working with these issues. The paint problems shown in the video - my test Model 3 had them all, Model S was better thought and apart of some interior pieces falling off and few suspicious panels gaps here and there at least the paint was actually good.

So likewise, I am not biased against Tesla or EVs, I am just saying the quality of the cars is miles away from acceptable and light years away from Lexus.

[RichGS11]

19 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Cannot comment about the service in Italy - so I just take your word for it becoming worse.

In UK Toyota and Lexus dealers are generally quite distinct and you get better customer service from Lexus in general. However, some dealership franchises are better than others and some are now truly undermine name. How does that compare to Tesla? I don't know from owners perspective as sales and after-sales are quite distinctly different, but sales on Tesla is non-existent. Same like ordering a microwave online - you look at the specs and you order what want. I almost prefer it that way, but it seems similar to Google here - either your questions is already covered as part of existing workflow, or you won't get support (like at all). Not sure where you got impression that Tesla dealerships are similar to old ways Lexus worked (maybe that is the case in Italy?).

Considering how much you will need to be in touch with after-sales in case of Tesla - it better be excellent as their cars disintegrating continuously. So here is a question, what is better - car which is so reliable that you never need to visit dealership or contact them - or the excellent service for the car which breakdowns on average once every 6 weeks? To be fair I had very good experience with Lexus warranty service, although I never trusted Lexus dealership to work on the car except of standard service items and they were not inspiring with their knowledge (but is just me, I would not trust anyone anyway).

I agree that we have moved into off-topic with whole "self-driving topic", but if you looking for the "old generation experience", or value quality and reliability, then Tesla is definitely not for you. Lexus is not perfect either - they need to improve on many fronts, many decision they have made don't make sense (like stopping the sales of new IS) and I see it will be difficult to stay with brand if you want same level of performance and quality.

If you ask me, for replacement of IS I would look into new BMW 330e (PHEV) or MB 300e (PHEV), the do what 300h does just do it better. Are they as reliable - no... but they are reliable enough for you not to worry during the warranty period. If you spec. the cars for similar price of Lexus IS , BMW comes at ~£2000 more (for new model) and MB comes at around £1000 less (at least in UK). BMW i4 fully electric car will come at similar price point just above as Tesla Model 3 (new i3 will be direct competitor) and at least in my opinion much more beautiful, but it is hard to comment on it yet (maybe it will be ready by the time you start looking for replacement). Both are recognised luxury brands, both have reasonable dealership experience. That is my conclusion here.

I have to take your word for it, but I must say it is surprising. Tesla quality issues are well known and documented, some are outright failures, but many are just generally shoddy build quality. The particular person who so fiercely promotes the brand here had 15 faults with Model X in 2 years (every 6 weeks on average). If you look to brilliant Savagegeese video, he covers many of the issues and even interviews body-shops working with these issues. The paint problems shown in the video - my test Model 3 had them all, Model S was better thought and apart of some interior pieces falling off and few suspicious panels gaps here and there at least the paint was actually good.

So likewise, I am not biased against Tesla or EVs, I am just saying the quality of the cars is miles away from acceptable and light years away from Lexus.

I guess you always gamble when buying a new car and the newer the brand/model the higher the risk. I would imagine Tesla are having the same issues all new brands have had. I would say that the simple fact I want to get an ISF next shows the impression Lexus has over other brands on me (plus the fact I am a huge V8 fan). My biggest frustration with Tesla is the support. Due to their lack of being established and the lack of support from your local town or village mechanic, Teslas support leaves a lot to be desired, although again this comes down to their infancy within the market.

[Overland]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Cannot comment about the service in Italy - so I just take your word for it becoming worse.

In UK Toyota and Lexus dealers are generally quite distinct and you get better customer service from Lexus in general. However, some dealership franchises are better than others and some are now truly undermine name. How does that compare to Tesla? I don't know from owners perspective as sales and after-sales are quite distinctly different, but sales on Tesla is non-existent. Same like ordering a microwave online - you look at the specs and you order what want. I almost prefer it that way, but it seems similar to Google here - either your questions is already covered as part of existing workflow, or you won't get support (like at all). Not sure where you got impression that Tesla dealerships are similar to old ways Lexus worked (maybe that is the case in Italy?).

Considering how much you will need to be in touch with after-sales in case of Tesla - it better be excellent as their cars disintegrating continuously. So here is a question, what is better - car which is so reliable that you never need to visit dealership or contact them - or the excellent service for the car which breakdowns on average once every 6 weeks? To be fair I had very good experience with Lexus warranty service, although I never trusted Lexus dealership to work on the car except of standard service items and they were not inspiring with their knowledge (but is just me, I would not trust anyone anyway).

I agree that we have moved into off-topic with whole "self-driving topic", but if you looking for the "old generation experience", or value quality and reliability, then Tesla is definitely not for you. Lexus is not perfect either - they need to improve on many fronts, many decision they have made don't make sense (like stopping the sales of new IS) and I see it will be difficult to stay with brand if you want same level of performance and quality.

If you ask me, for replacement of IS I would look into new BMW 330e (PHEV) or MB 300e (PHEV), the do what 300h does just do it better. Are they as reliable - no... but they are reliable enough for you not to worry during the warranty period. If you spec. the cars for similar price of Lexus IS , BMW comes at ~£2000 more (for new model) and MB comes at around £1000 less (at least in UK). BMW i4 fully electric car will come at similar price point just above as Tesla Model 3 (new i3 will be direct competitor) and at least in my opinion much more beautiful, but it is hard to comment on it yet (maybe it will be ready by the time you start looking for replacement). Both are recognised luxury brands, both have reasonable dealership experience. That is my conclusion here.

I have to take your word for it, but I must say it is surprising. Tesla quality issues are well known and documented, some are outright failures, but many are just generally shoddy build quality. The particular person who so fiercely promotes the brand here had 15 faults with Model X in 2 years (every 6 weeks on average). If you look to brilliant Savagegeese video, he covers many of the issues and even interviews body-shops working with these issues. The paint problems shown in the video - my test Model 3 had them all, Model S was better thought and apart of some interior pieces falling off and few suspicious panels gaps here and there at least the paint was actually good.

So likewise, I am not biased against Tesla or EVs, I am just saying the quality of the cars is miles away from acceptable and light years away from Lexus.

When I have booked an appointment online I was going in a location, there was a resposnible when they tell me about specs, informations, with kindness and professionally.
When I have called the Toyota dealer in charge to selle Lexus, to ask about the new car I would like to buy, they firstly ask me "how do you want to pay the car?" that is the equivalent of "do you have the money for it"?

This is the situation.

Please could you tell me from where comes you sentence that Tesla need service every 6 weeks?

I have a customer my company that drive one of the first Model S and he is never goes to an assistance, he have the software updated for free while he sleep (while I have to pay 300€ for memory card with the new maps, in a obsolete navigation system) I think that the only problem he had was getting angry because some idiot has parked his diesel car in the space of the charging columns of the local supermarket, where he usually goes to shop and in the 40 minutes dedicated he leaves the car in the meantime.

I see that you would therefore be part of those who argue that it is better to buy a BMW or a Mercedes and abandon Lexus, so let's say you no longer believe in the Lexus product in the sedan category. Essentially, it confirms that Lexus' strategy in removing sedans from its range is the best way to move customers to Tesla or BMW and Mercedes.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Overland said:

Please could you tell me from where comes you sentence that Tesla need service every 6 weeks?

he have the software updated for free while he sleep

I see that you would therefore be part of those who argue that it is better to buy a BMW or a Mercedes and abandon Lexus, so let's say you no longer believe in the Lexus product in the sedan category. Essentially, it confirms that Lexus' strategy in removing sedans from its range is bankruptcy expels customers to Tesla or BMW and Mercedes.

From the list of issues certain Tesla owners have listed (below). Indeed this could be singular example, but I doubt it considering there are a lot of reports generally supporting the fact that Tesla is extremely unreliable by modern car standards.

Yes Tesla over the air-updates are cool. And I have long lost hope with Lexus sat-nav - I just use my phone... actually I do that in any car - phone navigation is just so much better.

Well... if you looking for sedan/saloon then Lexus gives you no other options. ES is FWD meaning it simply does not exist for me and for 68000 euro I am sure BMW 530e is much better car. Lexus already sells upward of 75% SUVs, so I guess they justify their decision by focusing on SUVs - not sure how much it will hurt the company, but they are certainly loosing remaining 25% in non-SUV segment.

On 11/23/2019 at 9:15 AM, ganzoom said:

Our Tesla has needed this list of things fixing at 2 year old car and 30k.

1: Drivers side A pillar rebuilt 
2: New sun visors
3: New steering wheel
4: New door latches FWD
5: New door motor passenger side
6: New rear hatch latch 
7: New FWD sensors
8: New drivers seat
9: New front suspension links
10: New front drive shafts
11: New key fobs
12: New MCU screen
13: UV treatment for new MCU screen.

(14) In addition, the driver door latch got stuck a few weeks ago and I couldn't close the door,

(15) and the front lower suspension links is now making a knocking noise!!

(this works out as fault every 6.95 weeks - so closer to 7).

And considering this I would be very worried...

11 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

My biggest frustration with Tesla is the support. Due to their lack of being established and the lack of support from your local town or village mechanic, Teslas support leaves a lot to be desired, although again this comes down to their infancy within the market.

@RichGS11 - appreciate your comment. However, I feel Tesla's inability to make reliable cars and inability to provide sufficient support cannot be played down simply by them being "new" (17 years old) company. They still charge the money for their products, so the money you pend with them is worth the same as the money you spend with any other company.

[Martin J]

7 hours ago, ganzoom said:

I'm lucky enough to have the financial means to afford new technologies, but equally at £40k Teslas are now at a price point not far off what most Lexus owners can afford.

I'm also able to afford a Tesla. Indeed, I was very close to buying a M3 last year. But the build quality lottery is a fact, evidenced both by the experience of owners and surveys such as the J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study. Tesla owners saying that they've had no problems doesn't alter the evidence. Having said that, I'm not buying a Lexus either, since at 5 years old mine is still (touch wood) pretty much like new, in a way I suspect Teslas might not be. New technology is great, but if the vehicle in which it's embedded falls apart after a few years, or is delivered with faults that require endless patience to resolve, private buyers like me are going to think twice. One of the biggest mysteries of the automotive world is why Tesla think producing defective vehicles is a great business plan.

(Apologies to the OP for the hijacking of the original thread. IS owners frustrated about the new model have my sympathy. But it's been an entertaining and informative discussion).

[javadude]

15 hours ago, Martin J said:

I'm also able to afford a Tesla. Indeed, I was very close to buying a M3 last year. But the build quality lottery is a fact, evidenced both by the experience of owners and surveys such as the J.D. Power US Initial Quality Study. Tesla owners saying that they've had no problems doesn't alter the evidence. Having said that, I'm not buying a Lexus either, since at 5 years old mine is still (touch wood) pretty much like new, in a way I suspect Teslas might not be. New technology is great, but if the vehicle in which it's embedded falls apart after a few years, or is delivered with faults that require endless patience to resolve, private buyers like me are going to think twice. One of the biggest mysteries of the automotive world is why Tesla think producing defective vehicles is a great business plan.

(Apologies to the OP for the hijacking of the original thread. IS owners frustrated about the new model have my sympathy. But it's been an entertaining and informative discussion).

In case it helps anyone I have just moved from a Lexus NX to Tesla 3 Long Range. I love Lexus and still stop by here occasionally. Tesla build quality is a lottery. My car does have some cosmetic issues and they're being fixed on Thursday. On the Tesla forums I hear a mix of experience: very happy owners with no problems at all; problems on collection which are completely sorted followed by trouble free ownership; owners with various ongoing problems.

Buying Lexus (eg the new UX300e) will almost guarantee good build quality intead if it being a lottery. 

The Tesla quality problems are not acceptable, not excused by them being a "new" car maker as they've been making cars for about 8 years (?). They are a product of the push for volume of sales and they are selling a lot. (Vague memory something like 3,000 vehicles in the UK in Sept.) There were 20 people collecting new cars the day I did in just the Bristol dealers.

Apart from quality Tesla are sadly way ahead of Lexus, including the new UX300e, and other manufacturers. That's why people risk the lottery of the quality issues. Yesterday is a good illustration: My car had an over-the-air update available in the morning which improved the cruise control and Spotify interface. I'd left it at 71% charge and had to make an urgent trip from Reading to Cambridge. Normally I leave it to charge overnight to 80% (no need to go somewhere to fill up), and soon when I move onto a new elec tariff that'll cost me 10% the cost of petrol. If I was planning to go out I can set the car to warm the cabin, either timed or via a phone app. The car was quiet, smooth, fast (0-60 is 4.2 seconds) and I used the auto-steer with the cruise control. Better to drive than my NX was. Before returning we went to a drive thru McD and sat watching Netflix on the car screen. I could have just made the round trip without charging but stopped on the way back and plugged the car into a Tesla supercharger to charge while we went to the toilet. In that time it added 120 miles of range. That was charging at 3x what the UX300e will be able to manage and the car will manage 5x on the newest Tesla chargers. I would not have been able to make the trip without charging in the UX300e even with 100% Battery. 

But Lexus quality and customer service are first class and I will miss them. Looking forward to when Lexus build something better.

[Linas.P]

@javadude - very interesting post and I appreciate objective and unbiased points you made.

However, it seems that many areas were Tesla is "ahead" of other manufacturers are EV only areas. Let's take for example pre-conditioning/pre-heating cabin - that would not be concern for ICE or PHEV vehicles at all, this is issue which is only relevant for EVs ins't it? Besides BMW i3/i8 as well has this feature, even some old Volvo and SAABs had, although it was mostly an option destined for Nordic countries.

Second point is "range anxiety" - this again only matters in EV world as with ICE that is not consideration which one has to make. Anyone who have tried using different EVs may know that actually finding suitable charger which as well is part of the scheme you are subscribed to is more difficult than it looks at first. So indeed, I do agree with the point that between EVs Tesla has advantage with supercharger network.

The cost of fuel is as well very interesting discussion, because fuel is very cheap and 90% is tax, currently when governments are trying to promote EVs many of taxes are waived, but eventually they will need to replace the income they going to loose on the fuel and I am sure they will find way to add that back to EV owners.

As far as Tesla infotainment goes, I have said many times that it is one of the most advanced systems around - I never found myself in position where I needed to watch netflix in the car, but I guess each owner will have different needs. What is more interesting for me however is how do you find all the control when driving the car, could you get used to them and not being distracted from driving? Or does driving aids gives a level of security which means you can "afford" to be distracted when driving anyway?

[ganzoom]

It may surprise Lexus owners, but for many people reliability isn't the only criteria to judge a car!!

Year after year Tesla scores the highest owner satisfaction rates.

https://www.thestreet.com/.amp-tesladaily/tesla/news/tesla-tops-consumer-reports-owner-satisfaction-survey

 

Our IS300H is the most reliable car and dependable car we have owned, our Tesla the opposite. Yet when it comes buying our next car its 100% NOT going to be a Lexus and am 90% sure it'll be another Tesla (10% hoping for a Taycann).

Any true Lexus fan will surely want to understand the reasoning. Am also not the only one, hence why this thread even exists. People are buying saloons, the Model 3 is a saloon, so why aren't people interested in buying a Lexus saloon??

Our Tesla isn't just a better car than our IS, its the best car I have ever owned by a country mile. Tesla have achived emotional engagement with owners at a level which most other car manufacturers can dream why.......Which is why most owners accept unreliability. 

 

I feel sorry for our IS300H, compared to any other car I have owned in the past and I suspect there would be a good chance I would be considering getting a RX to sit alone side the IS. But compared to our Tesla.....well it spends most of its time parked up been forgotten about. So why would I buy another car from a brand who makes cars we don't want to drive?

Instead of been angry at a company like Tesla, other manufacturers need to understand what Tesla is doing to achieve their sales figures and customer loyalty figures.

If Lexus wants to get new customers or retain their current ones, they have offer something more than what they do now, much more. 

[Overland]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

It may surprise Lexus owners, but for many people reliability isn't the only criteria to judge a car!!

.....

If Lexus wants to get new customers or retain their current ones, they have offer something more than what they do now, much more. 

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻