IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[ganzoom]

20 minutes ago, Thackeray said:

If a Tesla costs, say, £60,000 and it depreciates 45% in the first three years, that's about £9,000 per year. Somebody must be paying for this and I suspect it's the owner.

 

Thats the advantage of owing out right, we paid the full price for the cars at the start, so the cars own as nothing interms of finance, and depreciation only matters if we were to sell and buy another car. Since we have no interest in selling either car depreciation is in effect nulled, it has zero impact on our decision to buy new or swap our cars :).

[Overland]

In the meantime, returning to the topic, in the search for possible brands / models / alternatives to the fact that the sedans of the Lexus brand of the D segment will cease to be distributed in our markets, we can make a small summary

1. the majority of people, from interviews and data on the net presented and discussed here, believe that Tesla is not a car as it does not have a traditional engine, it does not drive like a car (with the classic feedbacks of traditional cars: skidded, engine roar, grit and satisfaction in driving) and has many construction defects, which for many will never be solved, precisely because Tesla as a brand does not have a heritage of "traditional car builder" (but rather of rockets) will never be able to understand.

2. The automotive world is investing billions of dollars in all countries where car manufacturing is prominent in industrial production to invest, develop and produce electric cars, including Lexus, some with more conviction, like the Germans and others with much less conviction like the Japanese

Having said all this, I had the opportunity to have a conversation via email with a kind Lexus manager, who replied to my request to suggest an alternative Lexus car since in May I would like to replace it with a new one, loves the IS has been canceled.

In the discussion, the phrases I would like to emphasize reflect what has also been discussed here, namely that the market wants SUVs and they adapt.

"The strategy of defining a product line up is very complex and follows clear evolutionary dynamics of the market and future sales opportunities.
The Automotive Premium world is constantly changing, as are the specific demands of the market on the various segments, including those you mentioned (suv)
When a product is no longer marketed, there are always strong rationales who try to consistently follow the reference market"

But it also turns out that there will be new things coming, obviously it is not said which ones.

"I can tell you that for the moment, given that you mention the Lexus IS, belonging to the segment of medium sedans, in these segments we are changing our sales strategy and will adapt our proposal with products that are more responsive to the market, not necessarily placed in the same size of segment"

(regarding this: I don't understand how is possible to replace a segment with something that is not of the same segnent, indeed)

Then there is a praise to the ES as a car that makes it clear that Lexus thinks that this is the car for those who want a sedan:

"Today I can tell you that as regards the sedans, we have the new Lexus ES, among other things just presented on the month of October as a novelty with an Important restyling in the design and in the package of contents and equipment, which improve the previous model and which seeks to place the quality bar - which has always distinguished us - at a higher level"

Having said all this, and read that is now there's no chance to have again IS or RC in the EU market, stated that I will never would drive  SUV, (which in my opinion are cars that in the NX and UX segment align customers too much with that of other brands, thus removing the value of driving an exclusive and distinctive brand that has always been one of the reasons for purchasing the Lexus customer, undoubted) I think that the best possible decision for a customer like me will be to keep and my car, paying the important final sum at the end and waiting.

If Lexus still proves to be a car manufacturer that lives up to its name, offering all customers, regardless of the fashions of the moment, a range of balanced, modern and updated cars, I will be happy to remain their customer as I am from more than 13 years now, otherwise, with calm and serenity, seen that my IS can easily last another 10 years, when I will now be close to 65 in 2031, I will evaluate if the "space rocket company" will have been able to improve its quality as cars manufacturer in 10 years, otherwise I believe that the Germans will prove to be the real future of the car because they don't follow trends, but they look ahead and thousand of millions dollars investment in EV's it seems to show the way.

It is sad to say it, but I have the impression and the feeling that, if Lexus proves that its idea of the future (at least in certain markets) is to follow what the market says, avoiding to "write" the market itself, with a courageous future vision and risky investments, which inevitably must also look to an exclusive clientele, which is perhaps a minority and does not follow trends, will no longer be a leading house as it is now.

I thank everyone for the great discussion that has been created starting from a simple question, I will keep an eye if any news will come up from the discussion, have great weekend, stay safe and try to have a safe Christmas in peace and happiness, despite the moment we are living.

[paulrnx]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:17 AM, ganzoom said:

Thats the advantage of owing out right, we paid the full price for the cars at the start, so the cars own as nothing interms of finance, and depreciation only matters if we were to sell and buy another car. Since we have no interest in selling either car depreciation is in effect nulled, it has zero impact on our decision to buy new or swap our cars :).

This is just b0110cks. Most sane people take depreciation into account when considering the real costs of running a car. Your posts are a tad condescending too. I’m sure you aren’t the only one who owns your cars. Most of us don’t advertise it.

[paulrnx]

Lexus sold a record 15,126 vehicles in the UK in 2019 beating their previous highest figure in 2007. It was also a 25% increase on 2018. 70% of these sales were SUVs. SUV sales were up by 58% over 2018. Lexus also reported strong ES sales too. I guess this is why they have axed certain models in the UK.

[Linas.P]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:41 PM, ganzoom said:

I spent over 1hr on this today, despite the sleet/rain/wind loved it 🙂 

welcome to 1885 mate... this may even be considered advanced for those times.

And who the hell doesn't count car depreciation in the cost of the ownership?! This is the reason why I said I will never buy brand new car (unless I win lottery or somehow money is not the object). And this is not because I cannot afford it, but simply because it is complete waste of money. Buying say 3 years old car will always save 30-60% of the costs - more expensive luxury cars looses the cost far quicker than cheaper ones but on average say 45%. And this part of value is literally wasted - it adds nothing to ownership experience, ownership costs and nowadays you are even expected to pay extra duty on cars over 40k. Simply said there are no reason to buy new car, especially pay for it cash and upfront.... well unless wasting money is the goal. 

You not planning to sell it, doesn't make "effect nulled" either - depreciation concept is very simple, if you car was worth 60k 3 years ago and 30k now, then you lost half of it's value over 3 years. That is depreciation. It does not matter if you planning to sell it or not, that money is lost to depreciation. no matter what you will eventually sell it - even if after 25 years you going to scrap it for £250... then it still counts... just instead losing 50% to depreciation over 3 years, you will lose 99.99% over 25 years... still depreciation.

[paulrnx]

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

welcome to 1885 mate... 

Got me laughing out loud that one Linas! Cheers 😂👍

[Linas.P]

On 12/5/2020 at 11:41 AM, Overland said:

1. the majority of people,believe that Tesla is not a car 

2. SUV topic 

3. ES topic

1. Are you sure that is what you meant? "People believe that Tesla is not the car because it does not have ICE engine"... can somebody show me such a person? I am sure this is not about me as I am not important, but just to clarify - at least I never said that or think that way and I have never said any sane person saying it. EV cars were one of the first invented and in early 20th century were competing with ICE and steam cars head to head. The have practical issues with batteries but besides that it is just different source of power like Petrol, diesel, LPG or Hydrogen.

2. SUV topic is very simple. All manufacturers says that "market wants SUVs". Why market wants SUVs - because all manufacturers spent at least 20 years marketing them. Why did Manufacturers spend so much time marketing SUVs and not other body styles - because profit margins on SUVs are much higher. Take for example Lexus RX - it is made on Toyota K platform, same platform Camry is built on... How much Camry costs and how much Lexus RX costs? Yes RX is like double the price, but do you think it costs double for Lexus to make it?

So ... why manufacturers forces us to transition to SUVs? Because they can justify higher prices and thus higher margins, whilst simply making car with larger body costs them just marginally more.

3. So why ES... Again it is quite simple - saloons are not target market because of point 2. As such Lexus wants to spend as little money as possible on supporting this market, ES is global model based on inferior platform and inferior drive-train. It is fact that IS, RC and GS being dedicated Lexus platform models simply costs more to make than ES, which is basically badge engineered Avalon. So having ES is double benefit fro Lexus - not only they benefit from economies of scale, but as well they can increase the margin yet again - selling inferior car which cost less to make for more money.

In whole this story the only thing which doesn't make sense is that they still made new IS. If they would have dropped IS worldwide it would make perfect sense, now it is rather confusing why they kept making it. I could speculate maybe refresh was already in the works when decision was made and because it is actually kind of mk3.5 (more than face lift, but not entirely new model), maybe they decided to recuperate some of development expenses already made and keep it alive for another 3 years before finally killing it for good. Who knows... 

[ganzoom]

8 hours ago, Linas.P said:

welcome to 1885 mate... this may even be considered advanced for those times.

🙂

https://twitter.com/fietsprofessor/status/1335152136037015554?s=20

We clearly see the world through very different lens, enjoy the holidays, I'll be out on my bike much more than the car.

The British countryside really is a beautiful place, and I certainly really like just stopping to take in the view. 

Given all the other stuff going on in the world at present, its 5 minutes of bliss before getting back into reality :).

Oh and I agree with you about buying new cars, am done with them unless am forced to get another one!! Cycling however, it really is what I love beyond all other modes of transportation.

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, ganzoom said:

We clearly see the world through very different lens, enjoy the holidays, I'll be out on my bike much more than the car.

Indeed - I agree that countryside is beautiful, I just could not agree that cycling is a mode of transportation. I love cycling but only as a leisure activity. I have similar pictures, just with the car - somehow for me it is the car which makes picture better not the bicycle. 

Which brings me to one partially funny story - when my bike got stolen I realised I didn't have a single picture of it and I could only upload stock ones which is not ideal. On top of that my bicycle was completely stock without any mods or accessories making recovery much more difficult. I guess that just goes to show that cycling (despite me liking it) is not important part of my life, where motoring is truly important part.

I even said that in situation where I would not be able to drive to work, I would quit... working.

[dutchie01]

Look who is waking up...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-reveal-new-european-focused-electric-suv-2021

 

 

 

 

 

[matt8]

41 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Look who is waking up...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-reveal-new-european-focused-electric-suv-2021

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting!

In the article it talks a lot about platforms. What does a platform give you in terms of advantages in production?

[Linas.P]

35 minutes ago, matt8 said:

Interesting!

In the article it talks a lot about platforms. What does a platform give you in terms of advantages in production?

Yeah and that is the stage at which they are :

[Shahpor]

One for you Linas

[Linas.P]

@Shahpor - damn I completely forgotten about my venture as columnist in the local newspaper!

But well said - it almost feels like I have said it myself 😁

[bpsorrel]

Going back to the original topic of what car could/would replace the IS300h, I've been looking at the new Volvo S60....   Looks good (atually not too dissimilar to the IS from the side), is not too expensive, actually, trading my '18 IS for a '20 S60 would almost be a swap and is reasonably premium in feel.

Anyone have any views on the S60?  Any reasons why not to consider it? :)

By the way, I'm also in the camp of not wanting an SUV to replae it.  I'm not against them per se, I have a recent model Kuga in Russia (sadly untouched for a year due to covid restrictions in both UK and Russia) and its percetly suited to its role there, but here I prefer saloons and coupes.

 

 

[royoftherovers]

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/owner-reviews/volvo/s60-2018/

Have a read Barry.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, bpsorrel said:

Anyone have any views on the S60?  Any reasons why not to consider it? 🙂

For me FWD... say no more. 🙂 

^{And I know it is "technically AWD", but the engine is connected to front wheels and rear wheels are just "part-time" AWD electric motors, overall handling and feeling is like FWD car. Have not tried specifically S60, but had S80 T8 for weekend. In straight line amazing, in corner it just squealing and under-steering forever.} 

[bpsorrel]

The FWD was one issue I was dubious about too.    Seems to be the C Class or new 3 series are the only true rivals as far as configuration and size, but having owned several MBs (including an SLC toy now) I would miss the IS reliability... LOL!    

What to do next year???!!!

[bpsorrel]

9 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/owner-reviews/volvo/s60-2018/

Have a read Barry.

Inteesting...   Good looking car though!

[bpsorrel]

I had thought about the ES300h, but the lack of fold down rear seats and the rather floaty feel put me off.    Is anyone else considering the ES?

[Mincey]

On 12/7/2020 at 7:28 PM, Shahpor said:

One for you Linas

I couldn't agree more. I hate cyclists (and I used to be one...)

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, bpsorrel said:

The FWD was one issue I was dubious about too.    Seems to be the C Class or new 3 series are the only true rivals as far as configuration and size, but having owned several MBs (including an SLC toy now) I would miss the IS reliability... LOL!    

What to do next year???!!!

I would admit Volvo S60 looks nice. I am sure it is not an issue for many people, but for me Luxury car has to be RWD... especially if they have "sporty" or "driving experience" mentioned anywhere in marketing.

As for ES - there are far more issues with it than strictly driving wheels or folding seats. Overall, it does not feel like Lexus inside. 

It seems like really boring, but I guess the only solution I see is BMW and MB. Has cars in all segments - entry exec, sporty coupe and luxury saloon to replace IS, RC and GS. Which... fun fact were all introduced to specifically rival German cars in their respective segments.

 

[Overland]

17 minutes ago, bpsorrel said:

I had thought about the ES300h, but the lack of fold down rear seats and the rather floaty feel put me off.    Is anyone else considering the ES?

I like the ES and I was considering at the beginning, for me it's not a big problem for the rear seat... but what make me in stand by is the price for the luxury version and the fact that I read of unsatisfied customer about the interiors quality and other issues: slow car, not so good suspensions (floaty) and so on.

Unfortunately there' no way to know if their problems was due to their car only of for all the ES.

As my Pay per Drive end in May, the dealer is trying to convince me to buy the ES as they said they want I stay in Lexus (I ma 14 years customers)  and offer some discount and so on... I have not decide yet, I am pushing them to make a huge discount, it's not my decision if they withdrawn the IS.

But honestly I would not buy another brand.

In case of not buying the ES I will pay the final payment and keep the iS, and sit down to see what happens in the last few years, all the movement around EV's is very interesting.

It seems Audi and other Germans are working hard to have a selection to offer, here in Italy they are investing a lot in ad's and communication of the incoming models, there's also Tesla and others that in a couple of years could improve, so the offer will be more wider in the very close future.


 

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, Overland said:

In case of not buying the ES I will pay the final payment and keep the iS, and sit down to see what happens in the last few years, all the movement around EV's is very interesting.

And I certainly don't see why not... unless you actually tired of IS and want to upgrade.

Otherwise, I assume, the car is going to be in great condition, being Lexus it is not like you need to worry about spiralling out maintenance costs.... and all in all when you own the car the actual costs is going to be less then getting another new car again.

Besides, by the time you really going to have enough of IS... they may have reversed the decision and will have mk3.5 back in Europe, maybe even some EVs.

So indeed, simply staying with current IS if possible is great option if you can choose that. I guess there are some people who are locked into contract (like work schemes) where after 3 years they have no option of keeping the car. In that case is much harder.

[Overland]

45 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And I certainly don't see why not... unless you actually tired of IS and want to upgrade.

Otherwise, I assume, the car is going to be in great condition, being Lexus it is not like you need to worry about spiralling out maintenance costs.... and all in all when you own the car the actual costs is going to be less then getting another new car again.

Besides, by the time you really going to have enough of IS... they may have reversed the decision and will have mk3.5 back in Europe, maybe even some EVs.

So indeed, simply staying with current IS if possible is great option if you can choose that. I guess there are some people who are locked into contract (like work schemes) where after 3 years they have no option of keeping the car. In that case is much harder.

To be honest I am not so tired, it is not easy to find a car like the IS in the market and this one is the best than any other IS I had (if we exclude the IS200 Sport Cross, my favorite ever) it's more that I like the new technology offered by the ES300H, like the HUD, a more functional and modern Battery pack, a new design of the interiors, the TFT instead the Optitron instruments and so on.

My IS300H is like new so it can last another 20 years I thought! My friend drove a RX300 of the first generation with 600.000 km. and just had normal service a couple of time per year, he just change last year with the new one, but just because there was discount offered by the government for hybrid cars.

Options I have are three:

• give back the car and pay nothing
• give back the car and buy a new one, without pay the last installment
• pay the last installment and keep the car (they also allowed to pay the last installment in another 12/24 moths if need: this add more interest to pay, but if one does not want to pay a couple of tenth of Euros in one solution, it can be worth)

Let see, I have a couple of months more to decide 😉