IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[dutchie01]

hyundai/Kia/Genesis is developing with lightspeed and every new model is a big leap forward so the coupe will come for sure.

BTW the LS is a loooong car really the size of an S class> the IS is dead and will not return. I hear that even MB is questioning further development of the C class as it maks no sense to build a car nobody wants.

For your enthusiast driving how about a  BMW 240i or a porsche 918 cayman?    

[Linas.P]

43 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

out a  BMW 240i or a porsche 918 cayman?    

Too small - I need more like GT car and has to be have rear seats or 2+2. My list is RC-F, LC500 or 500h, BMW i8, or even BMW6/8 series. 6 is sadly getting too old now and 8 is just rebandge of 6 for more money. MB and BMW are as well attractive for M440i and C43 AMG, meaning you can get better engine without needing to go M4 or C63. 

[Sazabi2001]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Just to explain a thing - in China cars are mo expensive ~ 20%, then you have 120% tax on top, so if car costs £100k here, it will cost £240k in China. As well driving habits are quite different there, they are literally ~ in 1920's when it comes to driving culture. Not in a bad way, just that whole privately owned vehicle thing is very new phenomenon for them. Privately owned cars only been in china for last ~25 years, and western car brands for more like ~15. So habits are vastly different, as well they have very different market there e.g. Maserati, WV=Audi, BMW and MB are pretty much equal competitors.

I think European price for the car would be ~£80k which is ok for luxury car, but not great for ugly minivan. But yes that is likely the future, the only difference is that when chauffeur become unnecessary due to automation, there will be no need to for drivers place, or to establish where is front and where is back, so the style will be further improved:

I reckon inside you will have 6 seats around the table and you will instruct AI where to take you whilst having a business meeting or a drink 😁

Since I'm from China, this is both right and wrong. China does have 120% tax (or even 200% tax in some cases) for luxury cars, but that doesn't means its always 120% more expensive than that in UK. A lot of  luxury cars has much bigger sale volume in China rather than in UK (or any other country in the world), so the manufactory can cut down the price just because of the import volume. something like Mercedes or BMW cars, with 120% tax rate some of them just 10-20% more expensive than in UK.

 

Toyota Alphard, in the other hands, is a different story. For some reason it is well fitted into the Chinese driving culture and Chinese families loved it so much, it's already ridicules priced. I guess you can't image Toyota Alphard currently selling for £130-150k in China (about £90k base price + £40k ordering fee if you don't want to wait 3 years to get your car), well over a Mercedes S or Lexus LS in Chinese market, and the Lexus version expected to priced over £200k.

[Sazabi2001]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

hyundai/Kia/Genesis is developing with lightspeed and every new model is a big leap forward so the coupe will come for sure.

BTW the LS is a loooong car really the size of an S class> the IS is dead and will not return. I hear that even MB is questioning further development of the C class as it maks no sense to build a car nobody wants.

For your enthusiast driving how about a  BMW 240i or a porsche 918 cayman?    

Both BMW 240 and Porsche Cayman ( Cayman and 918 are different things I guess) has MacPherson strut front suspension. In fact Cayman has MacPherson strut on all 4 corner, almost identical setup as a Toyota MR2. You will never get a refined suspension feeling in such car compares to double wish bone up front and 5 links to the rear on an IS. In fact, just suspension alone the Lexus IS has quite a lot of potential both for comfort and sporty, but again people don't realize it and don't even try to understand it.

 

I can say so because I own a 911, and yes even 911 has MacPherson strut front suspension.

[Sazabi2001]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:50 PM, Linas.P said:

....

You have different perspective - "Driving" means totally different thing for you then it does for me and that is fine. You value things like comfort, I value things like handling -obviously SUVs will be more comfortable, but will handle worse, so here is the answer - you will get SUV and I won't. 

...

People nowadays more towards MacPherson strut suspension rather than double wish bone suspension, and the term 'driving feeling' is more vague than ever. Here is few reasons:

1, Better tyres. Nowadays tyres are much better than they used to be, stiffer wall and better grip, and you don't need that much camber gain from double wish bone setup. Unless those really into modification or tracking, people can't tell the different what suspension setup should feel like.

 

2, Better brakes, better ABS / traction control. New ABS system can control braking of individual wheel, and traction control can control power / torque flow to individual wheel (almost like low cost LSD). This means cars can automatic control the balance under braking and acceleration. Combines with electric power steering with auto input compensation, the feeling of any car (whatever suspension it has) is more depended on the setup software rather than the actual mechanical thing.. Unless you push your car to its limit that beyond those electronic system can helps, otherwise the sport mode button is all you need. So, FWD/RWD, weight distribution, power balance and centre of gravity are all less important now.

 

3, For some straight reason people nowadays prefer stiffer suspension. This is partially related to better road condition and you don't need a soft setup for smooth ride, and people automatic stiffer is sportier. Because of basic mechanical principles, for the same spring rate and damping rate, more linkage on the suspension setup will have smoother ride while provides better wheel-to-ground contact pattern. That means MacPherson strut (only 2 lower linkage, usually combined into the lower A arm) will be stiffer than double-wish-bone (4 links, usually combined into upper and lower A arms) in most cases. In the other hands, since double-wish-bone can have active camber gain, it can allow more body roll and even softer setup while still have much better wheel-to-ground contact pattern, which will out-performed MacPherson strut when you push it to the limit and that's why most sport cars have this. Still, if not telling what suspension the car has, people will still automatic think that MacPherson strut is better simply because it's stiffer.

[Linas.P]

48 minutes ago, Sazabi2001 said:

In fact, just suspension alone the Lexus IS has quite a lot of potential both for comfort and sporty,

That is quite a good point - however having right type of suspension does not mean that it is adjusted for best handling. Lexus cars are adjusted more for safe and comfortable driving, and worse there isn't even much adjustment on suspension. So if you wanted to change suspension geometry to give better feel, feedback or to grip better it would still require quite substantial changes.

Meaning that car with even inferior suspension set-up can have a better handling, because they are specifically designed for it. Obviously, I am not saying that Lexus IS/RC suspension is bad, but it is more relaxed GT type suspension, which probably suites the brand well. I feel like maybe they should have at least adjusted suspension differently on say F-Sport to give it that little bit of edge over Luxury/Premier/Takumi and diversify the model - now you get exactly the same thing on all trims.

[Sazabi2001]

40 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is quite a good point - however having right type of suspension does not mean that it is adjusted for best handling. Lexus cars are adjusted more for safe and comfortable driving, and worse there isn't even much adjustment on suspension. So if you wanted to change suspension geometry to give better feel, feedback or to grip better it would still require quite substantial changes.

Meaning that car with even inferior suspension set-up can have a better handling, because they are specifically designed for it. Obviously, I am not saying that Lexus IS/RC suspension is bad, but it is more relaxed GT type suspension, which probably suites the brand well. I feel like maybe they should have at least adjusted suspension differently on say F-Sport to give it that little bit of edge over Luxury/Premier/Takumi and diversify the model - now you get exactly the same thing on all trims.

I think it's not the suspension, but the weight distribution of the IS300h / RC300h make it feel so bad.

IS / Mark X isn't bad for performance, RC in fact is quite great I think. RC-F was doing OK in racing:

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/lexus-rc-f-in-motorsport-the-story-so-far/

Now the problem is the hybrid version: The IS and RC platform suspension is designed for front weight bias, the origin plan didn't included the hybrid version (Mark X never got hybrid version). With in the N platform only the GS (and Crown) was designed with the hybrid version in mind, so it has the Battery vertical on the back seat and within the rear axle. The IS300h / RC300h, Battery is an after-through and placed in the spare tyre well, that makes a significant weight over the rear axle. Well for a Porsche 911 that's great, but for a chassis / suspension designed to be front heavy that's a disaster. The suspension is too soft and didn't compensate the rear weight bias, and ruin the rear-wheel contact angle. I think it's giving too much camber gain to the rear. So the IS300h has poor grip on the rear (even poorer than the front-heavy IS200t and IS250), rear tyre wear is significant (3 times faster than front, that not normal even for a RWD).

So the face-lift in 2017 also included stiffer shock absorber, and more importantly stiffer bushing. But again that's not enough, the geometry is not right for rear weight bias, especially weigh over the rear axle. So, yes, IS300h has a good suspension but crap feeling, only because Toyota save the development cost. In fact, I'm looking into the part number of the IS300h suspension and it seems like 30% of the parts are from the 2nd gen IS250 (seems that way, but part numbers from Lexus are confusing). And if I remember correctly, RC300h never get the facelift, hence never has the bushing update, which is sad.

 

I just bought a pair of front suspension from a 2017 IS300h, and comparing with my 2014 IS300h, they're quite different. I think the 2017 is closer to GS suspension.

[rayaans]

44 minutes ago, Sazabi2001 said:

I think it's not the suspension, but the weight distribution of the IS300h / RC300h make it feel so bad.

IS / Mark X isn't bad for performance, RC in fact is quite great I think. RC-F was doing OK in racing:

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/lexus-rc-f-in-motorsport-the-story-so-far/

Now the problem is the hybrid version: The IS and RC platform suspension is designed for front weight bias, the origin plan didn't included the hybrid version (Mark X never got hybrid version). With in the N platform only the GS (and Crown) was designed with the hybrid version in mind, so it has the battery vertical on the back seat and within the rear axle. The IS300h / RC300h, battery is an after-through and placed in the spare tyre well, that makes a significant weight over the rear axle. Well for a Porsche 911 that's great, but for a chassis / suspension designed to be front heavy that's a disaster. The suspension is too soft and didn't compensate the rear weight bias, and ruin the rear-wheel contact angle. I think it's giving too much camber gain to the rear. So the IS300h has poor grip on the rear (even poorer than the front-heavy IS200t and IS250), rear tyre wear is significant (3 times faster than front, that not normal even for a RWD).

So the face-lift in 2017 also included stiffer shock absorber, and more importantly stiffer bushing. But again that's not enough, the geometry is not right for rear weight bias, especially weigh over the rear axle. So, yes, IS300h has a good suspension but crap feeling, only because Toyota save the development cost. In fact, I'm looking into the part number of the IS300h suspension and it seems like 30% of the parts are from the 2nd gen IS250 (seems that way, but part numbers from Lexus are confusing). And if I remember correctly, RC300h never get the facelift, hence never has the bushing update, which is sad.

 

I just bought a pair of front suspension from a 2017 IS300h, and comparing with my 2014 IS300h, they're quite different. I think the 2017 is closer to GS suspension.

I'm sorry, but what you've written is complete rubbish. The weight distribution is 50:50 on an IS300h. Additionally tyre wear is user dependent and not excessive. 

Poor grip on the rear? The vehicle is completely stable and its extremely difficult to get the rear end out on it. Don't really know what you mean by poor grip when it clearly has good grip.

 

[Sazabi2001]

6 hours ago, rayaans said:

I'm sorry, but what you've written is complete rubbish. The weight distribution is 50:50 on an IS300h. Additionally tyre wear is user dependent and not excessive. 

Poor grip on the rear? The vehicle is completely stable and its extremely difficult to get the rear end out on it. Don't really know what you mean by poor grip when it clearly has good grip.

 

I'm not the only person in this forum complaining the traction of IS300h..

Lexus statement on the 2017 IS facelift has very specific statement on updating the bushing on the suspension:

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/what-has-changed-with-2017-lexus-is/

Quote

 

The front double wishbone suspension (above) has a new, more rigid, forged aluminium lower arm assembly together with more rigid bushing – changes that bring no weight penalty and contribute to better steering response at cruising speeds. Changes have been made to the spring and damper settings to improve control and yaw response, and the power steering’s ECU settings have been revised in order to achieve better communication with the driver.

At the opposite end of the car, the rear multi-link suspension has also gained new bushes, anti-roll bar, shock absorber components and revised damper settings.

 

And what they did in to improve the rear wheel grip specifically:

Quote

The dynamic performance of IS has been improved through revisions to the front and rear suspension and steering. As a result of these measures, all models demonstrate better ride quality, body control, rear-wheel traction and straight-line stability, as well as better steering response and feedback.

So, the IS from 2013 to 2017 has poor grip to the rear. Its so poor that the company has to change bushing to improve it. It's relative rare to update bushing in facelift model, not in the 2016 GS and neither 2020 LS. In fact, the only car I remember has bushing update specifically during facelift was the Honda S2000 AP1 to AP1.5 / AP2. As far as I know, manufactures don't like harder bushing in the first place, it will introduce vibration and wear to the suspension and drivetrain. Production / road cars tend to have softest bushing they could fit unless there is a problem, and using harder / rigid bushing is the last resort to correct suspension / ride quality problem in most case.

Also, its not the value of 50% that makes the car feel a bit rear weight bias, its the weight outside the axle. IS put the hybrid Battery quite the rear axle, while most of the engine is within the front axle, even you have 50/50 weight distribution you still have significant amount of weight bias to the rear.

 

Compare to GS, LS and LC, all other RWD Lexus have the Battery within the rear axle, that's a reason for it.

 

It doesn't matter whether your feeling that it  stable or good grip, Toyota being the most cost-saving company in the world, they won't revise the suspension unless there was a problem. Please note that the wording of the statement from Lexus is specific to the rear wheel traction and straight line stability, which is also the problem I notice on my 2014 model

[Linas.P]

11 hours ago, Sazabi2001 said:

I think it's not the suspension, but the weight distribution of the IS300h / RC300h make it feel so bad.

IS / Mark X isn't bad for performance, RC in fact is quite great I think. RC-F was doing OK in racing:

How it did in racing is irrelevant for road car - when preparing for racing they have obviously change geometry of suspension, if not the components themselves, then they were substantially modified. Yes it may be same "type" of suspension, but racing car suspension shares nothing in common with road car. All angles, tyres, track width will be different.

The hybrid weight distribution is indeed 50:50 for IS and RC (well 51:49 for IS, but that is close enough). My comment was related to what I have and RC200t has 54:46 (it is ever worse for RC-F - 55:45). Cannot really comment much more on the wear on rear tyres in IS300h, but considering that 200t has same suspension argument can be made that 300h rear suspension is "overloaded", but I doubt this could be significant enough - this equates to less than 50kg after-all.

If there is significant wear when driving hard, then I would relate it to other thing - like high/instant torque from low RPM from electric motor, too soft bushings leaving too much of compliance in hard cornering, thus creating less than ideal angles (equal to running miss-aligned wheels) and overall too soft suspension which dives too much on the pressure. So I doubt it is because hybrid Battery placement was after-thought (which may be true), but because car is simply not set-up with right angles and is too soft for being driven hard.

Talking about any Lexus so far, I find that suspension balance (not weight distribution) is always set for "safe" driving, that is - the car will always loose the grip in the front before loosing it in the rear... apparently that is considered "safe", I just call it annoying. This is even applicable for IS-Fs, RC-Fs and LC - yes they can do power-slide because they have enough power in engine to overpower grip on rear wheels, but if you just push them into corner equally loaded they will always loose grip in the front first.  

[ganzoom]

Out of no where my wife asked me what I thought about replacing her IS300H last night!! It may have something to do with the fact our 3 year old Tesla Model X just had a new AP computer, and media control unit fitted middle of the week by Tesla. Whilst not life changing been able to do things like watch Netflix without faffing with the phone was helpful when waiting for my daughters Saturday AM activities to finish on a cold/wet day.

 

 

The build in dash cam function is useful, and seem to work well. You can view all the video direct in the car, just plug in a USB memory stick. Watching the videos gives me a headache tough, I don’t think our brains are programmed to try and look at the road from 4 different views at the same point.

 

 

Much more interesting though is the up and coming v11 software, which apparently will allow the FSD visualisation to take over the entire drivers console, in additional to what the car can already ‘see’

 

 

I know my wife loves her IS, its reliable, dependable, efficient, cheap to run, safe (honest have no idea why people think there is a problem with traction), but when you from our Tesla back into the Lexus it really is like going back in time about 20 years…..There is about 1% chance my wife will go for another Lexus to replace the IS, that's despite her knowing how unreliable our Tesla has been, and as I've mentioned the IS has been faultless in every regard. Lexus needs to really up their game if they want to have any hope of attracting new customers in this new world of EV and tech driven industry. The new bar for in-car teach set by Tesla is current so high I don't think the Lexus/Toyota executives can even see it because they just cannot bring themselves to look that far ahead.  

 

[Linas.P]

Nobody denying that Lexus infotainment is dated and that Tesla at the same time has one of the most advanced system in this area. 

That said, having ability to watch Netflix or dash-cam video in car sounds like TV which makes espresso - just a nice gimmick nothing more. Somehow I have never found myself in the situation where I was driving and thought - "heck it would be nice if I could watch Netflix now".

What I am saying - there is no denying Tesla infotainment is better, but at the same time it is completely irrelevant. Yes if both cars would be identical otherwise, I would say "why not!" if you can have reliable and well built car with better infotainment (sorry - 20 years better) of course that is good. But having "gimmicky computer" on wheels does not solve the reliability, build quality and material quality issues Tesla has. 

And here is my solution - if I ever going to need things which Tesla computer does... I will simply take any android or iOS tablet with me. It will show netflix, it will show my dashcam footage, in fact I can even mount it on wents and when not needed I can take it home with me or take it to the plane and continue watching the same series offline.

How about that? I think it is actually better then spending £70k on unreliable and cheaply feeling car, just to have mediocre tablet functionality integrated into infotainment screen.

[royoftherovers]

I do admire Linas, your new found ability to be relatively succinct and far far less meandering.

It is becoming a pleasure to read your musings again.Thanks.

[Linas.P]

@royoftherovers - thanks..

I actually forgotten to mention one key point. Touchscreen controls in cars actually suck... as they require you to take your focus away from the road to use. The screen as big and as complex as Teslas in my opinion literally requires stopping to adjust something as simple climate. Either that or you have to take passengers just so they can control your climate. So with this in mind Lexus centre console may look dated, but it is much more practical when driving. 

Secondly, I would like to separate "infotainment screen" from "drivers dashboard". Yes pre-FL Lexus infotainment screen (8inch) is dated and tiny, but FL IS/RC screens (10.25inch) are completely sufficient for the task they meant to be used for - like GPS, adjusting audio settings, checking fuel consumption etc. One does not need 16inch screen to adjust radio station. Where Lexus infotainment is lacking are areas like android auto/apple car play - built in maps are quite poor compared to google maps or waze and having that ability would elevate them to fully useful system.

But here is "party piece" Lexus F-sport drivers dashboard is in my opinion "best in the market", I have tried several fully digital dashboards (BMW 6, i8, MB E-class) and they all suck - they just look silly - reminds me the "race computers" in rally cars. I much prefer "analog" look on Lexus dashboard and it is both functional and looks stunning and classy at the same time. Problem comes again from Lexus really limiting the functionality, to most basic functions - when you have digital screen it would be possible to make it fully customisable with endless futures, but Lexus only included few basic options and that is it.

In summary, Lexus issue is not that they don't have 16" computer screen instead of dash, but because they never bothered to really polish the software and options which they have in their entertainment system and dashboard. If they make current dash smooth, sensibly laid-out or customisable. That will cover 99% of needs one can reasonably have in the car.

 

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

How about that? I think it is actually better then spending £70k on unreliable and cheaply feeling car, just to have mediocre tablet functionality integrated into infotainment screen.

Actually we'll almost certainly now get Model 3 to replace the IS.

At £47k its actually only £3k more than the list price for our IS300H premier, the cheapest Model 3 which has the same tech as our X is £40k, not much more than the IS.

My wife would have happily spent the same amount on an electric IS with half decent tech, but not only is new IS not on sale in the UK, even if it was it would so far behind in tech its not even funny.

 

Oh the 'gimmicks' are all secondary to the processing power needed for stuff like the below, good luck finding an Android tablet to drive your IS for you :).

Lexus needs to up their game big time to stay relevant.

 

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

even if it was it would so far behind in tech its not even funny.

Lexus needs to up their game big time to stay relevant.

If we talking about EV game - yes I agree Lexus needs to step up their game. Although, I think they are playing long term here. You know my opinion about EV becoming mainstream, that is  - I simply don't believe we will have infrastructure in UK for EVs to take even 10% of the market by 2030. My comment may not age well, but with current charging infrastructure and even energy production this is unlikely to happen.

Yes you lucky to be one who has means to charge Teslas and who does sort of driving which is covered by 200-300 range, but sadly majority of people in UK are not like that. With this in mind I would say it would have been enough for Lexus to do PHEVs so that they could be purchased on company car schemes, opening big market for the brand. For whatever reason they decided that having single half-baked engine (300h) across the range was enough... and it clearly didn't work out. I certainly could not get RC300h on the company because it has 149g/km co2 and the maximum allowed now is 75.

It is actually quite funny as our old company car scheme terms and condition had Lexus LS600h on the cover... Clearly at some point Lexus was considered future brand with it's hybrids, but they quickly lost initiative.

If we talking about technology, yes Lexus is bit behind, but Tesla is behind on build quality, materials, reliability and other things which I find much more important for the car as form of transportation. The infotainment system is "nice to have" but by no means a feature which would make hugely impact my choice of the car.. as long as it is acceptable quality. Lexus infotainment in FL models is acceptable quality and if not for lack of apple car play and android auto I would even call it satisfactory.

[ganzoom]

15 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

The infotainment system is "nice to have" but by no means a feature which would make hugely impact my choice of the car.. 

Its not just infotainment, its the autonomous driving features Tesla/Wyamo etc are pioneering.

I honestly cannot think how any of the established manufacturers like Toyota/VAG cannot be feeling very uneasy about the future. 

This technology is going to change how we all views what cars can and should be able to do, and our IS300H really feels like bringing a stick to a gun fight.

I just cannot get my head around how a brand like Toyota with so much resource at its disposal can be left so far behind in such a short time. Tesla didn't even deliver their first Model S till late 2011!! 

A £40k Model 3 can now do this, how far will a £40K Lexus get in the same situation with no driver input?? Its nuts so far ahead Tesla is in tech, and even more nuts the likes of Toyota have just watched it happen with no reaction.

 

[Linas.P]

You can continue to ignore these facts, be Tesla fan and have your ear plugged, but in that case we cannot have any further discussion.

I have already responded several times to you claims. Tesla "autopilot" is scam.... it is not autonomy and they not "pioneering" anything. It is very basic Level 2 system and the only way Tesla differs from other companies is that they allow real people to risk their safety and test their defective system on the roads. Please go back, see what I have said, if needed do you research and then we can discuss what Tesla "autopilot" is and what it isn't. If I am wrong somewhere I am fine with that, but you will have to use some fact to prove it.

Showing beta software driving on empty road does not prove anything, car is still not ready to self drive on the roads, laws are not ready to allow it (for good reason) - end of story.

For the purposes it could be used I don't see Tesla autopilot being any better than LSS+. Yes it would be cool if car can take me to work and go back to park itself at home, or take me home from the pub, but that is not near future and until then this functionality is just a gimmick. 

[ganzoom]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You can continue to ignore these facts, be Tesla fan and have your ear plugged. 

Really? Ours last cars in the family have been Tesla, Lexus, Nissan, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Renault. I've advised our immediate family to get Mazda, Mercedes, Lexus, Nissan.

We literally have no brand loyalty, none at all, we buy the best value and most relevant cars to us at any time for our budget. 

But right now, in the last few weeks there is only one car brand I can recommend to anyone, and sadly its not Lexus.

[Linas.P]

38 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

the best value and most relevant cars to us

But right now, in the last few weeks there is only one car brand I can recommend to anyone, and sadly its not Lexus.

I have seen your ownership experience on your Model X. I really liked you honest and detailed posts in that tread (UX300e I believe) and I was shocked how terrible is Tesla. I knew that Tesla is not reliable, I have seen it's terrible build quality and cheap materials first hand, but looking at that thread I realised that Teslas as are even worse to own than I could have ever imagined. 

Sprinkling some gimmicky beta tech does not solve fundamental issues with the car and if you looking for good value cars then Tesla is not one of them. I cannot see how you can justify recommending Tesla for anyone except of tech. reviewers and volunteer testers considering how atrociously unreliable your Tesla was.

I am not saying it should be Lexus either - that is fair enough. But just looking back to your own posts I cannot see how could look past that.

____

Note: just for reference any of below faults in 1year/10k miles would make a brand no-go for me. Having 15 major faults in 2 years and 30k miles is literally a disaster - I would not want to touch such car with a stick even when wearing full HAZMAT:

On 11/23/2019 at 9:15 AM, ganzoom said:

Our Tesla has needed this list of things fixing at 2 year old car and 30k.
1: Drivers side A pillar rebuilt 
2: New sun visors
3: New steering wheel
4: New door latches FWD
5: New door motor passenger side
6: New rear hatch latch 
7: New FWD sensors
8: New drivers seat
9: New front suspension links
10: New front drive shafts
11: New key fobs
12: New MCU screen
13: UV treatment for new MCU screen.

In addition, (14) the driver door latch got stuck a few weeks ago and I couldn't close the door, and (15) the front lower suspension links is now making a knocking noise!!

vs.

In contrast our IS300H has been faultless at nearly 5 years old, and if you open the bonnet its looks still brand new but just a covering of dust you would expect if you leave anything uncleaned for 5 years!!

[Spacewagon52]

15 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

But right now, in the last few weeks there is only one car brand I can recommend to anyone, and sadly its not Lexus.

Again this is horses for courses. Gang, in your posts that I have read, you are a great advocate for electric vehicles. Considering you own a Lexus and have "experienced" the reliability of a Tesla, I am surprised you still advocate buying one. I thought you might consider a rival EV make. If the tech is too intoxicating in the Tesla, then I understand your viewpoint. However, for most Lexus owners on here trying to run a car like Tesla, just sounds like a nightmare.

[Overland]

In my opinion, if I decide to quit with Lexus (I hope no) the only alternative I would consider is a Tesla, taking of course all the eventually risk.

[Spacewagon52]

Call me a old fashioned and out of step with the modern world but..........

If this were 1876, I think I would rather ride a thoroughbred race horse than one of these:-

 

 

[Linas.P]

16 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

Again this is horses for courses. Gang, in your posts that I have read, you are a great advocate for electric vehicles. Considering you own a Lexus and have "experienced" the reliability of a Tesla, I am surprised you still advocate buying one. I thought you might consider a rival EV make. If the tech is too intoxicating in the Tesla, then I understand your viewpoint. However, for most Lexus owners on here trying to run a car like Tesla, just sounds like a nightmare.

It would be nightmare by any standards... Just look at it - half car got broken in 2 years and 30k miles. Question - what will be left of it after 5years/60k miles? What the resale value would be. Even most unreliable car brands today are better - I know horror stories about new Range Rovers, but even then it is like 3-4 things going wrong in 3 years, not 15 in 2. I obviously appreciate that all this was likely covered by warranty, but who wants to get-up in the morning with plans to go somewhere and realise they cannot close drivers doors.... this is bleeping nightmare!

@Spacewagon52 Here again I agree with your above post - key thing in the car is dependability. If car is not reasonably reliable then everything else pretty much does not matter. Throw self-driving, dry cleaning, espresso making into it - everything does not matter if in the morning I cannot be sure I will go, press start button and it will take me where I need to go. If you can have baseline dependability, then it is fine to start adding gizmos and then we can start comparing which car wins "top-trumps". But if car fails to start, then it is noting else than nice drive-way decoration. 

Yes all cars have faults, I just had one recently in my car which was as well solved by warranty. but 15 faults in 2 years - that is basically a fault every 6 weeks. And again it depends what fault it is - in my car it was electric seat motor struggling to work. It still worked, but was low and sometimes I would need to lift myself forward to be able to raise the back of the seat. So that is sort of fault you can live with, you can still use the car and it is still safe. And my car has 64k miles/4years - that is twice the age and mileage and I assume previous owner must have been obese as seat wear is above average.

[dutchie01]

I dont think you can compare toyota and tesla, its just ridiculous. Toyota is building some 11 MILLION cars each year and Tesla 500k. Hats off to the Tesla people as starting as a software company they are now learning to build motorcars. ( i remember a niche manufacturer telling it is easy to build an engine but trying to make door fit exactly is something completely different...). Toyota as we all know does know a thing or 2 about car design and how to make it work. If Toyota does not have EVs at the moment it is out of strategy and not because they dont know how to do it. Their route is Hybrid, Now introducing Plug in Hybrid and in some years when the market is there go for EV. Remember toyota eis NOT AT ALL affected by the EU Co2 regulations so they are in a different position than the European manufacturers.

The only reason Tesla has become a success overnight is because of fiscal stimulation and tax breaks for company car drivers. Take these away and the cars will be unsellable.